I get the uneasy feeling that rotarycraft may be the 'new' IC2.
Why don't people like IC2 anymore?
- Thread starter TheBaconator
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I wasn't replying to you?
Anyway a cross between magic farm, forgecraft3, with gregtech added is what I'm looking for. Doesn't sound impossible to me at all. Isn't this the ic2 thread? Are you following me or something?
So my previous comments were based on older builds of IC2, as I hadn't played it in 1.6 yet. I have now, and just... no. Forget about the aesthetics and the "too-technological" feel I mentioned before, it's now just tedium.
Here's my thought process while playing Tech World 2 (I've already got some basic TE machines going, decided to dive into IC2)...
Well, I've got my generator and macerator running, so I guess I should make an electric wrench... that's a battery, a circuit, and a wrench, right? Nope. Well, more precisely, you DO still need a battery, a circuit, and a wrench. You just ALSO need around 16 uninsulated copper cables, some iron item casings, tin item casings, a couple of coils, a little motor thingie... It's like 20 crafting steps just to make a frickin' electric wrench. I shudder to think how much time I will waste making actual machinery.
Now bear in mind, I had no problem with the materials. A couple of trips through caves had netted me about half a stack of each of the major metals (copper, tin, iron, silver, lead, gold), and I had doubled those with a TiCo Smeltery. I spawned in right next to a stand of rubber trees, so no problem there. It was simple to cover the material cost, though IMO that total cost was fairly extravagant for such a basic tool... Several iron, 11 copper, and a few tin to make a tool that fits in one hand? Whatever, fine... but that's one HEAVY tool if it really uses all those metals.
So you make the plates and the wires and the coils and the casings and the motor and some more casings and the circuit and the battery and you put it all together and then you think "I just spent 15 minutes assembling a wrench."
I'll stick to Buildcraft/Forestry/TE, thanks.
Here's my thought process while playing Tech World 2 (I've already got some basic TE machines going, decided to dive into IC2)...
Well, I've got my generator and macerator running, so I guess I should make an electric wrench... that's a battery, a circuit, and a wrench, right? Nope. Well, more precisely, you DO still need a battery, a circuit, and a wrench. You just ALSO need around 16 uninsulated copper cables, some iron item casings, tin item casings, a couple of coils, a little motor thingie... It's like 20 crafting steps just to make a frickin' electric wrench. I shudder to think how much time I will waste making actual machinery.
Now bear in mind, I had no problem with the materials. A couple of trips through caves had netted me about half a stack of each of the major metals (copper, tin, iron, silver, lead, gold), and I had doubled those with a TiCo Smeltery. I spawned in right next to a stand of rubber trees, so no problem there. It was simple to cover the material cost, though IMO that total cost was fairly extravagant for such a basic tool... Several iron, 11 copper, and a few tin to make a tool that fits in one hand? Whatever, fine... but that's one HEAVY tool if it really uses all those metals.
So you make the plates and the wires and the coils and the casings and the motor and some more casings and the circuit and the battery and you put it all together and then you think "I just spent 15 minutes assembling a wrench."
I'll stick to Buildcraft/Forestry/TE, thanks.
Not only that, but a wrench that requires electricity and is the only item that gets your machines back 100% of the time.
I love IC2... I couldn't imagine playing FTB without it. It works VERY well in my playstyle... I use TE to break everything down, AE to make my patterns and then overclocked IC2 machines to make all my stuff...
cheap and easy
cheap and easy
Yeesh, seven pages of this.
My short version:
Debate all that you wish to about the efficiency of the new IC2. I find that it adds a ton of pointless busywork to artificially extend the amount of time and effort spent on the mod.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and is partially coded by a duck....
My short version:
Debate all that you wish to about the efficiency of the new IC2. I find that it adds a ton of pointless busywork to artificially extend the amount of time and effort spent on the mod.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and is partially coded by a duck....
I agree, added tedium is no way to breathe life into a flagging mod. While I do agree IC2 needed to be "re-invented", this was not the way.
So add BC,TF, IC2 and GT to MF2... voila done.
I think that some of this is just the "CHANGE BAD" mentality. One of my friends bit... complained bitterly at me for hours after we updated to a pack without RP2 in it and we nearly had a knock-down-drag-out fight (on a different day, no less) when I tried arguing that with other mods you could actually achieve the same effective functionality as pneumatic tubes.
Caution, opinion provided by self-proclaimed expert mod breaker
For me, it's just stale, with a fresh coat of paint over the top of the staleness. The extra crafting steps is a bit annoying.
What IC needs, which almost every other tech mod includes is some form of item transport, to get things into the machines and out again. At the moment you have to rely on other mods to do this.
This allows it to stand on it's feet more as a minimum.
Also not keen on all the different "voltages" and all the different cable types, plus exploding machines. There's a learning curve, and there's just being mean...
The entire nuclear system needs changing. Not at all keen on the make a pattern mini-game to make EU. I think everyone would prefer the mini-game to be translated into a true mutli-block monster you have to build.
Then, let this monster produce a decent amount of EU to make it worth while.
After that, it's finding industrial technology that requires all that power. Like all tech mods, you don't need much power for the technology. The new UU matter system is a complete waste of time, resources and effort. It doesn't really lead anywhere if you do build it.
What IC needs, which almost every other tech mod includes is some form of item transport, to get things into the machines and out again. At the moment you have to rely on other mods to do this.
This allows it to stand on it's feet more as a minimum.
Also not keen on all the different "voltages" and all the different cable types, plus exploding machines. There's a learning curve, and there's just being mean...
The entire nuclear system needs changing. Not at all keen on the make a pattern mini-game to make EU. I think everyone would prefer the mini-game to be translated into a true mutli-block monster you have to build.
Then, let this monster produce a decent amount of EU to make it worth while.
After that, it's finding industrial technology that requires all that power. Like all tech mods, you don't need much power for the technology. The new UU matter system is a complete waste of time, resources and effort. It doesn't really lead anywhere if you do build it.
Decrease the power you got from the fuels in /cofh/thermal expansion fuels.cfg makes maintaining the fuel supply harder which amounts to the same thing.[DOUBLEPOST=1389180330][/DOUBLEPOST]
Caution, opinion provided by self-proclaimed expert mod breaker
I didn't give myself that title... I just play mods, I can't help it if I find lots of bugs along the way.
That or Mekanism, I REALLY like Mek, trying to get into Rotarycraft right now but it's a completely different way of thinking than the wired up mods but having sounds off is a must with Rotarycraft unless you're a masochist.
Also Reika's custom texture renderer means I have to go back to 1.4 texture palette's to update the textures is making me feel queasy.
I looked at the roatary/reactorcraft textures and went.. nope just nope.
I think what they are trying to do is push people to craft ahead. Set up some way to have a stack of uninsulated copper cables always on hand. Any time I run into something tedious... i try to automate it. You dont need lots of wrenches but you will need lots of batteries and circuits right? So make a couple stacks of all of them at once in a Workbench or something. Now how long does it take to craft? If it still takes 15 minutes then yes i would agree its too tedious.
Few players I know would just build any older version ic2 machine from scratch every time. One of the guys on my server just made some ic2 stuff for the first time ever and he said at first it looked daunting but then he realized that after a bit he 'had a bunch of the necessary stuff laying around anyway'.
Everything is relative, all other tools from other mods could be too cheap. A majority vote on something does not make it true, it just makes it the common opinion. And how much logical sense it makes also doesnt matter... we punch trees by hand when we start a new world so logic is right out the window. I can use 3 pieces of certus quartz to make a pickaxe, so they must be fairly large chunks, but how many pieces of quartz and iron go into one 64k AE disk? It costs a lot because it is very powerful, the IC2 guys just feel an electric wrench is something you should have to invest in, something you won't just make on day 1 of a world and never think of it again.
I havent played ic2 experimental yet but i like that you said a single tool requires a lot of resources. maybe the crafting time is too high, but really you only ever have to make one or two electric wrenches in a world.
It took me 6 hours to get to having a compresser, macerator, metal former and extractor and powering them.. with me already having all the materials I needed. Just making all the parts. And I had a full AE setup with autocrafting... I had to program way too many tiny components. I like progression tiers, I do not like making a machine to make another machine to make the machine I need to make the item I was trying to make. That type mini-game as a requirement bores me to tears. Bees are as time consuming as IC2, but they are an optional side game. For me I want the incredibly time consuming thing to be optional side games. I would be cool if the IC2 machines used the old method but the upgrades all had more steps and more time. Because the upgrades are not required for progression but the machines are. Thats where I personally draw my line. If its a required thing for normal progression make it fewer steps. Something that adds/upgrades the base mod , mini-game time.
My general feeling on progression, although I realize it's far easier said than done, is that it should be focused on what you can do. Any sort of grind, or "prerequisite"-based progression, is generally the lazy way out for developers, or a heavy-handed attempt to force players to use things that they don't want to. MMOs are super guilty of this, for the most part, and it's something I'd prefer to keep out of MC as much as possible, as pretty much the polar opposite of an MMO.
To put it another way, every time you jump a tier or "unlock" something, in my opinion, it should grant you the ability to do something both unique and interesting. A machine or tool should never just be required to craft another machine or tool. Extending tedium is not extending difficulty. TE is a fairly good example of how to do it right; each machine has relatively few parts, is easy to build, and is immediately useful in a unique way. Some of the progression is certainly tiered but you're never, for example, building a pulverizer or induction smelter purely to build another machine; you can use both to increase your ore yield as well as create "progression" components like invar or hardened glass.
IC2, lately, tends to be the inversion of this. 95% of what you make is to make something else which is used to make something else which is used to make something else which then becomes one component in something that actually DOES something. If you're dedicated to making things take a lot of time and/or materials, do it more along the lines of SC2, which uses an actual crafting timer that depends on the difficulty of what you're making (although it's a little component-heavy as well, but what's best or worst at it is not the subject at hand.)
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