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Forge: My list of grievances

Discussion in 'General FTB chat' started by Petrus, May 9, 2013.

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  1. Petrus

    Petrus New Member

    I know I'm going to take heat for making this thread; especially considering that I am unknown around here, and I actually signed up primarily for the purpose of making it. Before you accuse me of simply wanting to make trouble, however, please realise that the below post has been building up inside me for 4-6 months now. I've been seeing a lot of things that I was unhappy with, and I held my breath for a long time, because I knew people would think that I was just trying to create drama. I've tried to be as civil as possible, but there are things here that needed to be said.

    This sentence sums up the core issue that I am having with the group of mods authored by the people who were initially responsible for Forge, in general; said problem is not confined exclusively to Red Power 2.

    Specifically, there is a major problem of insularity and elitism among these people. I've been getting a very strong impression over the last several months, of a particular closed clique, which refers to itself (to quote Pahimar) as "the Forge community," which congregates on a couple of private servers and spends a lot of time focusing on how awesome it supposedly is. They view themselves as celebrities, putting it fairly simply.

    There is an equally strong sense at this point, that the modifications which these people develop, are only really intended for the developer clique themselves, and their chosen friends (such as ShadowDragon) to use; I can't remember the last time I saw a public release of IndustrialCraft 2 available from that mod's web site, that wasn't exclusively in FTB, for example. Buildcraft (or the public, non-in-crowd releases, at least) is also showing signs of serious decay, with texture rendering bugs, and the Filler simply destroying blocks it removes, rather than dropping them on the ground. 1.4.7's release of Red Power 2 also has at least one crash bug that I know of, which I've inadvertently triggered multiple times.

    I think the real problem is the fact that there has been far too much fawning and genuflection towards these people. They are not Gods, but unfortunately most players tend to regard them as such, and as mentioned above, I've really been starting to get the impression that it has gone to their heads. I don't think we should be deliberately rude or insulting to them, but I don't think it's good for them if we worship them excessively, either.

    The trend towards elitism and insularity has perhaps been most strikingly visible with Eloraam. I've been using her mods since before 1.7.3, and back then, she referred to it as Integrated Redstone. This was back before RP World and a lot of other things; the wiring and the integrated blocks were the only real thing there. Back then, however, she was friendly and a lot more communicative; I used to see her regularly responding to people in the RP Minecraftforums thread. Over time, however, and as the mod got bigger and Forge was developed, that changed. We started hearing less and less from her; and for me, the straw which really broke the camel's back was the fact that ShadowDragon and Direwolf20 were making YouTube videos which featured a 1.4.7 version of RP2, probably three months before there was a public release.
     
  2. KhrFreak

    KhrFreak New Member

    well the filler thing was completely intentional from what i understand
     
  3. Petrus

    Petrus New Member

    Why? To prevent people from using it for mining? It also could have been used for clearing trees if they hadn't done that; as well as probably a lot of other things.
     
  4. DoctorOr

    DoctorOr New Member

    The change was because it makes the quarry unnecessary, and the impetus was probably Etho's videos.
     
    RedBoss likes this.
  5. Katrinya

    Katrinya New Member

    Yeah, I completely see why friends playing on a private server is cause for so much butthurt. How DARE they not invite you?! *eye roll*

    Seriously, what do you hope to gain from this? Expecting Pahimar to throw open the gates of Forgecraft to the general public? Perhaps you hope to lead a righteous FTB rebellion? I can't believe you've thought on this "for months" & never realized how ridiculous you're being.
     
  6. Greyed

    Greyed New Member

    So... don't use them?

    Seriously, if you don't like what a mod does, or how a mod author operates, don't use the mod. Problem solved.

    Check my posting history. I've posted quite a few times on the mods I don't use. I actually haven't used a FTB pack since FTBBETA, instead opting to update by hand and using MultiMC as my front end. No skin off my back, no skin off their backs, either.
     
  7. Petrus

    Petrus New Member

    That by itself is not the central issue here. I never play SMP. It's one of the symptoms, but not the disease itself.

    This is the approach I took with IC2. The main reason why I am upset about Red Power 2, is because I did very much like both said mod and said author in the beginning, but things gradually changed for the worse. I'm also not the only person who has said that about RP2, by a long shot.
     
  8. Katrinya

    Katrinya New Member

    Oh I know. You're upset that the Forge community is too insular. They're so insular, they collectively upload hundreds of hours of youtube videos and streams, just so the interested public can see what's going on and comment on it! Wait, what does insular mean again?

    I'm sorry, but the longer I think about your "grievances", the less I understand them.
     
  9. Greyed

    Greyed New Member

  10. Petrus

    Petrus New Member

    As I said, white knighting on the part of end users is also a major part of the problem.[DOUBLEPOST=1368081093][/DOUBLEPOST]
    My thanks. I will look into this. RP2 for me was a Godsend in terms of its' replacing the (beyond horrible, IMHO) vanilla redstone system; but if someone else has now implemented something similar, I will be happy.
     
  11. Greyed

    Greyed New Member

    MineFactoy Reloaded has done just that, called RedNet. It doesn't have separate gates like RP2 does, but it does implement a block which replicates almost all of the RP2 gates, and plenty more. It also replaces redstone wiring with its own version which is essentially bundled, jacketed wiring rolled into one.

    Bonus, for me at least, is that MFR also has its own system for automatic farming, animal breeding and enchanting. About the only thing I don't use from it are the conveyors. But it has addressed the problems with redstone wiring, filled most of the hole left when I dropped forestry (auto-farming & biofuel production), and makes enchanting interesting.
     
  12. Katrinya

    Katrinya New Member

    That's amusing, I've never been accused of that one before. Now, I'll call you "entitled" and we'll be just one square away from FTB flamewar Bingo.

    My argument isn't that I think the mod authors rule by divine right. I wish they'd update faster, just like everybody else. My argument is that they actually do a lot to include the public, and that your entire post is based upon the premise that you, as a member of the community, should have been included in some way you haven't been. Want access to Forgecraft? Make a respected mod. There have been several new mod authors invited since the server started, which is yet another problem with the basis for your complaint.

    Furthermore, you say you aren't posting this just to "cause trouble", but I'm still not clear on what it is you meant to accomplish. Mind clearing that up?
     
  13. Chaos_Therum

    Chaos_Therum New Member

    I understand your grievances but I also understand the other side of things. I have been using buildcraft since it was some pipes and a mining drill and yes back then spacetoad was very involved in the community but once the mod becomes popular it's just impossible to actually interface with the massive community behind it so although it would be nice to talk to the devs it's just not feasibly possible my biggest issue is I would love public betas because I love bleeding edge software I don't care if it crashes every 10 seconds but if they don't want to release it till it's finished it's their prerogative just be happy they make these mods in the first place
     
  14. Ganon2386

    Ganon2386 New Member

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  15. Petrus

    Petrus New Member

    I guess mainly to be heard, and so that we can at least look at this and talk about it. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong, but I wanted to give it some exposure.

    Like I said, I've been holding this in for a while, but I've also seen some evidence that I'm not the only person who feels this way. I've seen other people starting drama about other things, and I didn't get involved; because yes, as we all know, drama is bad. Then, however, I saw the announcement thread about RP2 in which someone perfectly nailed how I myself was feeling, except in more general terms, and that was the catalyst.
     
  16. modpir8king

    modpir8king New Member

    I agree with the OP there seems to be real feeling of a childish "Na Na I have a newer, better toy than you" mentality amongst these elite people. This is evident in the constant comments by the FTB stream team streamers that these mods are not publicly available. But if someone is willing to spend the time, all the mods and version's bar one (xycraft) that are being used on the forgecraft server's, are available to the public if they simply look. I believe mod devs should be creating mods for everyone to use and enjoy and they should derive their satisfaction from this not this ego stroking look at me mentality that really seems to be developing amongst some of them. Some of these people seem to forget that if the general community had not downloaded their mod and raved about it on places like these forums, they would have never been raised to this elite status that they seem to think they are entitled too.
    Also in regards to the FTB stream team just in the name it points to a group of streamers the stream Feed the Beast Mod packs but none of them no longer do this they stream a closed community group of mods how is this fair to the general public.
    I am really starting to see that there needs to be a set videos done showing the general public how to find and create their own mod-packs of the mods that are on servers like forgecraft therefore removing a lot of this elitism.
     
  17. Petrus

    Petrus New Member

    Well, this sounds reasonable as well. If someone had actually said this somewhere where I might have seen it, that might have defused me as well. It's just the complete lack of communication that is most frustrating. If people say something like, "hey, this is still going to take ages, so sorry guys," then that at least is something; but sometimes there isn't even that.
     
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  18. Greyed

    Greyed New Member

    Google. Seriously, the method by which I compile my pack of mods is Google. "Hey, I want Minefactory Reloaded", Google Minefactory Reloaded, look for the Minecraftforum.net topic, click on it, click on the download page, go to the next mod on the list.
     
  19. Petrus

    Petrus New Member

    Exactly my point.

    I just wish I knew how to implement some of these things myself. Maybe I should learn Java.

    Another big part of the problem, come to think of it, is the fact that mods are so large now. In the beginning we had a scenario where lots of small, individual mods existed; things like Pfaeff's Allocator for instance. Buildcraft was probably the first big library type mod, and I think that has a lot to do with why things are getting so much harder to maintain. If I was ever going to start modding myself, I'd want to release each thing I produced entirely seperately; literally as a seperate download, and try and make it as small and as easy to maintain as possible. People always think "bigger is better," and it isn't necessarily.

    I think the Astocky modpacks are a reasonable compromise. They aren't so much packs as they are an automatic installer; they download each mod using the developer's own links. The only thing added by the "pack," itself is the configs which have been written to avoid conflicts.
     
  20. Enigmius1

    Enigmius1 New Member

    Did I just read another poorly written full page diatribe that boils down to "they don't communicate enough"? ffs...
     
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