A Shitstorm

[trajing]

Not going to quote two posts for one answer so to the people who just quoted me; RF community? What?

There is clearly a desire for this kind of content so why wouldn't the people who want it use it? How would it be any different from gregtech? The people who want RF to be less simple can use the dynamos/conduits/whathaveyou from the proposed mod, and the people who don't can stick to TE/EnderIO etc.

You clearly haven't noticed.
You know Rotarycraft? Tons of shit. Gregtech? Same there. And I'm not even going to get into how horrible the whole community is. Go to almost any total conversion, with the possible exception of TFC, and you will find people throwing shit at the dev for "Breaking things" or "Making things too hard" or "This is too laggy, you should optimize it x mod." @Reika has no shortage of stories of people like that, and Rotarycraft isn't even a total conversion. The MC community altogether has a complete lack of maturity.

 

[Strikingwolf]

Not going to quote two posts for one answer so to the people who just quoted me; RF community? What?

There is clearly a desire for this kind of content so why wouldn't the people who want it use it? How would it be any different from gregtech? The people who want RF to be less simple can use the dynamos/conduits/whathaveyou from the proposed mod, and the people who don't can stick to TE/EnderIO etc.

...this almost never works in a compatible enviroment...For example, MFR completely outclassed Forestry farms. Many people still like the Forestry farms, but they were so underpowered in comparison even they left them

You clearly haven't noticed.
You know Rotarycraft? Tons of shit. Gregtech? Same there. And I'm not even going to get into how horrible the whole community is. Go to almost any total conversion, with the possible exception of TFC, and you will find people throwing shit at the dev for "Breaking things" or "Making things too hard" or "This is too laggy, you should optimize it x mod." @Reika has no shortage of stories of people like that, and Rotarycraft isn't even a total conversion. The MC community altogether has a complete lack of maturity.

Y u ninja me? Anyway I love when people say RF/TE run better that RC
Haha no. That is only FPS side. RF/TE is harder on the server. I have seen the numbers myself

 

[Zenthon_127]

You clearly haven't noticed.
You know Rotarycraft? Tons of shit. Gregtech? Same there. And I'm not even going to get into how horrible the whole community is. Go to almost any total conversion, with the possible exception of TFC, and you will find people throwing shit at the dev for "Breaking things" or "Making things too hard" or "This is too laggy, you should optimize it x mod." @Reika has no shortage of stories of people like that, and Rotarycraft isn't even a total conversion. The MC community altogether has a complete lack of maturity.

So what you're saying is that you don't think Covert has what it takes to handle the flame he'll initially get. I do. Idiots are a thing, and it's not like Covert is some noob dev. He has plenty of experience dealing with morons.

...this almost never works in a compatible enviroment...For example, MFR completely outclassed Forestry farms. Many people still like the Forestry farms, but they were so underpowered in comparison even they left them

What this proved is that those players had no self-control to just not use MFR farms.

 

[Deftscythe]

So, we should not develop content people want because some people might complain about it? Nah, not buying it.

 

[trajing]

So what you're saying is that you don't think Covert has what it takes to handle the flame he'll initially get. I do. Idiots are a thing, and it's not like Covert is some noob dev. He has plenty of experience dealing with morons.

> Implying that Covert is the only dev who wants to make a complex RF mod

 

[Strikingwolf]

So, we should not develop content people want because most people might complain about it? Nah, not buying it.

The thing is that many devs are scared of doing that, like the RWTema generator thing...though he did keep them. Even then though he took them out for a little bit, which scares me

 

[trajing]

So, we should not develop content people want because some people might complain about it? Nah, not buying it.

No, the devs that would (Strikingwolf, myself, etc.) are afraid of the overwhelmingly negative response from the community that we will undoubtedly get.[DOUBLEPOST=1409521253][/DOUBLEPOST]

The thing is that many devs are scared of doing that, like the RWTema generator thing...though he did keep them. Even then though he took them out for a little bit, which scares me

Exactly. There is no right way out. Don't give in, the community yells at you forever. Give in, and only make it stronger later.

 

[Strikingwolf]

Exactly. There is no right way out. Don't give in, the community yells at you forever. Give in, and only make it stronger later.

The only person who did it successfully is @Reika and I commend him for it

 

[Deftscythe]

I don't understand this mentality. Nowadays you don't have to have an MCF thread to get your mod noticed and distributed anymore. Make the mod, host it wherever, and post a feedback thread here(like Reika's suggestion thread). The moderation here is good enough that you're only going to get constructive criticism. Yes, some people out there will hate your mod but if you don't give them a forum, they may as well not exist.

 

[Reika]

I do want to re-iterate what I posted in another thread:

That is more up to the mod than the power system. RF tends to be regarded as simple because most RF mods are literally plug-and-play with little to no design and problem-solving elements, and are so flexible and tolerant of failure that there is literally nothing you can do to make it do worse than perform badly.

That said, essentially every major RF-driven mod follows the design aesthetic of "simpler is better", to where we have have a dozen mods which are literally so easy to use and so difficult to mess up that it almost feels insulting. Like holding-your-hand patronization.

Worse yet, in my opinion, is the result of this trend. The simplicity of these mods has made many players complacent, and has likely drawn in players who previously would not have played modded minecraft because they struggle with concepts like power requirements or basic mathematics. This then results in a veritable army of players who bristle when they try a mod not designed like that and something immediately explodes, or even just fails to activate. Mod developers, myself included, get very tired of logging in and seeing 50 messages, over half of which are people complaining about something that any reasonable person should foresee. Too often I deal with people raging at me because "I had no idea that I couldn't use lava to boil water"/"What do you MEAN I can't just use a DC engine to run a bedrock breaker! It should just go slowly!"/"OMG you're telling me that my nuclear reactor can MELT?!" or many, many more. Exacerbating the problem is that the aforementioned players who previously did not have the requisite intellectual skills are among the most immature and aggressive players in the entire community.

This spills over to the rest of the community as well. People tell me that I can be rude and blunt when replying to some bug reports and/or suggestions. What they fail to realize is that I had just spent the last half hour clicking through ten or more pages of the kind of crap I post on my "what NOT to do" section before getting to them. So when a mod dev gives you a one-word answer to a question or refuses to include a suggestion, it is very possible that you just had the bad luck of being read after a five-page dissertation on why the developer is an elitist jackass, why their mod should never have been made, and that they should give it to someone else.

I don't understand this mentality. Nowadays you don't have to have an MCF thread to get your mod noticed and distributed anymore. Make the mod, host it wherever, and post a feedback thread here(like Reika's suggestion thread). The moderation here is good enough that you're only going to get constructive criticism. Yes, some people out there will hate your mod but if you don't give them a forum, they may as well not exist.

I get many emails, YouTube comments, forum PMs, and posts on two threads from people infuriated by my design decisions. They are completely unavoidable unless you choose to entirely withdraw from the community, and that is a terrible decision to make. On top of that, even dedicated tech support channels often are polluted with this. Even my GitHub issue tracker has had people post things like "remove the machine failure" or "make engines not need fuel".

 

[SpwnX]

@Reika: That reminds me of people complaining about GregTech complexity. I'm glad that it is hosted on the IC2 forums, where i can keep it safe from most of those stupidities.
And if i fail, a GregHammer swings nice and happily to bash someone. Constructive criticism only, thanks.

----------------------------

From my view point Forestry, Railcraft and eventually Buildcraft will end up switching to RF.
BC would be the mod that would have control on how RF will be transmitted (since it is the one with the kinetic pipes), thus very likely applying the MJ mechanics of power loss, perdition and such.
Forestry and Railcraft would also keep their perdition on machines as usual.
The difference would be that MJ as energy api would be lost, but successfully replaced by RF, without ANY loss to the gameplay, only gains.

 

[Reika]

From my view point Forestry, Railcraft and eventually Buildcraft will end up switching to RF.
BC would be the mod that would have control on how RF will be transmitted (since it is the one with the kinetic pipes), thus very likely applying the MJ mechanics of power loss, perdition and such.
Forestry and Railcraft would also keep their perdition on machines as usual.
The difference would be that MJ as energy api would be lost, but successfully replaced by RF, without ANY loss to the gameplay, only gains.

This could in theory be done. I rather doubt it will.

 

[Queue]

So after reading this thread, I am very confused what exactly most of the posters in this thread are even going on about. You don't like the power-transfer system of TE4. Yay. So where exactly was it stated that.....

• Railcraft and Forestry are losing leaky power
• You are now forced to use power storage
• The old MJ playstyle is dead

Nowhere. None of that was ever stated in Covert's post. What has been stated is that Forestry and eventually Railcraft will use the RF API. That's it. We'll very likely still have leaky power, and if you can just choose not to use power storage absolutely nothing has changed whatsoever except you no longer have gates. And at this rate BC itself will probably transfer over to RF and then everything will be normal. In fact, if BC indeed transfers you could technically use every RF mod just like you would with the current MJ versions of Forestry and RC.

This entire thread is based around the idea that RF is forced to be lossless and safe. That idea is wrong.

Just wait. I have something planned, don't you worry
All will make sense soon.

 

[Queue]

@Reika: That reminds me of people complaining about GregTech complexity. I'm glad that it is hosted on the IC2 forums, where i can keep it safe from most of those stupidities.
And if i fail, a GregHammer swings nice and happily to bash someone. Constructive criticism only, thanks.

----------------------------

From my view point Forestry, Railcraft and eventually Buildcraft will end up switching to RF.
BC would be the mod that would have control on how RF will be transmitted (since it is the one with the kinetic pipes), thus very likely applying the MJ mechanics of power loss, perdition and such.
Forestry and Railcraft would also keep their perdition on machines as usual.
The difference would be that MJ as energy api would be lost, but successfully replaced by RF, without ANY loss to the gameplay, only gains.

I +1 this

 

[eric167]

Actually, it is in a way. We would have seen a complex RF mod by now, but the RF community will rip it to shreds with "RF is supposed to be simple." Before you say that they could just ignore them, the MC community seems to be comprised of two-year-olds who will fling shit at devs until they give in to their suggestions. FC and Reika are examples of this.

I wish people like that all the bad luck in the world.
@Reika eats them, after explaining in detail, why they are wrong/idiots. I wont comment as to what condiments he uses, or as to what condition they are in when he gets to the eating part, however. they certainly don't post anything again.

 

[GreatOrator]

Ok, so here's my opinion:

In the early days of me starting to play modded minecraft there were three main types of power...EU, MJ, and BlueTricity. For this discussion I will leave out Blue.

To start, the arguments for what you would like to see in RF is basically what EU already did (or does now with recent changes). Why do we want a copy? EU has its pros and cons just as RF does now but when I started, I went with MJ more than EU simply BECAUSE it was simple to use, much like RF is now, and the benefits EU had with certain machines made me use it some times. EU had storage, MJ did not...until TE. Times have changed, from my perspective RF is the new MJ, it is the easy power to use, little thought needed other than figuring out if you are generating more power than needed, I like it this way. There are times that EU is good as well with certain mods.

Rather than trying to turn RF into the new EU, let's accept it for what it has become, a replacement for MJ and go with that, you can still use the BC pipes with it if you want, heck, you can use the Extra Utilities energy transfer pipes to convert EU into MJ or RF as well if you want and vice-versa. The systems work perfectly as they are designed and mod makers have even built in additional functionality to make it cross-over between power types.

Basically, make the power system as complicated or as simple as you want to have it, not because you are forced to, but in true sandbox fashion, but because you want to.

Variety is the spice, and power systems that everyone is losing interest in will fall to the side while others rise up to fill the gap as modding has done since the beginning and will for the foreseeable future no reason to fight over the inevitable.

 

[Cptqrk]

I like RF...
I don't like GT,
We must be enemies!

Okay.. on topic here... LOL

Look, even in the quoted post in the OP there was an out:

However, as we do not want to add a hard dependency on any external code, an internal API that allows Forestry Engines to provide power directly to Forestry Machines should be developed. This API should not be made public, but should be the default for engine-machine interfacing, falling back on RF only if the internal API fails.

So much rage from so many people going "But RF is dumb! It's too easy!" sound like the same rage of folks saying "RoC is dumb! It's too hard!"

I respect the mod developers who stick to their guns, and develop wonderful mods. I think @Reika is a shining example of a mod developer who knows what they want to do, and do it.. damn them all!
But I also understand the desire for easier methods. Set it and forget it machines. It all comes down to play style.
RF is not your play style, and that's fine.
So, please take the advice that I'm given when I mention that I don't like the complexity of GT.
Don't use it then.

Please, refer to the italics before responding "but they are going to FORCE me to use RF"

I don't like having to have 3 different kinds of generators and energy storage systems. I like the compactness of one.

 

[xbony2]

This could in theory be done. I rather doubt it will.

Buildcraft will probably never will. Spacetoad has stated many times that buildcraft will probably never included integration with other mods.

 

[Queue]

Ok, now onto my second round. May I please invite up to the stage @CovertJaguar and @King Lemming for a comment? (People may start to see what I am doing here, yes I am gathering info)

 

[xbony2]

To get 10 times the drama, just...

Ok, never-mind. He's no fun.

Edit: hey, post number 100 in the thread. Aren't I cool?