What Would Make MFR Balanced?

[Jadedcat]

As a mod pack creator and a player, I am against any mod author balancing a mod solely because of what another mod does unless its an addon for that mod. Something like Power Convertors or Charge Pads. Otherwise if its a stand alone mod the most I will request is a config option. Config options are where mod pack devs should be doing balance. Mod developers should build the mod the way they want to play. That's why MFR uses TE recipes in the FTB packs. Because that puts their material cost at or above the other alternatives. Its also why some packs have energy requirement changes for MFR to keep it on the same level as the alternatives. MFR costs more energy to run than a Forestry farm.

Spoiler

MFR

Single Blocks
Higher Energy Cost
Lower Material Cost
Requires external transport to auto refill planter
Requires external machines for producing fertilizer
Requires another machine and more transport for fertilizing
Requires upgrades


Forestry

Multiblock - but still a smaller space then a max size MFR farm
Lower energy cost
Slightly higher material cost
Requires fertilizer and water
Auto refills seeds/saplings
Needs transport for fertilizer/output
Requires a programmed circut board for type of farm
Can upgrade the trees for faster growth/ output


Some people prefer multi-block structures some prefer single block. If they both have the same cost and do the same thing I don't see the "imbalance" . The fertilizer from MFR and the Sprinkler from Open Blocks and the Watering Can from Extra Utilities are what make any farm go incredibly fast, including Forestry farms.

Personally I prefer to use MFR for my farms because I like the single (technically triple) block setup. Then I can use my spare time to go do bees or breed trees and butterflies or build convoluted factory systems. Farming just isn't where I want to spend my time. The only multi-block structures I really love are smelteries , alvearies and boilers. Otherwise I just find them to be boring. For me its oh yay I have to place specific blocks in a specific order to plant wheat... meh. I'd rather build a tetris engine.. more fun for me.

But to each their own. Just please consider that mods are not meant to be played with other mods, they are balanced first against themselves. Even though many mod authors do try and keep from completely breaking other mods. Most balance spots are in the configs.

[DOUBLEPOST=1389181806][/DOUBLEPOST]As a moderator:

Play nice y'all are borderline on breaking the personal attacks rules. Opinions are fine. Attacking other people because of an opinion is not.

 

[Golrith]

"The only multi-block structures I really love are smelteries and boilers"

Wait, does that mean you hate Alveries? Thought you were the Bee Queen (or Queen Bee..)


OT I find that where mods have a TE recipe option in their config, they generally work well in a modded environment. Brings the mods together by sharing crafting components.
I do think the energy use of MFR should be doubled in the config, especially if forestry is in the pack. With forestry the player needs to spend a lot of time breeding their uber tree which out performs MFR. Not only that, with MFR you get a lot of useful (and not so useful) side products from Sludge.

 

[Jadedcat]

"The only multi-block structures I really love are smelteries and boilers"

Wait, does that mean you hate Alveries? Thought you were the Bee Queen (or Queen Bee..)


OT I find that where mods have a TE recipe option in their config, they generally work well in a modded environment. Brings the mods together by sharing crafting components.
I do think the energy use of MFR should be doubled in the config, especially if forestry is in the pack. With forestry the player needs to spend a lot of time breeding their uber tree which out performs MFR. Not only that, with MFR you get a lot of useful (and not so useful) side products from Sludge.

Pft I forgot those were multiblocks

 

[immibis]

I still want to know: What is MFR unbalanced against?

Edit: Someone said Forestry earlier and I even replied to them. Note to self: don't post after 1 am.

 

[ScorpioOld]

Honestly I do not understand all those discussions about balance. If you take tedious mod A and then balance mod B to be on par with mod A. As a result you force people use mod C which becomes better than both A and B.

I love MFR as it is now because it perfectly suits my play style. If it will be more tedious to get blocks of MFR then I will simply cheat blocks, end of the story.

I noticed, when people start talking about balancing mod they mean something like GT balance, i.e. they simply want to force people to struggle more.

 

[Jadedcat]

Honestly I do not understand all those discussions about balance. If you take tedious mod A and then balance mod B to be on par with mod A. As a result you force people use mod C which becomes better than both A and B.

I love MFR as it is now because it perfectly suits my play stile. If it will be more tedious to get blocks of MFR then I will simply cheat blocks, end of the story.

I noticed, when people start talking about balancing mod they mean something like GT balance, i.e. they simply want to force people to struggle more.

Thats why I think balance should be left to configs. A player can change the configs to increase difficulty the way feels best to them. Admittedly I am biased but thats what I did with MF2. Its the whole point of MF2 is balancing a set of mods using configs. Blood Magic currently sticks out a bit as I need to do some more work there, but the other mods feel balanced. Because configs.

 

[Golrith]

I still want to know: What is MFR unbalanced against?

Edit: Someone said Forestry earlier and I even replied to them. Note to self: don't post after 1 am.

MFR is unbalanced against some users perception.

You can gain a ton of resources quite quickly and easily, so some players think it's too easy. But that's why there are configs to adjust the recipes (if TE is present), and to adjust power usage and work (in some cases).

All hail the configs! Config files are increasingly becoming more and more flexible for personal taste and/or mod pack goals. Shame that most people don't look at them!

 

[ScorpioOld]

You can gain a ton of resources quite quickly and easily, so some players think it's too easy.

In my perception this is exactly the point why I want to build tree farm in first place! I do not want to punch wood with axe, I want to focus on other projects. Last time I had Steve's cart, MFR and Rotary Craft farms. I am perfectly fine with all how it is now.

 

[b0bst3r]

I still want to know: What is MFR unbalanced against?

Heh I typed this long 8 paragraph reply to this and proof read it and thought hey that's my opinion and that basically made me delete the whole thing because that said it all.

 

[Golrith]

In my perception this is exactly the point why I want to build tree farm in first place! I do not want to punch wood with axe, I want to focus on other projects. Last time I had Steve's cart, MFR and Rotary Craft farms. I am perfectly fine with all how it is now.

Exactly, some people, myself included, just feel that the default recipes/energy costs are too cheap for the benefit the tree farm provides. When compared against vanilla, it's saving you time, item durability damage and possibly XP.
Plus, MFR is more then just tree farms. Add in a sludge boiler, and you get nice supply of clay (plus other stuff) from your trees/crops.

Hence the mod has a fairly nice config file to allow adjustments.

 

[ScorpioOld]

just feel that the default recipes/energy costs are too cheap for the benefit the tree farm provides. When compared against vanilla, it's saving you time, item durability damage and possibly XP.

You and some people have this filling fine. The second thing what I build after TE is AE, because I do not like chests and barrels. Do you really believe if I do not want to use vanilla chests you need to balance AE to be on par?

 

[Yusunoha]

I personally would like it if MFR did some more things with their upgrades for the machines... having about a dozen of upgrades purely for range is a bit.... meh. I would rather prefer it if there were some upgrades for range, some for speed, some for efficiency and so on... and for the ones saying they like all the range upgrades because it allows them to precisely configure the range of the machines... how about another upgrade that'll allow you to actually select the area the machine works in. so for example the machines works in a 9x9 area, but you can configure what blocks in that 9x9 area the machine should work in.

 

[Jadedcat]

Btw Ticon tools are way unbalanced compared to vanilla. And IC2 laser drils... zomg OP. And immibis's liquid xp.. good heavens dude thats incredibly unbalanced compared to vanilla enchanting. And we probably shouldn't look too closely at bees that can give you every resource in the game, or pipes that move items cause those are really OP compared to hoppers and chests...

 

[Loufmier]

Btw Ticon tools are way unbalanced compared to vanilla. And IC2 laser drils... zomg OP. And immibis's liquid xp.. good heavens dude thats incredibly unbalanced compared to vanilla enchanting. And we probably shouldn't look too closely at bees that can give you every resource in the game, or pipes that move items cause those are really OP compared to hoppers and chests...

and if change the perspective - it's not mods that OP it's vanilla that sux.

 

[casilleroatr]

I personally would like it if MFR did some more things with their upgrades for the machines... having about a dozen of upgrades purely for range is a bit.... meh. I would rather prefer it if there were some upgrades for range, some for speed, some for efficiency and so on... and for the ones saying they like all the range upgrades because it allows them to precisely configure the range of the machines... how about another upgrade that'll allow you to actually select the area the machine works in. so for example the machines works in a 9x9 area, but you can configure what blocks in that 9x9 area the machine should work in.

I wouldn't be surprised if you already knew this but I thought I would mention it just in case. The planter can only plant saplings on dirt (maybe with a few exceptions) do you could mark out areas where the planter couldn't plant by putting stone or any other non-plantable block inside the range.

 

[HeffronCM]

All this talk of difficulty and balance, based around creating infinite power from a tree farm. Stop burning trees! Heck, give us a mod or config option that makes wood products not work as fuel. If you really need the mod nerfed because you can't not use it, then develop some willpower.

 

[SonOfABirch]

Btw Ticon tools are way unbalanced compared to vanilla. And IC2 laser drils... zomg OP. And immibis's liquid xp.. good heavens dude thats incredibly unbalanced compared to vanilla enchanting. And we probably shouldn't look too closely at bees that can give you every resource in the game, or pipes that move items cause those are really OP compared to hoppers and chests...

lol XD
Thats just improving sucky parts of the game (isn't that what a mod is supposed to do in the first place? )

 

[sciguyryan]

Btw Ticon tools are way unbalanced compared to vanilla. And IC2 laser drils... zomg OP. And immibis's liquid xp.. good heavens dude thats incredibly unbalanced compared to vanilla enchanting. And we probably shouldn't look too closely at bees that can give you every resource in the game, or pipes that move items cause those are really OP compared to hoppers and chests...

Vanilla is so OP. I mean seriously. Zombies drop rotten flesh and you can EAT that?! Infinite free food? What about stone? All those free tools. I am offended. Please, someone take a nerfbat to it and fix this nonsense now!

 

[Loufmier]

I am offended. Please, someone take a nerfbat to it and fix this nonsense now!

Ghostcrawler has left Blizzard, so no nerfbats for you.

 

[SixOnTheBeach]

While I am definitely enjoying the debate, I agree with jaded, it needs to stay a debate. Everyone needs to calm down a bit. As to regards to immibis, I don't only feel it is better than forestry, it is by far better and easier to get into than almost all other mods including tree farms. In regards to jaded, pipes and hoppers aren't intended to do the same thing. Hoppers can collect ground items, pipes cannot(I'm talking normal pipes). Hoppers aren't intended to be used as pipes, people just took advantage of their features to do what they want. Modded adds more tailored items, so you don't have to use something to do what it's not made for. Would you make a piping system solely out of diamond or obsidian pipes? You could, but it would be expensive and inefficient.