Forge: My list of grievances

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Eyamaz

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Jul 29, 2019
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You do realize forgecraft and forgecraft 2 are testing servers right? They use them not only to test their own mods, but the interactions between those mods. If I remember correctly, FC resets once every two months with the current "stable" builds and FC2 resets every 2 weeks with dev builds.

There are more than just devs as part of FC also. Jadedcat, slowpoke, direwolf20, and Eddie_ruckus are all prominent streamers or youtubers who not only do testing, but also show the public what is being worked on and what to expect. Some of the authors even stream while they code like soaryn.

As far as eloraam, 1.3.x destroyed redpower and she had to rewrite the majority of her code to get it to work again. During that downtime, she was persecuted by her own community and, iirc even received death threats because she hadn't put out an update yet. She almost stopped doing redpower all together because of it.
 

Golrith

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So, there's me expecting a list of issues with the forge mod, but instead, it's a rant about the "forge team" having access to mods before the public. Although it's not just the Forge Team anymore, there's more modders that get invited as time goes along.

Err, hello, they are testing them in a multi-mod environment before release. As Eyamaz mentions, some show the testing to the public, and some also pay attention to what the public's feedback before release.


Let them continue, it means there's less chance of things going wrong on public release, which would just result in a bigger mass of complaints.

ramdor said:
“The way I see it, is that she [Eloraam] develops RP for one single purpose, so that she can play it, which is fair enough I guess.​
This sentence sums up the core issue that I am having with the group of mods authored by the people who were initially responsible for Forge, in general; said problem is not confined exclusively to Red Power 2.

Specifically, there is a major problem of insularity and elitism among these people. I've been getting a very strong impression over the last several months, of a particular closed clique, which refers to itself (to quote Pahimar) as "the Forge community," which congregates on a couple of private servers and spends a lot of time focusing on how awesome it supposedly is. They view themselves as celebrities, putting it fairly simply.

This is just nonsense. I developed mods mainly for Morrowind (plus some for Oblivion and Skyrim). My most popular mod was Creatures, now at version 11. I didn't make the mod for the community, but for myself. I decided to share it, and as a result, the mod developed further and became popular.

Sure, it gave me a buzz at the time, and the mod was even mentioned in a printed publication among others. All that made me feel a bit like a celebrity too.


Problem lies more I think in the community, not in the modders. At some point modders can feel like slaves to the community, it happened to me with Creatures a little bit, so taking a break at times was the best thing.
 

Peppe

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Jul 29, 2019
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There is an equally strong sense at this point, that the modifications which these people develop, are only really intended for the developer clique themselves, and their chosen friends (such as ShadowDragon) to use; I can't remember the last time I saw a public release of IndustrialCraft 2 available from that mod's web site, that wasn't exclusively in FTB, for example. Buildcraft (or the public, non-in-crowd releases, at least) is also showing signs of serious decay, with texture rendering bugs, and the Filler simply destroying blocks it removes, rather than dropping them on the ground. 1.4.7's release of Red Power 2 also has at least one crash bug that I know of, which I've inadvertently triggered multiple times.
...

Filler functionality change was a balance change. Agree or disagree with that change is subjective, believe it has a config option that may or may not work.


I have noticed a pretty good shift in the positive for a lot of mods with 1.5. The ones that aren't stuck behind ad links are moving toward builds being available directly through jenkins source control.

You can get a new IC2 version the minute they build it:
http://ic2api.player.to:8080/job/IC2_lf/
You could have had IC2 going in a 1.5 world in early march. They may not advertise these links on their forum since supporting users is a major headache.

A whole bunch of other mods are available on this Jenkins site:
http://build.technicpack.net/

Every mod handles build and deployment differently, but most are available pretty quickly. If one isn't available and availability is important to you then when you put together your instance pick mods that meet that requirement.
 

Jess887cp

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Jul 29, 2019
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I personally couldn't care less about what the authors do. Sure, a bit more communication would have helped get newer versions of modpacks along, but that's life. Then again, I'm an easygoing guy. The most miffed I ever was about modpacks was when I didn't have the right version of java, and when Lambert said that I always suggested stuff that were already things. (He was right, of course.)

All I'm saying is chill a bit, it's just a game. Unless it's also your work, in which case...whatever.

EDIT: Woah, this thread is going fast, we really need a new topic, asap, before bad stuff happens :c
 

GPuzzle

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Jul 29, 2019
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Did I just read another poorly written full page diatribe that boils down to "they don't communicate enough"? ffs...

Okay, I can't help but laugh.
Also, to you, Petrus, a facepalm.
Why?
I think you have never gone in a creative process, like with Alphas and Betas and Pre-Releases...
I've gone through two.
You understand that just for the sake of having people playing and liking what they create, these modders (especially Elooram, I kind of hate/love her) these modders sometines don't sleep, don't eat and stuff like that, don't you?
Sir, I understand your opinion, but, for fuck's sake, don't bash head-on on Elo, Albaka, SpaceToad or other modders you haven't mentioned here without losing nights of sleep just to make people like you and me happy.
 

Bigglesworth

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The trend towards elitism and insularity has perhaps been most strikingly visible with Eloraam. I've been using her mods since before 1.7.3, and back then, she referred to it as Integrated Redstone. This was back before RP World and a lot of other things; the wiring and the integrated blocks were the only real thing there. Back then, however, she was friendly and a lot more communicative; I used to see her regularly responding to people in the RP Minecraftforums thread. Over time, however, and as the mod got bigger and Forge was developed, that changed. We started hearing less and less from her; and for me, the straw which really broke the camel's back was the fact that ShadowDragon and Direwolf20 were making YouTube videos which featured a 1.4.7 version of RP2, probably three months before there was a public release.

Guy...

You go on about how they are not gods, but then expect people like Eloraam to hold a life together, dayjob that is clearly massively time consuming, and hold your hand to the damn Minecraft prom? These people are not here for your entertainment. They are here for THEIR entertainment, do you understand this?

I do feel the frustration esp with LPers LPing with mods that arnt public for a time that they have no idea about (dick move on their part really) but at the end of the day these mod authors supply us FREE ENTERTAINMENT, yet people still find reasons to bitch and it makes me sick.
 

Bibble

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Jul 29, 2019
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I'm tempted not to post this, purely because the point has been made an awful lot.

From reading your post, and your replies, it seems to focus around a few main points:
- The mods are entities. They have a personality, a life of their own.
- The users of such mods have a right to input/control.

Both of these points are false. The mods are projects of the developers. As such, they are, fundamentally, theirs. If they are released under GPL (or a variant therein), then the code is open source, and modification, etc. is invited. You can take large swathes of it to incorporate into your own mod (provided you also use the GPL). You can make changes, and you can make improvements. However, the main project is still controlled by the author. The directions that they want to take are their own, and there is absolutely no requirement to listen to anyone else at all.

Let's put this into perspective. (Metaphor time, yay!). Lets say that, tomorrow, you write a book. You write a book about Pirates. It's not a perfect book, but you have enjoyed following the characters as they developed, and you have published it so that others can too. The next day, someone comes along and says that your book is bad because it didn't contain dinosaurs, and that you should change it to include dinosaurs. You would rightly send them away with a swift denial. Dinosaurs have no place in your story, and there would be no way to keep the tone, and to introduce them.

Then someone else comes to you. They say that the book is very good, but there wasn't enough about the sails, and how they were made and used. This gets you wondering. Sails do play a part in the story (they make the boats move), but you've just sort of assumed that they were there, and not paid too much attention to them. You think that a book about the sails could be done, but it would be quite boring, and you don't know much about the topic anyway. You send this person away with a much kinder denial, but a denial, nonetheless. If they want to write a book about sails, then that's fine, but it's not something that you want to do.

A final person comes up to you, and says that they really enjoyed the book, but say that it just left the characters hanging there, there was no closure, and that you need to write another book. You say that you do not wish to write another book, you're currently interested in some other projects that you're working on, but you might get around to another version when they're sorted out. The person then says that you need to correct some errors in your book, like on page 83, when the main character goes into the kitchen in the back of the ship, but galleys had their kitchens in the front of the ship. You say that it's all very good, but that sort of change would be quite a lot of work, and, as you said, you have a lot of work on.

The person then says that he seen that you are working on a collaboration with a few other writers. The proofreaders have been leaking aspects of the book, and he's annoyed about it. He thinks that you should focus on listening to your readers a bit more, and less on talking to your friends, and writing your fun collaboration. At this point, you start getting annoyed. This person is demanding things of you just because he liked your book? There's no reason for him to have any input into your work at all! You send him away, and go back to discussing where Peter the Pirate is sailing to next.


Now, I'm aware that you are annoyed that various mod devs seem to be paying more attention to each other than to you, but my general response is that that is their right. I'm not going to try and tell anyone how to spend their time.

If you want to contribute to projects which allow it, then you are welcome to do so, if you want to start a new one, or extend an old one, then that is also your right. What is not your right, however, is trying to dictate what someone else does with their work, because it doesn't fit with what you think it should.
 

Malkuth

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Jul 29, 2019
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I don't understand this post I'm sorry..

But other then RedPower... Pretty much every Dev contributes to these forums and the Reddit page... And post live streams and has a bunch of players like Direwolf posting videos of there stuff..

Serious whats the point of your complaint again?

You sound jealous. To be honest.. They make mods which thousands of people play. They have a tendency to be a little popular because of that. And some of the post on these forums I have seen from some of the community like yourself.. I would go hide in a corner too.. Some of you people are complete Cray cray.

Its so easy to forget that these people put hundreds of hours into making a mod... They don't have to make.. Never make money off.. And deal with people like you.. To me these people are heroes.. They give so much.. And receive so little..
 

King Lemming

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You want to be annoyed at Eloraam for being silent? Factor in the whole "engineer" thing and the threats on top of it. WTF is wrong with people anymore? I'll admit that a bit more communication would be nice from her, but that's because some of us genuinely care and see her as a person and not a mod-creation machine.

As far as the rest of your vitriol, we don't see ourselves as elitist. We can address the reality of it and know that yes, we make some very popular mods. We all know and openly acknowledge we aren't gods. Nobody on FC wants your fealty, they just want to make their mods without drama and nonsense, both of which your "list of grievances" has in spades.

Just stop. No community is perfect, but the absurdity you are throwing around here would suggest that it's far worse than it actually is.
 

Lambert2191

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Specifically, there is a major problem of insularity and elitism among these people. I've been getting a very strong impression over the last several months, of a particular closed clique, which refers to itself (to quote Pahimar) as "the Forge community," which congregates on a couple of private servers and spends a lot of time focusing on how awesome it supposedly is. They view themselves as celebrities, putting it fairly simply.
This isn't exactly their fault. Nor any "celebrity" that gets that sort of status. It's the people that are taking an interest in them, that see them as pseudo celebrities that make them that. I don't believe that any of the modders have changed as much as you make them out to have. Eloraam isn't communicating much now because of circumstance, because she is busy with her real life and her job. Not to mention the death threats. Would you seriously want to talk to a community that included members such as those despicable wankbags?

Petrus said:
There is an equally strong sense at this point, that the modifications which these people develop, are only really intended for the developer clique themselves, and their chosen friends (such as ShadowDragon) to use;
I play on a beta server named Resonant Rise. There are quite a few updates to this pack because of bugs and crashes. THAT is what Forgecraft and Forgecraft 2 is. A place for the modders themselves to experience these bugs and crashes so that they can fix them before putting a release out to ungrateful self entitled idiots like yourself. If they released buggy modpacks, it would be the likes of you that scream the loudest. Lose Lose situation? Oh, and ShadwDragn is a modder too, ever heard of soul shards?

Petrus said:
the Filler simply destroying blocks it removes, rather than dropping them on the ground.
This is intentional, your aguments to the contrary are baseless.

Petrus said:
I think the real problem is the fact that there has been far too much fawning and genuflection towards these people. They are not Gods, but unfortunately most players tend to regard them as such, and as mentioned above, I've really been starting to get the impression that it has gone to their heads. I don't think we should be deliberately rude or insulting to them, but I don't think it's good for them if we worship them excessively, either.
I can be accused of this, I do get sorta fanboyish when one of the modders replies to me on the likes of Twitter etc... but the fact that they DO reply is evidence that their "pseudo celebrity status" hasn't gone to their heads.

Petrus said:
The trend towards elitism and insularity has perhaps been most strikingly visible with Eloraam. I've been using her mods since before 1.7.3, and back then, she referred to it as Integrated Redstone. This was back before RP World and a lot of other things; the wiring and the integrated blocks were the only real thing there. Back then, however, she was friendly and a lot more communicative; I used to see her regularly responding to people in the RP Minecraftforums thread. Over time, however, and as the mod got bigger and Forge was developed, that changed. We started hearing less and less from her; and for me, the straw which really broke the camel's back was the fact that ShadowDragon and Direwolf20 were making YouTube videos which featured a 1.4.7 version of RP2, probably three months before there was a public release.
As I've said before, Elo has a real life, just like every other modder. Her job happens to be quite intense, something that she cannot take a huge amount of time away from right now so that's why she isn't replying so often. And why would she? If half of the things she reads are along the same lines of the garbage you're writing, I'd not want to bother reading at all. And again, Forgecraft is a test server, they were playing with a non public release of RP2 so that they could find and crush bugs in it. The kinds of bugs that you were complaining about in this very post! They very well could just test these mods behind closed doors and you'd have nothing to see to whet your apetite, instead they allow you a glimpse and that is the sole reason that I watch the likes of Dire and Mead.

As I said, white knighting on the part of end users is also a major part of the problem.
I despise this cop out argument. I'm not a white knight for providing a difference of opinion to your bile, I'm just defending what I like. Just as you are attacking what you dislike. If I'm a white knight for disagreeing with you, what does that make you? a black wankbag?
 

Freakscar

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Jul 29, 2019
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So, what's the problem now? At first, it's the nonpublic versions of buggy beta versions that are not available to everyone and their uncle. Next it's the tease of "I have a toy a week before y'alls and I lurv it!". Then it's the communication skills that lack in certain areas of modders' town. Could you please decide what exactly you want to rant about and stick to that instead of changing the rage focus every second posting? I'll skim through them anyways, because I'm bored.

1. "Nonpublic versions of mods"
They're nonpublic for a simple reason: They're not frkn done yet. That's why they are installed on private testing grounds like ForgeCraft and the likes. If I wanted to release a very popular product to a big audience, I'd sure as heck would make sure that, before I officially let everyone go ham over it, it's working as intended by me. As we're talking about single mod authors here: Newsflash, they do not have a full fledged QA team at their disposal working nine to five to squash bugs as they find them. All they do have, is friends and other modders they know and it's perfectly reasonable to give the probably broken-as-hell product to them first, in order to prevent a whole hurricane of shit that would ensue, would they not do it that way. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Derivating from 1.:
2. "Early access to new toys"
Duh. Not sure what to say about that. Of course early beta versions of new mods are to be expected when watching a stream/video from a server that officially is meant to be a testing ground for new implementations to a mod. If one wants to get angry about that and would rather have a nonworking, crash inducing, broken piece of crap that used to be a working mod, just to, in turn, go rage about ermergerd, dis mod is nawt wurking! - yeah, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

3. "Lack of communication skills"
This one is the final bit I can at least partially agree on. Yes, if would be fantastic, if all of the modders would tweet news thrice per day, release a new video twice per week and update their mod to a new version once every half a month. But. We're, again, talking about single persons. No corporation, no agency, no nothing. Single. Persons. Read that again. Single. Fucking. Persons. It's not that they've got nothing better to do, other than to code away like a trained monkey on steroids for hours on end, just to satisfy "the important internet community". Which, in itself, is an obviously impossible task. They work on their mod when they feel like it. I wrote this time and time again, but here it is again: they do not owe all of us anything at all. If all of the mods' authors around tekkit/technic/ftb/younameit modpack would suddenly agree to stop modding altogether and instead start up an orange plantation in New Zealand, it's their right do so and nothing you or I or "teh interwebs" could possibly say about this matters. At all. Of course, they probably won't do that anytime soon - but the option exists. And guess what? Last time I heard, you could not pay your bills through minecraft modding alone. Surprise. Now, if a modder comes home from his real job (y'know, to earn the butter for next mornings breakfast) and decides to spend his free time (google the meaning) to "work" a bit on his hobby (hell, google the meaning of this, too), it's their damn right to decide when, why, how much and whatever the frick else they want about it. And if they decide they do not want to slice that time up for creating loads of communications to "teh interwebs" - then that, again, is their frickin right, TOO. They're human. And don't get me started on "You tweeted this or that change to Mod-X.. I hate it, you suck and should go diaf!" story that gets rolling whenever an author decides to do communicate changes. GregTech is a prime example of polarization of the masses here. Whenever he lets go of a new detail, yet another shitstorm comes up. Every time. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Seriously. You can 'white knight' me all you want - but aint that convenient? All those, that contradict your opinion are "fanbois and whiteknight'ers" whereas everyone that agrees (if only in part), is "the tiny part of the internet that still uses that good ol' brain in their head". This is another flame-bait thread that will definitely turn into a steaming pile of goo within days, if not hours. And by all means, we sure as heck had enough of those around. Don't argue against it. It is bound to happen. "History" says so.

/rant
 

Petrus

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Jul 29, 2019
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GregTech is a prime example of polarization of the masses here. Whenever he lets go of a new detail, yet another shitstorm comes up. Every time. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Actually, GregTech isn't a mod that I'm going to be creating any drama about whatsoever. I made the decision roughly five minutes after first hearing about that mod, that I was extremely unlikely to ever go near it. Problem solved.
 

OmegaJasam

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Jul 29, 2019
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Their are /definatly/ some problems with the forge modders, this community and the MC modding scene in general.
OP took a swing and missed the lot of them I think.

There has been white knighting, entitlement issues (from both users and modders), unessassary drama, and all sorts of negativity that has made MC an unpleasent place to interact or write mods in.

Your Rp example could of been something good, like a discusion on the problem of mods in long time use having intrest lost, or RL interfear, and the community seemly slow to adapt change and remake mods. Instead it says more about peoples poor understanding of testing.
 

snooder

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You have to love how you can tell that someone is an idiot just by certain words.

Like 'elitist'. I've have never read an argument, on any subject, in which the person using the word wasn't massively wrong.
 

Chocorate

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Sure, a lot of modders are elitist pricks. I'm just surprised Greg isn't part of Forgecraft, seeing as all his changelogs have that vibe that he's the greatest person on Earth and a God.

For me, RP2's problem isn't quite elitism. It's that other people treat her like a divine, graceful goddess. People in the forums constantly say that RP2 is the best mod out there and that it's a central part of FTB. An it is. But they'd rather hold everyone else back, rather than have a 1.5.1 pack without RP2. I don't think they understand that if something can't be included, others can. RP2 could have been added in at a later date, if Eloraam updates it. And now we've missed the 1.5.1 update because of mod priority and worshiping. It really would have been nice to have 1.5.1 mods since they were updated, but I guess that's just another reason why MultiMC and the Technic Platform are just better. Those two have freedom, and FTB has a closer modder relationship. But how does that help us? Why should we use FTB? We don't even get to play with the test versions, let alone the completely updated versions.
 

DoctorOr

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You do realize forgecraft and forgecraft 2 are testing servers right? They use them not only to test their own mods, but the interactions between those mods. If I remember correctly, FC resets once every two months with the current "stable" builds and FC2 resets every 2 weeks with dev builds.

FC2 is reset every 60 days and FC1 whenever prudent.

Or at least streamers tell me. I'm not on the server.
 
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Virgoddess

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Oi.

OP, you're generalizing way too much. I've watched FC since it's inception and I've never gotten the vibe that they are elitists. Quite the opposite in fact. The point of the server is to test mod compatibility. For the masses. If they didn't care how their mods played with others FOR US, they wouldn't do it.

Are *some* mod makers dicks? Yep. Because they are human beings, and human beings have the capacity to be dicks.

I won't flame you, but it feels like you're making this personal, when it's really not.
 
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