Well... I think one thing everyone here can agree on is making the upgrades for MFR require the one below it, and maybe lapis being a bigger upgrade then +1 lol
What Would Make MFR Balanced?
- Thread starter SixOnTheBeach
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That, I think, would be a fair mechanic without making things too Gregy.
Depends on how far you up the power usage. It may be a bit on the cheap side right now, but most of the 'balancing' I've seen people promote is making the costs so prohibitively high that you might as well not even bother. If you do so, do it in moderation. Steps at a time. Do testing until it feels right. Unless you want GregTech levels of tedium, that is.
No, I don't agree, I think it's fine like it is. I am starting to really hate calls of X mod is OP and X mod does this better then Y mod. I'm fine with if something is insanely powerful, like turning dirt into diamonds, then yes it needs some balance. Most of the suggestions I've seen here are more like trying to punish players for wanting something done easy rather then having to set up it's own mini infrastructure to get anything from it.
You are still stuck on things like "easy" vs "hard" when the conversation is actually revolving around "quicker" vs "longer"... MFR is really, really, REALLY cheap for what you can get, is that OP (I think OP can be defined in this case by a single mod that really out produces everything else when you look at what you put into it) I think it is. I love this mod, it's my favorite "farming" mod in the game besides quarries. Quarries require you to make wood gears, then turn those to stone, then iron/gold/diamond.... All I am saying about the upgrades is if someone said "Tomorrow you will have to upgrade them based on a tiered system" I would say "Yeah I totally get that, makes a lot of sense"... That isn't "punishing" players for wanting an "easier" game, it's changing the recipes to reflect that you still need to put some time into the game before you can just set it to creative....
Lapis, I just feel bad for the little guy... It's like Pluto, stuck way out there where you have to make an effort to get to it yet everyone wants to take it's manhood away...
It is more of a "mods with power shouldn't be powered reliably by vanilla trees" statement than anything else. I focused on the aspects of trees a lot, but the fact is that they are only as powerful as the mod makers have allowed trees to become. In vanilla and in MFR, trees aren't "strong" at all, but as soon as you throw in something like the basic generator in IC2, or the heat generator in Mekanism, or the steam dynamo in TE, or the boiler in railcraft, it is only then that we have to bother with balancing how easy it is players can automate trees.
Forestry is an interesting example because it both provides a tree farm while using trees as a power source. With the most recent balancing in forestry, to get decent energy you have to go into tree breeding to get specialized trees with specialized sapling drops. And many players don't like this change, since the end result is that they have to deal with a complicated RNG system for decent power.
If anyone is putting multiple mods into a pack and distributing that pack for use in multiplayer, then cross-mod balance must be considered. But, with so much capable only from Vanilla trees (which all mods should be balanced around), I'm surprised that mods haven't taken them into consideration. That said, if the complaint isn't about power, but about how well MFR machines function as compared to other mods, then I do wonder how to balance those. I'm not sure what these functions might be, since no one has really bothered to mention them other than power production and consumption, but I do like the idea of requiring upgrades to need their previous tier to be crafted.
Mystcraft is OP
Not sure how you get that I'm stuck on things like "easy" and "hard". I just think your trying to call for balance when none is required. MFR is only OP when COMPARED TO OTHER MODS. Otherwise the mod is fine. I don't agree with what your trying to force a change when there are config options to balance the game out and make it take "longer" for you to get things. Don't try to force everyone down the one narrow path when there is CLEARLY two other paths that YOU may choose.
My experience in my current pack:
Running my base currently on 3 steam dynamos
I have a gold upgrade tree farm constantly running to make charcoal
Along side that a normal gold upgrade farm constantly running, a gold upgrade ore berry farm, and various mob grinders scattered about to deal with the locals (running zombie awareness mod, so lots of visitors each night), a disenchanter and enchanter.
I've doubled the power usage of MFR (and quadrupled the sludge boiler), have haven't actually noticed an impact on my power usage. The tree farm connected by leadstone conduits now demands more energy then the leadstone can actually supply (so I will need to upgrade), but it's still able to cut down the trees fast enough even though it's throttled on supplied power.
When I occasionally make use of the disenchanter/enchanter the internal buffer drains near instantly and doesn't fill while running, they are connected with Hardened Conduits.
To me, it feels better. If I needed to maximise my tree farm, I now need the more expensive conduits. That's adding an extra cost without mucking about with recipes.
Edit: Thing is with trees, since they near Instant Grow from sapling to full grown adult, there's no way they could be balanced once you get to automation. Vanilla sets the energy level of Logs in a furnance, since you have to manually chop those trees down. Once automation is in, the efficiency is crazily high.
Why should a Mod Dev think along those lines? All mods are designed originally to be played by themselves. Sure a lot of mods these days are balancing themselves around the fact they are usually included with certain other mods, but why should they? Doing so extends the design stage as they have to first compare against their mod and make sure things are still balanced when they release feature X, which is fine, but then if they have to keep up with mods A, B and C which all do similar things to what feature X does, so they have to make sure they balance feature X with all the other mods. And on this subject, who decides which mod is the most "balanced"? I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate someone coming in and saying "Forestry is such a bad mod because all it's recipes are too expensive", so why do something similar to a different mod?
You are absolutely right here, server owners are the exact ones which have to decide how they want their balance to be, don't like how mod x does feature y? look for a config option, no config option? look for an alternative means of dealing with it, can't find a good way of dealing with it? don't include the mod. As it currently stands there are PLENTY of config options to play around with MFR to suit it to your or your servers needs. I still see no reason to change the mod.If anyone is putting multiple mods into a pack and distributing that pack for use in multiplayer, then cross-mod balance must be considered. But, with so much capable only from Vanilla trees (which all mods should be balanced around), I'm surprised that mods haven't taken them into consideration. That said, if the complaint isn't about power, but about how well MFR machines function as compared to other mods, then I do wonder how to balance those. I'm not sure what these functions might be, since no one has really bothered to mention them other than power production and consumption, but I do like the idea of requiring upgrades to need their previous tier to be crafted.
Mystcraft is OP
MFR already seems fairly balanced with TE, what do you find wrong with it?
Edit: I clearly wasn't thinking when I wrote this, the OP didn't even mention TE.
New question: What is MFR unbalanced against?
Edit: I clearly wasn't thinking when I wrote this, the OP didn't even mention TE.
New question: What is MFR unbalanced against?
The major thoughts of the thread have been how MFR (harvester in particular) is OP when compared to other forms of automated farms, such as forestry. I personally think it's fine the way it is but oh well.
If you want MFR to be like Forestry, why not just use Forestry instead?
Vanilla trees aren't a different mod. I guess it was dropped in the drafts somewhere, but the ability to amass wood is quite easy, even if you are just using a vanilla axe with vanilla enchantments.
I'd love to know if the planter or harvester boosts tree growth and if so it needs to be reduced, I have never seen trees grow like they do when MFR plants them. If this is a vanilla mechanic maybe on larger farms they should skip planting alternate rows to slow down growth.
To me the growth rate is what gives MFR it's "OPness", slow that down and problem solved.
Also I think the new TE recipes are pretty good balance wise too, the DSU one is extremely hard recipe compared to vanilla.
To me the growth rate is what gives MFR it's "OPness", slow that down and problem solved.
Also I think the new TE recipes are pretty good balance wise too, the DSU one is extremely hard recipe compared to vanilla.
Yup, you totally didn't even read let alone COMPREHEND anything you responded to. I said I love this mod and love to use it. You are the one forcing you're way into a theoretical discussion about comparing this mod to others that (even if you don't believe it) are in the same pack... You're ability to not read or comprehend are astonishing.
Let me repeat myself and paraphrase it like I am speaking to a 6 year old.
"IF" "IF (I am going to pause here and restate "IF" there was a (did I mention IF, if not then I hope you can understand I am only talking about IF) change done to balance this against other "farming" mods in terms of resource cost and time spent, again ONLY IF (before you go off on some Stalin'esque "FORCE FORCE FORCE FORCE" tirade again) a change was made then I could see the tiered upgrades being a really good choice"
Is that more clear?[DOUBLEPOST=1389179065][/DOUBLEPOST]
No they dont grow faster, you are just seeing more trees compacted into a smaller area. thus it appears to grow faster (unless of course you have a fertilizer setup on one side)
With a vanilla tree farm, you get wood while you're at the tree farm hitting trees with an axe.
With any automated tree farm, you get wood while you're hiding cicadas behind blocks in other peoples' bases. That makes the balance completely different.
Same thing happens if you plant a big square of saplings manually.
I'm sorry, I thought this was a debate not a sludge pool of filth. I never once doubted that you loved the mod, and the whole "forcing into discussions" thing, it's a public forum, get over it. I never once said that it was the only mod there.
Since your adamant about personal attacks I think I'll leave the rest of your post alone and try to explain things so they are less confusing to what I meant.
You were saying that it's not a matter of "easy vs hard" but a matter of "quicker vs longer", many would argue that this is in part the same thing. I personally do not and never did think that longer = harder. My reference to "easy" was merely that by all intents and purposes, any kind of automation on something that you have to do manually is easy. The whole point of my post (which you seemed to miss by the way) was that since there are config options already in place so that you, or anyone else for that matter, can make the mod take as long as they want it to without changing the mod at all. By changing the mod to be longer by default means that everyone has to put up with changes you wanted regardless of how they feel about it. Also assuming that everyone agrees with you is not a good idea. I also disagree that having farms, be they wood or metals, is the same as setting things to creative mode. At the end of the day if you truly do think a mod is OP (and by thinking a mod is OP is not the same as hating it) you can always just not use it.