Hey ... I can be very mean ... especially when people threaten my homicidal babies
FTB - Curse Update
- Thread starter slowpoke
- Start date
Hey ... I can be very mean ... especially when people threaten my homicidal babies
I completely agree, which is why I wanted to hear that clarification from the horse's mouth, even more so when it seemed to keep getting overlooked. I realize that Curse is a business, and that with games like WoW updating mods individually isn't as big of a deal, but it was important to know that premium didn't play a part in Minecraft modpacks.
Despite that stuff, I would definitely look forward to FTB finally getting its "next generation" launcher which can handle mods individually.
As I have also said on stream about the Linux thing. And this is my opinion as a player.
* now I will hide from Kaelten*
- I don't care if Linux is covered natively as a general rule. Linux users tend to be more capable of managing stuff themselves
- That said if the Curse client is the only 1 of 3 client/launchers that does not have Linux support natively that cuts into the end user group as they go to other client/launchers
- From a business perspective the best argument in my mind for Linux support is the the other launchers have it so we need it to remain competitive.
* now I will hide from Kaelten*
You're into the lands of technicalities there, I'd say that functionality and platform support are independent of each other.
Just wanted to interject here for a second. Since I decided randomly to actually come to this site.
The contract I have signed with Curse has NOTHING to do with Forge right now.
I am purely there to help get this CurseForge stuff going and make it the best that it can be.
As it sits we can't do to much because its in flux and i'm getting to know everything.
However, I can state some definitive things, because the argument over them is kinda stupid.
1) No there will NOT be a 'Curse' version of Forge. Curse in no way is buying the Forge project. They get NO say in it's development. In the future once CurseForge is done, the plan is to work something out where CurseForge is the OFFICIAL host. But not the exclusive host. It will ALWAYS remain open source, it will always remain free. The CurseForge system has some great potential, especially when it comes to ease of deployment for the end modder. So POTENTIALLY I may do things in ForgeGradle like add support for automatically deploying to CF, but Forge itself will never have anything Curse specific. I will continue to develop it in the direction that I feel is best for the community {and my sanity} as a whole.
2) The whole linux and other OS debates. Windows is the main concern as it makes up somewhere around 80% of the end user base with Mac following behind, and Linux rolling in at around 1%. From a purely numerical standpoint, Linux PLAYERS don't matter at all. Hypothetical 'If one linux user leaves a million windows users will follow' is nonsense and doesn't matter. However, it is well known fact that the majority of SERVERS are linux based because, well Linux is better for that. So, will there be a way to obtain Mods/ModPacks on Linux, of course. Will it be the full fledged pretty CurseClient? That is to be determined. So quit harping on that, Linux users will not be SOL, there will be SOMETHING even if I have to write it myself and it has no relation to Curse officially.
Basically: Will there be a {insert OS} Client? Officially: Maybe if it makes valid business sense, cost vs benefit. Unofficially: There will be something, be it put out by Curse or the community.
3) The API for CurseForge. Its silly to speculate on such things right now. Its a highly technical thing as well as a business thing. There will be SOMETHING available because there will HAVE to be for the CurseClient to work. Whether that's officially documented/exposed to outsiders is unknown at this time and will be figured out as it evolves. However on a personal level my goal has always been to provide some sort of open standard API that others can use and implement.
As for all the other small things like, custom install folders, entering usernames, etc.. That's all minor details that honestly, nobody knows right now but approach it with optimism and see how it unfolds. The client will be used because it's good, not because it's a monopoly.
I don't expect to check this forum often, so if @Jaded or @Eyamaz or someone would be so kind as to poke me if there is anything REALLY important I should read.
But its getting kinda silly.
The contract I have signed with Curse has NOTHING to do with Forge right now.
I am purely there to help get this CurseForge stuff going and make it the best that it can be.
As it sits we can't do to much because its in flux and i'm getting to know everything.
However, I can state some definitive things, because the argument over them is kinda stupid.
1) No there will NOT be a 'Curse' version of Forge. Curse in no way is buying the Forge project. They get NO say in it's development. In the future once CurseForge is done, the plan is to work something out where CurseForge is the OFFICIAL host. But not the exclusive host. It will ALWAYS remain open source, it will always remain free. The CurseForge system has some great potential, especially when it comes to ease of deployment for the end modder. So POTENTIALLY I may do things in ForgeGradle like add support for automatically deploying to CF, but Forge itself will never have anything Curse specific. I will continue to develop it in the direction that I feel is best for the community {and my sanity} as a whole.
2) The whole linux and other OS debates. Windows is the main concern as it makes up somewhere around 80% of the end user base with Mac following behind, and Linux rolling in at around 1%. From a purely numerical standpoint, Linux PLAYERS don't matter at all. Hypothetical 'If one linux user leaves a million windows users will follow' is nonsense and doesn't matter. However, it is well known fact that the majority of SERVERS are linux based because, well Linux is better for that. So, will there be a way to obtain Mods/ModPacks on Linux, of course. Will it be the full fledged pretty CurseClient? That is to be determined. So quit harping on that, Linux users will not be SOL, there will be SOMETHING even if I have to write it myself and it has no relation to Curse officially.
Basically: Will there be a {insert OS} Client? Officially: Maybe if it makes valid business sense, cost vs benefit. Unofficially: There will be something, be it put out by Curse or the community.
3) The API for CurseForge. Its silly to speculate on such things right now. Its a highly technical thing as well as a business thing. There will be SOMETHING available because there will HAVE to be for the CurseClient to work. Whether that's officially documented/exposed to outsiders is unknown at this time and will be figured out as it evolves. However on a personal level my goal has always been to provide some sort of open standard API that others can use and implement.
As for all the other small things like, custom install folders, entering usernames, etc.. That's all minor details that honestly, nobody knows right now but approach it with optimism and see how it unfolds. The client will be used because it's good, not because it's a monopoly.
I don't expect to check this forum often, so if @Jaded or @Eyamaz or someone would be so kind as to poke me if there is anything REALLY important I should read.
But its getting kinda silly.
I think the thing a lot of people have brought up, is it's not that hard to code a multi OS program. Theirs TONS of resources out there to do that. Many of them have been brought up here in this thread and what I find kind of ridiculous myself, is why in the world are those resources not being utilized. Theirs been one explanation that was given that honestly.. doesn't make a bit of sense. Multiple times, it's been said over and over again, it would not affect its performance if done correctly. Going native means spending more time on different versions for each OS. Why not cut your time by a 3rd, and start development on a multi platform client that does everything you need it to do. It just boggles the mind a little bit, and to call whats been going on in this thread ridiculous.. is well.. ridiculous.
A lot of people here are just worried, or scared of what could happen in the near future with the Curse deal and the curse client being shoved down our throats for downloading the modpacks. Honestly, I've always hated the Curse client and probably always will. Its never sat right with me, but I'm always willing to give things multiple chances and if its for FTB. I'm willing to give it a chance, but only if done correctly and in a way to honor the community that was created around FTB. Not providing them the one thing that there basically screaming about in this thread is just a little more than boggling. If you have this many people already upset about the confusion around a Linux release, imagine what happens when everything that's been said in this thread about how to provide a Linux release is just promptly ignored. The Community here is very tight knit, and ignoring a small portion of them who crys out for Linux support is like shooting the entire community in the foot.
I'm not threatening, I'm not accusing, I'm more just worried about what the future is going to bring if Curse refuses to listen to the FTB community. Also, I don't think anyone ever said anything about a Linux user leaving and a million windows users leaving. I think I mentioned if there was no Linux server support for downloading the mod pack through at least a wget, you'd end up with many server hosts refusing to support a mod pack that was extremely difficult to get a hold of. If that happens, most of the FTB servers that are rented will slowly disappear. Causing an adverse effect on the client base of the FTB packs. Also, a lot of the people who make some of these mods, code them on linux (if this isn't true, feel tree to smack me. I'm more making an assumption). If there not able to test the mod packs, then they won't be able to create them.
So the point was, even though its a small user base who downloads through linux, they are mostly some of the more important clients who keeps things running smoothly. So I'm sorry if you find this thread slightly ridiculous, but everything that's been said here in this thread is a valid and straight point that should be considered.
I'll share API details when I have them.
We currently have a server API for bukkit plugins. Servers will be addressed in our plans as we work out the details.
And how does that help for an FTB sever then?
Its no as if FTB is very compatible with Bukkit.
I've done some tests with Bukkit mods/plugins that where said to be compatible but never got anything bukkit to work.
Not to pull the old trope, but you have no idea how difficult or not it is to develop a cross platform client. Because every project is different. Yes there are tools out there that can be used to help ease it and make certain types of projects 'easy'. However, pulling out another trope, if its so easy, then you should go do it. Do something productive instead of reiterating the same ill informed regurgitate statement over and over. The fact that you honestly believe that time would be divided between each OS equally shows how you don't understand project development. Obviously each aspect has to be handled in it's own manor. The main logical setup would be to have the functional core cross platform and the presentation platform specific. Which from what i've seen is how things are happening.
The concerns are valid, but what I am calling ridiculous is the repetition without waver nor actual expansion of the topic. We get it, you are concerned about Linux and Mac. It's been addressed that you will not be FORCED into using the Client to get mods.
Think about your third paragraph, do you honestly think that it would be a bright business move {leave alone the moral or logic because you obviously don't believe in that} to outright abandon Linux servers? Seriously? As for the portion of people who make mods using linux, I will smack you, it's about 20% of the Forge modder base that uses linux for development {substantially higher for building, but neither of these things have anything to do with the client}. Mod pack creators i'd estimate based on my stats to be around 10%.
As for your last paragraph, I just want to state that everyone thinks that they belong to the most important group. The ones responsible for everything and therefor the ones who should be given special attention. This is not the case. Again, some of the points brought up are valid yes. The first time they are brought up. But the repetition of 'omg just do it cuz its so easy' and 'if i no haz linux im taking my followers and leaving, youll be sorry' is not.
So to repeat my previous post:
Will you be able to [create|build|upload|download|share|copy|use|play] [mods|mod packs|textures|texture packs|maps] on [linux|mac|phones|toasters|your hamster|the sun]?
YES, unequivocally, YES.
Will this be done officially by Curse through the full feature complete CurseClient on [Linux|Mac|TheMoon|TIMMEAH]?
Maybe. No Guarantees.
Can Bryan ever promise you that these things will come through as an official Curse Employee representing Curse and it's products?
No, because he does not have that power and would be an idiotic business move that if things were to go awry or potentially not come out the way he says could land both him and the company is hot water.
Can I, Lex, as a 3rd party Not representing Curse promise you that your issues will be addressed in one manor or another by at least the community?
Yes, and I am.
Is this clear enough for you? I'm not sure how "Yes" can get any clearer.
It comes down to if you trust Slow and myself.
If you don't then there is nothing we can do to convince you.
If you do, then take our word for what we say.
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Have you ever tried writing an application for multiple OSes? Lex didn't go into the details and I won't waste my time with the fine details either as there are plenty of resources that tell you exactly how difficult it truly is.
As a programmer you will not spend the majority of your time coding, you will spend it debugging. While those tools may assist in certain aspects, they do not eliminate the majority of the problems you will encounter. Anything beyond a basic "Hello World" application will require you to understand all those platforms and sometimes even the differences between different editions.
Keep in mind that while Windows and Mac OS X only have a few commonly used editions, Linux has literally hundreds of distros and the user base is pretty fragmented across them. Some users may be running bleeding edge, some may be using an equivalent to Ubuntu's LTS system, and some may be on a completely outdated system.
At the end of the day, the only people who truly believe it is easy to code for multiple platforms are honestly those who have no real experience in the field.
My implied point, and my mistake for not being more clear, is that there is/will be a common platform for the projects on our side. Even though one is at dev.bukkit.org and the other is at ftb.curseforge.com or minecraft.cureforge.com they're running on the same code and database.
For those who are frustrated I'm not addressing points to your satisfaction I'm sorry. When I don't answer a point directly one of three things is going on.
a) I honestly don't have any thing that I can say at this point, but I've read it and am working on understanding things better so that I can get to the point of being able to speak on it.
b) I've already said as much as I can say and/or saying anything further on the matter would just be repetitive or inflammatory.
c) I was an idiot and just completely missed it.
Oh and Lex? Can you teach me to [create|build|upload|download|share|copy|use|play] [mods|mod packs|textures|texture packs|maps] on [linux|mac|phones|toasters|your hamster|the sun]? Please?
Personally I want to upload mod packs on the sun. I mean, it's huge, so it must be the biggest server in the galaxy, right? It'd serve mod packs so fast to users. That's how space works, right? Right? D:Oh and Lex? Can you teach me to [create|build|upload|download|share|copy|use|play] [mods|mod packs|textures|texture packs|maps] on [linux|mac|phones|toasters|your hamster|the sun]? Please?
I would expect it to transfer at the speed of light. Unfortunately it'll take approximately 8 minutes to transfer, and you only cover ~ 50% of the planet....
It doesn't help that Slow initially mentioned "feature parity" for the new Curse client, which most assumed included cross-platform parity, and Kaelten then saying that there were no plans for a Linux client (at least at launch?), and nobody seemed to be able to clear things up and kill speculation and whatnot.
There also wasn't much indication of what to do about mod distribution permissions. Even Jaded had the wrong impression, apparently:
Because, for example, if mod authors are able to say "my mod can only be used in modpacks if distributed through the Curse client", then if there is no official Linux version, there's going to be an issue there. And if I make my own unofficial version of the client, either through an official, documented API (hopefully) or through reverse-engineering the protocols used by the windows client (getting murkier) or even just an HTML scraper (much, much uglier), then yeah, there still might be some issues because it's not the actual official Curse client.
I mean yeah, obviously we Linux users are going to figure something out anyway, but we still prefer to do things the legit way when we can.
And maybe, perhaps maybe, all this sentiment from Linux users is because we've been snubbed for a long time, and only recently did things like Minecraft and Desura and Steam and the Humble Bundle (even gog.com, just yesterday!) started to actually pay attention to the Linux community and now there's a lot of love for us. And when you see Curse not promise Linux support where the current FTB client already has it, it looks to a lot of us like backtracking on progress that had already been made.
A point I haven't seen brought up:
Both the FTB and Mojang launchers already do exactly that. On my computer, they both use 0-5% CPU, 50-150 MB memory, and an unknown amount of disk activity the entire time Minecraft runs, even if I close their windows. (Probably recording log output)
If the Curse client is coded as a native application for each OS, it might be able to use platform-specific system features to stop entirely and greatly reduce memory usage until the Minecraft process quits, making it completely irrelevant whether it continues to run in the background or not. (I don't know how much of that sort of feature exists, but I'm pretty sure that at least windows has a way to suspend the current thread until another process finishes. I have also seen quite a few processes whose memory usage shrinks drastically while minimized, even if they continue to run, so that is also plausible, especially if the client can halt entirely for the duration)
Both the FTB and Mojang launchers already do exactly that. On my computer, they both use 0-5% CPU, 50-150 MB memory, and an unknown amount of disk activity the entire time Minecraft runs, even if I close their windows. (Probably recording log output)
If the Curse client is coded as a native application for each OS, it might be able to use platform-specific system features to stop entirely and greatly reduce memory usage until the Minecraft process quits, making it completely irrelevant whether it continues to run in the background or not. (I don't know how much of that sort of feature exists, but I'm pretty sure that at least windows has a way to suspend the current thread until another process finishes. I have also seen quite a few processes whose memory usage shrinks drastically while minimized, even if they continue to run, so that is also plausible, especially if the client can halt entirely for the duration)
Yes I understand that, and other os support is very important to Slow and myself. However, lets just put it to rest with other os's not officially falling under "feature parity". Because there is no way anyone can grantee that there WILL be a full feature complete linux or mac client at launch or the near future if it does not make proper business sense.
So:
Do we want to provide it? Yes
Can we 100% GRANTEE you that it'll happen with the exact same features and functionality as the windows client? No
Can I Lex, unassociated with Curse promise you that *something* will exists to suit other os's needs? Yes.
That's the best answer you're gunna get.
Jaded isn't so much wrong as it's just that the exact details of the permissions system has yet to be worked out. The goal, is to get everyone on the same platform and working together. Where restrictions such as you quoted do not need to exist. But rather "my mod can not be used with mod xyz because there is a major incompatibility issue"
Having worked with modders for two years, I can tell you all this permission stuff is MOSTLY about mitigation of issues and attribution/respect to the authors. Not so much about 'you have to use exactly what I say because I am a big meany'
Again i cant go into much details about this specific aspect because its still very fluid but just take my word for it that this is not what we want to see modders do and I will do everything in my power to make something that's great for all.
I know, and I understand that. However, we get the point, we are not stupid. We KNOW linux is wanted. However you jut have to accept that the is NO way Curse can promise anything related to that with 100% certainty. The only way they could do that is if they have a fully functional complete release ready to go on Linux.
I understand the sentiment, I don't particularly care or agree with it, but I understand it. However, it's just the world we live in. Its the same way many other major companies deal with things. Get something done that addresses 90% of the community and after that is settled see what can be done to address the rest.
So, what else can I say? There is no way you're gunna get a official 100% grantee from Curse to support everything in your wildest dreams.
What i'm asking for is for you to accept that and stop harping the linux side of things and let the other topics be brought up and not overshadowed.
Just because you don't mention it in every post doesn't mean it isn't still know to everyone.
Can we please get other points not revolving around linux out now?
I really don't have much to add here, except that My Daughters and I all play on Linux boxes, while my wife plays on Win7. One of the main reasons I started playing Minecraft was that it was written in java. I loved the FTB launcher because it was also written in java: I could run the same program on all my machines and keep the whole family playing together without hassle.
So I really don't understand. To me the arguments for no cross-platform FTB-Curse Launcher are spurious at best when our amateur (however extremely talented and creative) developers already have a working, stable, cross-platform client written in the language that *Minecraft itself* is written in. Why can't a for-profit business do the same?
It is my belief that the Curse representatives are not being honest here. Given that there has never been a Linux client, the Mac client was terminated, and support through wine has been steadily getting worse. I'd say Curse has no intention of ever making a Mac/Linux client, and Linux users are once again being told to "Join the Flock" of sheepish windows users or to well... go fornicate elsewhere.
Editing because I see Lex above asking for talk on other issues not revolving around linux. Seeing how big this single issue is to so many, asking for it to be sidelined is like the President asking us to sideline talk on employment/education/war/economy/etc and if we could please get other points on what color to paint the Oval office: Eggshell, bone, or Ivory.
So I really don't understand. To me the arguments for no cross-platform FTB-Curse Launcher are spurious at best when our amateur (however extremely talented and creative) developers already have a working, stable, cross-platform client written in the language that *Minecraft itself* is written in. Why can't a for-profit business do the same?
It is my belief that the Curse representatives are not being honest here. Given that there has never been a Linux client, the Mac client was terminated, and support through wine has been steadily getting worse. I'd say Curse has no intention of ever making a Mac/Linux client, and Linux users are once again being told to "Join the Flock" of sheepish windows users or to well... go fornicate elsewhere.
Editing because I see Lex above asking for talk on other issues not revolving around linux. Seeing how big this single issue is to so many, asking for it to be sidelined is like the President asking us to sideline talk on employment/education/war/economy/etc and if we could please get other points on what color to paint the Oval office: Eggshell, bone, or Ivory.
^This.
Also, most internet user communities often fail to take into account that it costs Money and/or "Free" time resources to plan, develop, debug, test, troubleshoot and release software.
Most companies have gnomes wearing expensive clothing taking all the hard numbers into consideration and determining if/when money will be invested on projects. Things happen only if they approve.
Despite all my other concerns, I haven't said anything about the Linux issue because I honestly don't think it's a big deal, provided the API ends up being as originally intended (i.e. to benefit the community rather than any specific modpack group). If so, you can guarantee that there will be a Java-based launcher written by someone, or integration with MultiMC, or whatever the case, within a short time of the API's launch. I guess the concern is how much gap exists between dropping the current FTB launcher and the introduction of the API. But it's not like the current launcher will just stop functioning; packs will still work, they just wouldn't update (unless FTB staff continue to provide updates for that launcher into the short-term after the transition until everything is ironed out for the other platforms). I would like to think that it won't be a long-term issue, just possibly a short-term inconvenience, which is understandably frustrating to some though.
Personally, I just hope for there to be something in the client to show the mods in a pack easily, allowing the user to click through to a description of the mod (or maybe the Curseforge page), and/or possibly allow linking to an external wiki so that people can easily go learn how to play each mod. Even Minecraft veterans still need these wikis, especially for newer mods. Modpacks might should offer a link in the launcher somehow to a central wiki as well, since we know the FTB team puts a lot of effort into that, and a central wiki can be even more helpful in how mods interact. A way to report bugs, for the pack or even the individual mods, or just a link to a support thread for a specific pack or mod, would also be a nice feature. All of this functionality doesn't even have to be in the launcher, maybe just some portal page for packs or something to get to this stuff, but a page still easily accessible from the launcher. The less clicks the better, though.
I realize that a lot of launchers currently don't offer these kinds of community integration features, but a lot of launchers don't aim to become a centralized platform, either. I think it's a good opportunity to make a launcher that blows anything else out of the water, especially since Curse already has the existing backend for the mods part of it.
Personally, I just hope for there to be something in the client to show the mods in a pack easily, allowing the user to click through to a description of the mod (or maybe the Curseforge page), and/or possibly allow linking to an external wiki so that people can easily go learn how to play each mod. Even Minecraft veterans still need these wikis, especially for newer mods. Modpacks might should offer a link in the launcher somehow to a central wiki as well, since we know the FTB team puts a lot of effort into that, and a central wiki can be even more helpful in how mods interact. A way to report bugs, for the pack or even the individual mods, or just a link to a support thread for a specific pack or mod, would also be a nice feature. All of this functionality doesn't even have to be in the launcher, maybe just some portal page for packs or something to get to this stuff, but a page still easily accessible from the launcher. The less clicks the better, though.
I realize that a lot of launchers currently don't offer these kinds of community integration features, but a lot of launchers don't aim to become a centralized platform, either. I think it's a good opportunity to make a launcher that blows anything else out of the water, especially since Curse already has the existing backend for the mods part of it.