A good Forestry farm (tree breeding) can easily beat out MFR. We're talking stacks of wood, saplings and apples per tree, the latter two producing massive amounts of liquid fuel.
What Would Make MFR Balanced?
- Thread starter SixOnTheBeach
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Bred trees can, yes. But that has the difficulty of actually breeding for it, which is not a fast and easy process. And, unfortunately, all 'biofuels' got nerfed in engines because of the power of bred Forestry trees. And if you could run those same saplings in MFR, then that'd still be faster than Forestry alone can do.
Plus they're more expensive. And for anyone saying "Don't use it". Why wouldn't I use it? I love it! I just feel it shall be nerfed. However, I wanted everyones opinion on how MUCH to nerf it. And Zenthon, MFR requires no background and requires the whole big multiblock. I disagree that a max size MFR tree farm isnt as good as forestry. I used one of the worst upgrades on Magic Farm 2, and within a couple days had several hundered stacks of logs, charcoal, saplings, and apples.
I would put MFR against Forestry any day of the week... by the time you got close to getting your perfectly bred tree I would have 2 (and that is going way slow and building quarries and such as well) 25x25 mfr farms easy as well as the power and AE systems to back them up...
It just is what it is, MFR recipes are really cheap and the power cost is way low.
I'm not arguing that MFR's tree farm isn't way too easy and cheap (it is), I'm just noting that for an invested player Forestry ultimately beats out MFR.
I dont know, I feel for the time invested, say a steves carts farm would be just as good.
If you used SC you could've made 3 farms in the amount of time it took you to make the cart lol.
I don't see how it "beats" mfr in any other way then if mfr was limited to a 17x17 area. but in that case mfr has a fertilizer... so 1 additional block (up to 3 now, still 75% less blocks then Forestry) and MFR has 600% production... Forestry will not beat that...
I get what you are trying to say, you prefer Forestry... That is awesome and I am happy you enjoy that, but even trying to imply that a Forestry tree farm "produces" more then a MFR does... Let's be real here lol, not even close when you look at total expense (total resources base resources (Including bee's and all that)) and MFR beats Forestry in putting the numbers up in every scenario you could think of.
You can literally have a 10x10 MFR farm by the end of the second day and be pushing a quarry using barrels and chests as storage, but with Forestry you can't even think about starting bees yet, not to mention thinking about crossbreeding trees...
I... don't know about that. Also, SC carts dont actively require work, so you can do something else.[DOUBLEPOST=1389166812][/DOUBLEPOST]
10x10?! A quartz upgrade is 17x17 and is 3 quartz...
well 6 quartz, gotta upgrade the harvester as well
And I was including time to get the diamonds for the quarry and all that
Back to the original topic... First thing I would like to see as a "balancing" mechanic is that the upgrades require the one below it as Democretes said... That in and of itself would really change MFR and bring it's cost efficiency down a decent amount...
That's what I do in my Omega Dawn Pack, plus, I've doubled the power requirements (and quadrupled the sludge boiler power requirements).
Yes, it forces you to have to go to the nether for the railcraft option, or get lucky with chainmail drops for Tinkers Construct, or get lucky and find some steel in dungeon chests (mineshafts).
Once you have steel production, it's not a big deal.
As a result in Omega Dawn, every tech mod almost requires steel for you to get started. Gives a consistent feel to the pack and slows the rush to instant technology.
The upgrades are also good idea, and could be done by anyone, as there are mods out there that let you adjust the crafting recipes of anything. Although I'd say that any upgrade to just below gold is as normal, then after that, it's tiered (so a gold needs iron, copper, tin, etc as part of it's crafting).
I don't think it is a matter of being OP insomuch as it is a matter that trees themselves are OP.
In most of my playthroughs, I don't even set up a tree farm for the longest time. I just invest in an Axe of the Stream or a Lumber Axe, clear out a forest after I've automated something else, then replant that forest and wait for it to grow again later. I end up with so much charcoal that I can power most of my devices for weeks. By that time, I've probably converted over to some other kind of power, and I won't need charcoal anymore.
I wonder how much of a power issue this would be if all of the tech mods wouldn't accept charcoal or wood items for power. Trees are essentially free, and you can save on their one and only cost (time) if you use bonemeal, which all of us have undoubtedly gathered chests full while playing. Sure, you can adjust the costs of MFR planter and harvester, then adjust steve's carts, then adjust thaumcraft 4, and make it all about equal to how many materials and how much power is needed for forestry, but that will never stop some lone woodsman from setting up a few automatic machines and tearing down a whole forest by hand with a good axe or turtle.
In the end, one of two things has to happen to make it so trees themselves won't be a problem:
#1: Make it so the basic structures of all mods can't be powered by wood, charcoal, or saplings.
#2: Make it so trees themselves are expensive. Make growing trees require specific fertile land, a large amount of time that can't be fixed with bonemeal, or make a tree convert all nearby dirt/fertile land blocks to gravel each time it is grown (wherein a new process would have to turn gravel back into dirt, then into fertile land). Something along those lines.
There are a lot of things trees can be used for, like for decoration or style, specific devices, unusual resources, but using trees for power in minecraft doesn't seem like a good idea.
In most of my playthroughs, I don't even set up a tree farm for the longest time. I just invest in an Axe of the Stream or a Lumber Axe, clear out a forest after I've automated something else, then replant that forest and wait for it to grow again later. I end up with so much charcoal that I can power most of my devices for weeks. By that time, I've probably converted over to some other kind of power, and I won't need charcoal anymore.
I wonder how much of a power issue this would be if all of the tech mods wouldn't accept charcoal or wood items for power. Trees are essentially free, and you can save on their one and only cost (time) if you use bonemeal, which all of us have undoubtedly gathered chests full while playing. Sure, you can adjust the costs of MFR planter and harvester, then adjust steve's carts, then adjust thaumcraft 4, and make it all about equal to how many materials and how much power is needed for forestry, but that will never stop some lone woodsman from setting up a few automatic machines and tearing down a whole forest by hand with a good axe or turtle.
In the end, one of two things has to happen to make it so trees themselves won't be a problem:
#1: Make it so the basic structures of all mods can't be powered by wood, charcoal, or saplings.
#2: Make it so trees themselves are expensive. Make growing trees require specific fertile land, a large amount of time that can't be fixed with bonemeal, or make a tree convert all nearby dirt/fertile land blocks to gravel each time it is grown (wherein a new process would have to turn gravel back into dirt, then into fertile land). Something along those lines.
There are a lot of things trees can be used for, like for decoration or style, specific devices, unusual resources, but using trees for power in minecraft doesn't seem like a good idea.
That wouldn't affect modded MC in any way except to make everything take a little longer... Mystcraft adds worlds full of biofuel/oil/lava, just need a pumps and are a lot less time consuming then making an actual farm...
If you were playing vanilla (which it sounds like what your thinking about in terms of "fuel") then yes that would really change the game...
Yep, that's basically saying Vanilla is OP. Personally I hate this statement. All in all though if your that worried about it being OP install Gregtech and enable the MFR Gregtech recipes. This way it doesn't matter how OP it's operation is, once an items value is determined as expensive then anything it does (short of giving you creative mode or something very similar) then the item is balanced. The main reasons why people think MFR is OP is mainly due to how good the mod is compared to other mods, which in my opinion is the wrong way of looking at things. Mods should not have to be balanced with other mods, only in terms of Vanilla, that's it.
MFR farms would be perfectly balanced if there was no other automated farms.
The same is true of Thaumcraft's golem automation, Forestry's multifarms, and RotaryCrafts farming implementation. By themselves they are balanced. But throw in others and some will be 'better' than others.
I have MFR in my pack, but I'm trying out golems this time. Those things be cute!
There weren't any when it came out. People forget how old MFR actually is. Plus it's designed to make vanilla tasks automated so that you can go off and do other things like building or exploring. It's very successful at its intended goal.
It's the only MJ/RF based farming implementation in my modpack as I don't have the full MJ trifecta in it. I don't want to require my players to go deep into bees and trees for decent renewables. The nerfing of vanilla saplings in the fermenter was good for Forestry, but it forced all to either go deep into Forestry's trees, spam waaay too many trees, or go for another power option. And I, personally, despite liking the idea of the multifarm, didn't care for the excessively high copper cost or especially the requirement of a non-renewable (apatite) to keep farming. Were Forestry to have a better biomass return from non-Forestry saplings and no longer require apatite then I'd consider adding it to my pack. Until then, MFR is my only MJ/RF based option for farms.