Forge: My list of grievances

[Petrus]

For me, RP2's problem isn't quite elitism. It's that other people treat her like a divine, graceful goddess. People in the forums constantly say that RP2 is the best mod out there and that it's a central part of FTB.

If I was hypothetically going to worship Eloraam for anything, it would be intelligence and technical skill. To me, the content of the mod itself is indicative of genuine brilliance. It would not, however, necessarily be for generosity or social grace. She released the mod under a closed source license. Said mod uses a proprietary power system that isn't compatible with anything else other than via the blulectric engine, and as far as I know, no API exists.

This mess (as does Minecraft itself, in vanilla terms) also offers a fantastic example of the inherent superiority of open source as a paradigm, as opposed to keeping something closed/proprietary. It's a fairly simple fact that anything which is kept closed, is not going to be developed or maintained as rapidly or effectively as software which is open source. The lion's share of content for Minecraft itself comes from the mod community, not Mojang, and it always has; in reality, Minecraft alone could really be considered more a development platform than an actual game, when you consider how limited vanilla is by comparison.

So it is with RP2. The codebase has apparently grown larger than a single individual can handle. If it had been made open source, Eloraam would have had help, and the mod would have kept up; she even would have been able to pass it on when she hit burnout, as SpaceToad was able to, due to BC being open source. Again, people can point out that making something closed source is a developer's right; and I'm not arguing with that. What I'm saying is that while it might be the developer's right, it's also dumb.

It is true, however, that I also consider RP2 indispensable, and that is a very large part of the reason why I care enough to write threads like this. People should realise that anger or unhappiness about something is actually indicative of emotional investment. It doesn't make any sense to get upset about something that you don't care about; you're obviously not going to do that.

That does not, however, for one moment mean that I remotely condone anything vaguely resembling what someone else here said about Eloraam receiving death threats; and I want to make that totally and completely clear. I would never wish harm to her in personal terms at all; I am expressing frustration, yes, but becoming genuinely vindictive is not my intent.

 

[Malkuth]

If I was hypothetically going to worship Eloraam for anything, it would be intelligence and technical skill. To me, the content of the mod itself is indicative of genuine brilliance. It would not, however, necessarily be for generosity or social grace. She released the mod under a closed source license. Said mod uses a proprietary power system that isn't compatible with anything else other than via the blulectric engine, and as far as I know, no API exists.

This mess (as does Minecraft itself, in vanilla terms) also offers a fantastic example of the inherent superiority of open source as a paradigm, as opposed to keeping something closed/proprietary. It's a fairly simple fact that anything which is kept closed, is not going to be developed or maintained as rapidly or effectively as software which is open source. The lion's share of content for Minecraft itself comes from the mod community, not Mojang, and it always has; in reality, Minecraft alone could really be considered more a development platform than an actual game, when you consider how limited vanilla is by comparison.

So it is with RP2. The codebase has apparently grown larger than a single individual can handle. If it had been made open source, Eloraam would have had help, and the mod would have kept up; she even would have been able to pass it on when she hit burnout, as SpaceToad was able to, due to BC being open source. Again, people can point out that making something closed source is a developer's right; and I'm not arguing with that. What I'm saying is that while it might be the developer's right, it's also dumb.

It is true, however, that I also consider RP2 indispensable, and that is a very large part of the reason why I care enough to write threads like this. People should realise that anger or unhappiness about something is actually indicative of emotional investment. It doesn't make any sense to get upset about something that you don't care about; you're obviously not going to do that.

That does not, however, for one moment mean that I remotely condone anything vaguely resembling what someone else here said about Eloraam receiving death threats; and I want to make that totally and completely clear. I would never wish harm to her in personal terms at all; I am expressing frustration, yes, but becoming genuinely vindictive is not my intent.

This one post of yours makes this whole mess you started make sense now.. Now I understand what your real issue is... And its nothing new.

 

[King Lemming]

If I was hypothetically going to worship Eloraam for anything, it would be intelligence and technical skill. To me, the content of the mod itself is indicative of genuine brilliance. It would not, however, necessarily be for generosity or social grace. She released the mod under a closed source license. Said mod uses a proprietary power system that isn't compatible with anything else other than via the blulectric engine, and as far as I know, no API exists.

So it is with RP2. The codebase has apparently grown larger than a single individual can handle. If it had been made open source, Eloraam would have had help, and the mod would have kept up; she even would have been able to pass it on when she hit burnout, as SpaceToad was able to, due to BC being open source. Again, people can point out that making something closed source is a developer's right; and I'm not arguing with that. What I'm saying is that while it might be the developer's right, it's also dumb.

The API I'll grant you, it really should have one.

Your open-source zealotry? Full stop. You're just wrong here. Closed source is not dumb, there is no inherent disadvantage so long as the mod is maintained. In fact, it has been an exceptional advantage with Thermal Expansion - I'm extremely particular about my coding style and making sure things fit together. There's a reason it all works as well as it does. It's also allowed me to do some incredible refactoring and optimization behind the scenes when I feel like it. You know, because it's a personal project.

 

[voidreality]

If a group of people want to get together to enjoy their work together, more power to them. Especially when said enjoyment helps make a better mod for me. I don't want to be a tester. I want to play the mods. You may want to do test the mods, but you can't. Unfair? Not at all.

Elitism is exactly what it is. They create the mods. This makes them elite compared to those that do not. It isn't perceived elitism because it's a fact.

"Oh, but they stream their new toys, showing them off." Um... can't you just stop watching their streams/youtube/etc? I mean if it's annoying to you that much that you can't play with the new toys, why not just stop watching them play? Out of sight, out of mind. It's just a suggestion.

As far as mod not being developed or ready in a certain timeframe. You do realize these mods are free right? How someone can complain about free content is beyond me. In fact the entirety of your post escapes me. I was struggling to find one valid point.

I could go on, but I've procrastinated my responsibilities enough for today and will stop wasting my time further.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I know I'm going to take heat for making this thread; especially considering that I am unknown around here, and I actually signed up primarily for the purpose of making it. Before you accuse me of simply wanting to make trouble, however, please realise that the below post has been building up inside me for 4-6 months now. I've been seeing a lot of things that I was unhappy with, and I held my breath for a long time, because I knew people would think that I was just trying to create drama. I've tried to be as civil as possible, but there are things here that needed to be said.

Well, a person should be held accountable for their actions. If you can't 'take the heat' for your own actions, then you need to not make them.

Furthermore... making an account just to flame mod devs? Umm... yea. Not so smart.

This sentence sums up the core issue that I am having with the group of mods authored by the people who were initially responsible for Forge, in general; said problem is not confined exclusively to Red Power 2.

Specifically, there is a major problem of insularity and elitism among these people. I've been getting a very strong impression over the last several months, of a particular closed clique, which refers to itself (to quote Pahimar) as "the Forge community," which congregates on a couple of private servers and spends a lot of time focusing on how awesome it supposedly is. They view themselves as celebrities, putting it fairly simply.

There is an equally strong sense at this point, that the modifications which these people develop, are only really intended for the developer clique themselves, and their chosen friends (such as ShadowDragon) to use; I can't remember the last time I saw a public release of IndustrialCraft 2 available from that mod's web site, that wasn't exclusively in FTB, for example. Buildcraft (or the public, non-in-crowd releases, at least) is also showing signs of serious decay, with texture rendering bugs, and the Filler simply destroying blocks it removes, rather than dropping them on the ground. 1.4.7's release of Red Power 2 also has at least one crash bug that I know of, which I've inadvertently triggered multiple times.

If that were the case, they wouldn't have the popularity that they currently possess any more than any other private server pack has. Ergo, since the mods they develop ARE that popular, your argument is invalid. Getting butthurt over much-needed nerfs (such as the Filter) isn't going to change anything. Honestly, I'm surprised you didn't attack EE3 for removing Condensers. It seems about your speed.

I think the real problem is the fact that there has been far too much fawning and genuflection towards these people. They are not Gods, but unfortunately most players tend to regard them as such, and as mentioned above, I've really been starting to get the impression that it has gone to their heads. I don't think we should be deliberately rude or insulting to them, but I don't think it's good for them if we worship them excessively, either.

Pure drama and not a single point to be made other than 'WHAAAAaaaaaa, these people are popular!'.

The trend towards elitism and insularity has perhaps been most strikingly visible with Eloraam. I've been using her mods since before 1.7.3, and back then, she referred to it as Integrated Redstone. This was back before RP World and a lot of other things; the wiring and the integrated blocks were the only real thing there. Back then, however, she was friendly and a lot more communicative; I used to see her regularly responding to people in the RP Minecraftforums thread. Over time, however, and as the mod got bigger and Forge was developed, that changed. We started hearing less and less from her; and for me, the straw which really broke the camel's back was the fact that ShadowDragon and Direwolf20 were making YouTube videos which featured a 1.4.7 version of RP2, probably three months before there was a public release.

Oh, I'm sorry. I'll remember that if I ever release a popular mod, that I'm not allowed to have a job that suddenly quadruples my workload OR have a life outside of working on code.

Your post accomplishes nothing. It is random hate spewing in all directions. There is nothing constructive about this post. If you had provided solutions to your perceived problems, if you had provided a method for ending this 'problem', then you might have at least been a crackpot with a plan, which is better than a Common Internet Troll (Trogladitus Trollus Internetus).

Please cease and desist with the making of the exclamatory without adding an imperative.

 

[Poppycocks]

The API I'll grant you, it really should have one.

Your open-source zealotry? Full stop. You're just wrong here. Closed source is not dumb, there is no inherent disadvantage so long as the mod is maintained. In fact, it has been an exceptional advantage with Thermal Expansion - I'm extremely particular about my coding style and making sure things fit together. There's a reason it all works as well as it does. It's also allowed me to do some incredible refactoring and optimization behind the scenes when I feel like it. You know, because it's a personal project.

Bus count .

 

[Petrus]

The API I'll grant you, it really should have one.

Your open-source zealotry? Full stop. You're just wrong here. Closed source is not dumb, there is no inherent disadvantage so long as the mod is maintained. In fact, it has been an exceptional advantage with Thermal Expansion - I'm extremely particular about my coding style and making sure things fit together. There's a reason it all works as well as it does. It's also allowed me to do some incredible refactoring and optimization behind the scenes when I feel like it. You know, because it's a personal project.

I actually will concede this point. I consider open source a good thing from the point of view of longevity; but beyond a certain degree, you can end up with an effect of too many cooks spoiling the broth. In terms of open source examples, I've consistently seen better code quality from the BSD operating systems than I have from Linux, and the BSDs have a somewhat more closed and controlled submission system. Their license lets you fork the OS whenever you want; but you're not going to get code accepted into one of their releases unless they say so.

Linux doesn't have that; it's anything goes, and so we ended up with abominations like PulseAudio as a result. Slightly going offtopic here, but it was an example that was relevant to my point.

 

[Virgoddess]

If I was hypothetically going to worship Eloraam for anything, it would be intelligence and technical skill. To me, the content of the mod itself is indicative of genuine brilliance. It would not, however, necessarily be for generosity or social grace. She released the mod under a closed source license. Said mod uses a proprietary power system that isn't compatible with anything else other than via the blulectric engine, and as far as I know, no API exists.

This mess (as does Minecraft itself, in vanilla terms) also offers a fantastic example of the inherent superiority of open source as a paradigm, as opposed to keeping something closed/proprietary. It's a fairly simple fact that anything which is kept closed, is not going to be developed or maintained as rapidly or effectively as software which is open source. The lion's share of content for Minecraft itself comes from the mod community, not Mojang, and it always has; in reality, Minecraft alone could really be considered more a development platform than an actual game, when you consider how limited vanilla is by comparison.

So it is with RP2. The codebase has apparently grown larger than a single individual can handle. If it had been made open source, Eloraam would have had help, and the mod would have kept up; she even would have been able to pass it on when she hit burnout, as SpaceToad was able to, due to BC being open source. Again, people can point out that making something closed source is a developer's right; and I'm not arguing with that. What I'm saying is that while it might be the developer's right, it's also dumb.

It is true, however, that I also consider RP2 indispensable, and that is a very large part of the reason why I care enough to write threads like this. People should realise that anger or unhappiness about something is actually indicative of emotional investment. It doesn't make any sense to get upset about something that you don't care about; you're obviously not going to do that.

That does not, however, for one moment mean that I remotely condone anything vaguely resembling what someone else here said about Eloraam receiving death threats; and I want to make that totally and completely clear. I would never wish harm to her in personal terms at all; I am expressing frustration, yes, but becoming genuinely vindictive is not my intent.

Ahh, and here's the "real" issue.

Anger is actually more a sign of immaturity than emotional investment. Because a mod doesn't update on your timeline, you then feel justified in your anger because it indicates an emotional attachment? You win for one of the most outrageous justifications I've read today. Frustration, I can see. Irritation, even (though that's pushing it). Anger? Go eat a Snickers or something.

I've never understood the vitriol towards Elo, but then I've never understood the pseudo-worship, either. She's just a person who makes a mod that many people find useful. If she never updated again, that would be well within her rights.

I'm starting to think the internet breeds entitlement. It's dangerous.

 

[Poppycocks]

I'm starting to think the internet breeds entitlement. It's dangerous.

I blame bad parenting and the sick educational system.

You call every child special(no child gets left behind!) and you end up with a bunch of twats, as simple as that.

 

[Virgoddess]

I blame bad parenting and the sick educational system.

You call every child special(no child gets left behind!) and you end up with a bunch of twats, as simple as that.

Exactly why I homeschool my kids.

 

[Poppycocks]

Exactly why I homeschool my kids.

Yeah, no wonder, I've seen so many cases of "You overestimated your audience, so I'm giving you a B" or "You jumped too many steps here so I'll just assume that you cheated" that I wanna do it myself.

OTOH, socialization. No way I'm going to cripple my children in that area.

 

[Virgoddess]

Yeah, no wonder, I've seen so many cases of "You overestimated your audience, so I'm giving you a B" or "You jumped too many steps here so I'll just assume that you cheated" that I wanna do it myself.

OTOH, socialization. No way I'm going to cripple my children in that area.

Oh they get plenty. We have a group of homeschooling friends we meet with twice a week, they are in ballet, and we do reading groups twice a week.

 

[Poppycocks]

Oh they get plenty. We have a group of homeschooling friends we meet with twice a week, they are in ballet, and we do reading groups twice a week.

Sounds good, but not gritty enough. Too much constant supervision is not a good thing .

Then again, what do I know, I ain't got my own little bundles of poop yet.

sure as hell am looking forward to it though

 

[Virgoddess]

Sounds good, but not gritty enough. Too much constant supervision is not a good thing .

Then again, what do I know, I ain't got my own little bundles of poop yet.

sure as hell am looking forward to it though

It is a tough balance. But ballet and one of the reading groups is sans me, so they do have time to figure out who they are without mama up their butt. They are still pretty young yet. Parenting is awesomely hard and rewarding.

Sorry for getting OT there, guys.

 

[Katrinya]

All right, so I was in a pretty bad mood when I posted before, and that was reflected in an excess of snark. Apologies for that.

To summarize, it seems like some people look at what's available on the test server and feel they have a right to have access to the same alpha builds as the Forgecraft players. Regardless of whether that's right or wrong, it's just not going to happen. It isn't practical for mod authors to release every test build to the public. Neither is Eloraam going to change her communication style because you think it's elitist. The only thing this kind of thread can achieve is an argument on the forums. That is part of why I found the OP so irritating. The assertion that none of this is just to stir up drama strikes me as disingenuous, unrealistic, or both.

If watching Forgecraft videos makes you feel left out, I'd suggest not watching them, but no doubt that's already occurred to you. After dozens of similar threads, I wonder if maybe the Forgecraft members should consider no longer uploading footage of their server to the public. Then they can continue to test their work, and no one will feel like they're being taunted. Problem solved.

Except that many of them seem to enjoy their streams, and I don't see why they should have to stop just because some people feel excluded. But it's a thought.

 

[GPuzzle]

Sir, you simply managed to get Lamblasted and have two posts from King_Lemming here on this thread.
If you re-read this thread and still don't realize what in the name of God have you done, I am personally coming to your house to force you to re-read this one more time.
Also, Poppycocks, we don't even NEED a goddamn system like the "No one left behind" thing to get a ton of twats here in Brazil. Yay for minimization of exact sciences!

 

[Morvelaira]

I had quite a long post laid out to add to this thread but as I read further, I realized most of my points aside from two were already covered by other people. Go Forge Community!

And that's point number 1. You guys are the Forge Community. The livestreamers are the Forge Community. The mod dev's are the Forge Community. All of us, wrapped up together, are the Forge Community. At least, that's the only way I've heard the term used.

Point number two is this: Yes, those of us on ForgeCraft who livestream or make YouTube videos often point out that the mods here are not publicly available... that's because people are asking us where to get this particular mod pack. It doesn't exist. Closed beta testing. That does beg the question, why even display the server and it's unavailable goodies in the first place? Because, quite simply, you asked for it. No, you demanded it. Everyone has to see "what's coming next"! I feel like a rock in a Catch 22.

 

[modpir8king]

But in regards to testing, if you test in a confined petri dish you will never find inter mod compatibility between mods. Especially when many of these mod devs help each other in this community their mods can are going to obviously work rather well together. Which don't get me wrong is not a bad many hands make light work and as a programmer myself I know bouncing a problem off of like minded people can really help. But on the other hand I use a group of 225 mods and the number of issues I find between inter mod comparability is staggering. As anyone should know when testing for bugs you need to test not only the median but also for the outer cases as well.
In regards to all the bickering regarding RP2, I don't understand why people would threaten a mod dev that's just plain stupidity. But really how long does it take a person to compose a simple 140 character tweet of they are shutting down their mod for the forcible future, and people should accept that. This simple form of communication should be taken into account by a mod dev before they release a mod to the public. In my opinion this is just simply a polite thing to do and if you are not willing to undertake this responsibility maybe they should rethink releasing their mod to the public and keep it for their own private use or simply share amongst a group of friends.
One last point if these closed community's are for 'testing' why do you have people that are only streamers on them, would it not better suited to finding people in the community that have testing or programming knowledge volunteer as testers. I know if I received a bug report of 'it just broke', I would simply throw up my hands and walk way. Meanwhile if the tester can say exactly what broke, how it broke, and why it broke, and breaking it down to a code chunk or even line, would this not be more beneficial.
The minecraft modding community as a whole, both users and devs are responsible for the direction the community takes, but if a clique creates problems for the rest of the community, the clique needs to take measures to resolve this before it gets out of control.

 

[southernfriedbb]

One last point if these closed community's are for 'testing' why do you have people that are only streamers on them, would it not better suited to finding people in the community that have testing or programming knowledge volunteer as testers. I know if I received a bug report of 'it just broke', I would simply throw up my hands and walk way. Meanwhile if the tester can say exactly what broke, how it broke, and why it broke, and breaking it down to a code chunk or even line, would this not be more beneficial. The minecraft modding community as a whole, both users and devs are responsible for the direction the community takes, but if a clique creates problems for the rest of the community, the clique needs to take measures to resolve this before it gets out of control.

You are making a couple of huge unfounded assumptions here:
1. The Streamers involved in forgecraft are technically incompetent.
2. The mod makers themselves are somehow not involved in this process.

Have you watched any of the forgecraft videos? More mod devs then you shake a stick at.

I had quite a long post laid out to add to this thread but as I read further, I realized most of my points aside from two were already covered by other people. Go Forge Community!

And that's point number 1. You guys are the Forge Community. The livestreamers are the Forge Community. The mod dev's are the Forge Community. All of us, wrapped up together, are the Forge Community. At least, that's the only way I've heard the term used.

Point number two is this: Yes, those of us on ForgeCraft who livestream or make YouTube videos often point out that the mods here are not publicly available... that's because people are asking us where to get this particular mod pack. It doesn't exist. Closed beta testing. That does beg the question, why even display the server and it's unavailable goodies in the first place? Because, quite simply, you asked for it. No, you demanded it. Everyone has to see "what's coming next"! I feel like a rock in a Catch 22.

You guys just keep doing what you're doing and it's going to fine by me.

 

[Virgoddess]

^ So you would rather have someone not release a good mod because they don't take the time to update people on the status? Are you for real?

People keep complaining about things, but I see no solutions offered. What exactly do you want?

And that's a rhetorical question, because everyone wants something different. No one thing will ever make every single person happy.

I'm thankful that we have people that make mods, and people that test those mods, and people that put them together for us. That's what *I* choose to focus on when I feel frustrated.

I also don't see forgecraft as a clique. They are very inclusive of new mods and seem to work hard to bring all of us the best experience they can. Modders communicating with each other will only benefit us in the long run.