Why don't people like IC2 anymore?

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zorn

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But... those are all good traits o.o

Also, Surely making the game hard for people counts as trolling? :D

Sirus could you comment on the ideas in the design of IC2 exp? What was the thinking behind the design with the cutters and such? It seems that mods can create tiers of progression through complexity, or through increased cost. IC2 seems to have gone the way of complexity, but from what I can see its not really any different from thaumcraft research. (So i dont get why people are so upset)

If ic2 exp has moved more towards gregtech, it seemed to me that his idea was to make things tedious to do by hand so you would have an incentive to make machines to automate things. Is this the idea? its kind of like how people get tired of loading machines by hand, so they are pushed to find ways to automate it. If a Macerator had an internal storage inventory the size of a Diamond Chest there wouldnt be a need to really try and automate it, and you lose a lot of the fun of the game.

Just wondering if you could share the design ideas behind IC2.
 
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casilleroatr

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Um it auto ejects... no no I can't think of any other mod that lets you auto eject outputs to a specified side....
What I mean is that you click on the face of another block to set the side it ejects to. The reason I liked it so much when I saw it was because you could insert using an ME interface and have the machine eject back into the same interface with no intervening pipes. This is what I saw on Direwolf's channel and, unless I didn't see what I think I saw, is a bit different to other mods which is why I said it was unique. I get that it isn't a major difference.
 
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TheSirusKing

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Sirus could you comment on the ideas in the design of IC2 exp? What was the thinking behind the design with the cutters and such? It seems that mods can create tiers of progression through complexity, or through increased cost. IC2 seems to have gone the way of complexity, but from what I can see its not really any different from thaumcraft research.

If ic2 exp has moved more towards gregtech, it seemed to me that his idea was to make things tedious to do by hand so you would have an incentive to make machines to automate things. Is this the idea? its kind of like how people get tired of loading machines by hand, so they are pushed to find ways to automate it. If a Macerator had an internal storage inventory the size of a Diamond Chest there wouldn't be a need to really try and automate it, and you lose a lot of the fun of the game.

Just wondering if you could share the design ideas behind IC2.

Well, the first thing was the removal of refined iron. It didn't make sense and its recipe collided with many mods, making them incompatible. When that got removed, something was needed to make the recipes unique and non-clashing again (The wire recipes also clashed with several mods). The addition of the hammer also allows for a cheaper material in crafting (For example, in RE batteries, Material cost was traded for a little bit of crafting time).

Although they cost for both the hammer and cutter 10 iron in total, it saves you both fuel from smelting refined iron AND saves you a ton of smelting time.

Besides, for those 5 iron per tool, they give you a huge amount of uses. Even then, its not like iron is expensive. (In vanilla at least, an hour of spelunking usually yields a few stacks of the ore, if my inventory can handle it)

Although it may seem more like gregtech, the only thing it really shares with it is the plates/hammers, and even then, material cost is much less.

Recently, Greg actually buffed several recipes, like glass fibre now only costs 4/9 of a diamond each instead of one whole diamond, and the bronze dust recipe in ic2 (Note, not gregtech, that is still nerfed) now yields 4 instead of 2 (Bronze armour and tools were nerfed though to go along with the cheaper cost).

i personally wouldn't call half-assed attempt of copying TE's(maybe it's come from Mek? i dunno) autoeject as something interesting, perhaps, peculiar is the right word?

The upgrade can make it so that items can be both ejected and inserted on the same side, something TE doesn't have (fairly useful for both GT automation and AE automation). We might add an auto import upgrade too, Perhaps also with some kind of blacklist. No idea, depends if player/thunder/greg like the idea.
 
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King Lemming

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and the bronze dust recipe in ic2 (Note, not gregtech, that is still nerfed) now yields 4 instead of 2 (Bronze armour and tools were nerfed though to go along with the cheaper cost).

To be fair, I forced your hand on that one. But at least I mentioned it to you - the obsidian dust thing was a bit much.
 

DREVL

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I'm considered evil because I am blunt, tactless opinionated, snarky and feel that diplomacy is a socially acceptable form of deception that is deplorable reprehensible and a waste of my time.
tell us how you really feel.
 

DREVL

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To be fair, I forced your hand on that one. But at least I mentioned it to you - the obsidian dust thing was a bit much.
question. Why does pulverizing obby produce more dust when the conversion back to hardened glass makes it the same?
 

Jadedcat

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question. Why does pulverizing obby produce more dust when the conversion back to hardened glass makes it the same?

TE2 had 1 obsidian = 1 pulverized dust. TiCon had 1 obsidian = 1 obsidian ingots. IC2-exp added obsidian plates and dust and had 1 obsidian = 4 obsidian dust, which messed with the balance of the mods that already had 1 obsidian block = 1 obsidian dust. So TE3 updated to 1 obsidian = 4 dust and TiCon has updated in the newest versions. Which means the amount of obsidian dust to make hardened glass went up but its still the same amount you used to get. ( my maths my be slightly off on what the original ratio was )

Basically IC2 went with a different ratio then other mods had been using for months leading to an exploit.
 
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RedBoss

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Still, not saying IC2 did it in a good way, but if they were trying to make ore doubling a mid game idea, id agree with that. How to implement that change though is tricky. Honeslty though I dont know why people will spend hours on thaumcraft research and be happy, but then hours crafting is considered tedious. In Ultimate I wanted a brain in a jar and i was forced toresearch for hours and hours just to get the one item i wanted from that mod. To me it seems many mods have lots of tedium built into them. Im NOT saying IC2 is good, i guess its just curious to me why TC research is considered ok, but IC2 'research' is not.
There's a saying amongst professional salespeople, "Price is only an issue in the absence of value." There's definitely a value placed upon the items yielded from any line of effort in a mod. For some, what they get from IC2 is not worth the price.
 

DREVL

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Sometimes I wonder why, for changes like that that affect so many other mods, more of the devs don't discuss it between themselves before implementing them.
Because they all want to do want they all want to do. As recent threads have shown, some people walk in with their arms crossed. Some do talk it over with others as there is mutual history between some. Others have a Haters Gonna Hate attitude.
 

snooder

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Well, the first thing was the removal of refined iron. It didn't make sense and its recipe collided with many mods, making them incompatible. When that got removed, something was needed to make the recipes unique and non-clashing again (The wire recipes also clashed with several mods). The addition of the hammer also allows for a cheaper material in crafting (For example, in RE batteries, Material cost was traded for a little bit of crafting time).

That's an interesting perspective, and if you'll allow I might demonstrate that you might be better off going with a slightly different design.

The problem with the hammer+cutter thing isn't that it's an additional *resource* cost. It's that it becomes an additional up-front *time* investment. Which is fine if you already plan to invest heavily in IC2, so shifting some costs from the overall life-span into making a few hammers and cutters at the start of the game becomes negligible. However, if the player is not already planning to invest that heavily into IC2, and he is just thinking about dabble slightly, (maybe making a single machine) increasing the time investment required (even at the benefit of lesser resource cost or less time spent down the road) becomes an irritating barrier at a time when he has not yet made a commitment to go further.

IC2 didn't really need any additional hurdles placed in the way of the initial "tier" of crafting. The point of having that initial tier is that it's easier to get into so new players (which includes older players just experiencing the new version of the mod) can get the basics, get their feet wet and try things out to see if they like it. Putting obstacles in the way of that initial exploratory step is, IMO, a poor choice that will inevitable put off a lot of people who won't even have the chance to delve deeper into the mod because it hasn't yet proven to be worth the initial time investment.

And the time cost is NOT negligible. It's applied to EVERY basic item in the mod so a minor, let's say 10 second increase in the time to make plates gets multiplied over and over again as you make the batteries, circuits, cables, machine blocks, etc. Until you've ended up expanding the time it takes to make a macerator by a minute or more simply because 6 of the steps in the craft had a 10 second time increase.

Thinking about it further, I think it would help to accomplish your goal of replacing refined iron if the metal former was the first item you make, and it didn't require plates or power. That would allow the same gameplay from old IC2 where you toss a stack of iron in the machine (used to be furnace) and let it process, which fixes some of that initial time investment by letting the player off to do other things while he waits.
 

DREVL

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I still haven't given up on IC2 people!!!

question... I use forestry's workbench to breeze through tedium crafting as much as possible before going to AE. I tried using a hammer and cutter in a forestry workbench/table and the hammer/cutter disappeared. Incompatibility I guess. Is the same thing going to happen if I was to AE autocraft with hammers or cutters?
 

TheSirusKing

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Its quicker to get 5 iron and make plates (Which, by the way, definitely does not take 10 seconds, more like 2. Try making the right amount BEFORE you start crafting the other stuff :p) then wait for refined iron to smelt (Well, early game, not late game), so it actually saves you time for a little bit more clicking :p

@Above It should work with AE :p May need some tweaking with the autorecipes and stuff though, and i don't know about the NEI integration Shift click thing.

I think the forestry table just can't use damaging items, since the same thing happens with GregTech tools.
 
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DREVL

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Plates being made in the plate bender with no overclockers do take 10 seconds, not 2.
 

Loufmier

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I tried using a hammer and cutter in a forestry workbench/table and the hammer/cutter disappeared. Incompatibility I guess. Is the same thing going to happen if I was to AE autocraft with hammers or cutters?

same thing happened to me with TE3 project table ish thingy. AE should deal fine with such stuff.
 
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