Werewolf Organisation: Electric Boogaloo Redux

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Pyure

Not Totally Useless
Aug 14, 2013
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Waterloo, Ontario
So it's not exactly simple, but I've got a game idea I've been sitting on for a while now. I believe it's highly unbalanced and probably skewed in the town's favor, depending on the number of players, so if anyone wants to look at it, here you go.
YOMAWOLF
I wouldn't like to run it all by myself, so maybe I could get the jointGM to help...?
There's so many roles and stuff going on here, having two GMs is probably a bad idea (you'll need all the players you can get)

My comments. A lot of stuff needs to be cleaned up here. I'd recommend removing dicerolls if possible. And rule-creation. And non-disclosure agreements.

For all roles that can distribute items to others
Can these players distribute items to themselves?

Mayor
"...Can autonomously introduce a new rule each night, which must be followed by all players."

This (arbitrary rule creation) has never worked. It will never work.

Postal Worker
"...Can secretly deliver items amongst players. Knows the identity of all townspeople, but not which ones are wolven. Is sworn to secrecy regarding this matter. Breaking the trust which has been placed in him (revealing roles) would constitute a violation of his Non-Disclosure Agreement, and make him subject to immediate death by sky laser. However, you can visit people in a private convo and offer your services. "

This (rules against revealing information) has been tried too, and it never works. Its too easy to use codewords or suggestions. "You shouldn't vote for Pyure" would not result in sky-lasering without the GM breaking his own rules.

Guard
"Can choose to protect a player each night. If so, has a 50% chance to die instead of the player."
Which player? Why is there a 50% chance? Do we trust the GM to just roll the dice fairly?

Tanner
"Makes tanned hide. A wolf's corpse can produce anywhere from 1-4 tanned hides. Wins if lynched. "
Who decides how much (1-4) was actually produced? Do we just trust the GM to roll the dice fairly?

Butcher
"Makes cured dogmeat. Yum. A wolf's corpse can produce anywhere from 5-8 cured dogmeat."
...See Tanner.

Baker
"Makes sweetrolls. Can cook a buttload (8) of sweetrolls each day, and distribute them to chosen players before nightfall."
Can he distribute to self?

Wizard
"Can scan a player each night to determine their role. Is shunned by the townsfolk due to his eldritch associations. "
What impact does being "shunned" have?

Botanist
"Grows plants and herbs that are useful for cooking and alchemy. "
What are plants and herbs good for? Don't say cooking and alchemy.

Scryer
"Can talk with the dead. Each night, can call up the spirit of one who has passed away and talk with them regarding knowledge. As the distance between the material and spiritual planes is vast, however, there is a chance information might become lost or garbled. 50% chance, to be precise. "
Who decides how garbled a message can be? The GM? Why???

Yoma
...(A whole bunch of percentages.....)
How does a Yoma enter the game? Do they get one role on D1, and a new role on D2 that overrides it? Do they know they're a Yoma on D1 but they're not allowed to act on it right away?

Claymore
"Arrives the night after the Yoma. Can scan a player over a night's duration to see whether they are Yoma. If so, the next night the Claymore can choose to kill them. "
Add the victory condition. (To kill the Yoma presumably)

Spirit
"If you die, you become a spirit. You will wander aimlessly until revived. You can pass through walls and stuff, so if you're lucky you might be able to find out certain roles.
However, this knowledge is lost when you are revived, so be sure to transmit it to a scryer quickly. Your win condition remains the same. You will be provided with an alternate account to use in the
dead conversation. "

This isn't going to work unless you want to maintain a whole bunch of alt accounts. Also, how are you going to make a player "forget" things they learn? Rules against distributing "forgotten" knowledge will not work.

Sweetroll:
"This item is very sweet. In fact it's so sweet that people's teeth might start to fall if they eat too many. Provides a 10% chance to evade an attack that night when eaten, per sweetroll eaten."
Is there a negative impact to eating these? (Does teeth falling out actually mean anything??). Why on earth are we doing yet another dice roll here?
 

Pyure

Not Totally Useless
Aug 14, 2013
8,334
7,191
383
Waterloo, Ontario
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MDqf1EhrYCT2j0BCdyHZJs7iXyJAnCcEohF-wLNkf4E/edit?usp=sharing
Here's a completed role sheet. If anyone has any concerns/ideas for Yumie and Heinkel, lemme know.
This game can basically run as-is. Here's some feedback on stuff that needs clarified and/or possibly addressed.

Attacks
This word is used a lot. Define what constitutes an attack. If you're wolf-killed, that's an attack. Is a lynch an attack? Roleblocking? Role-switching?

Every X turn roles
Clarify when they can BEGIN using their powers (Or, reword these so that powers have a "cooldown" period)

Zorin Blitz "May choose one player each night, and redirect their power target to a named player."

Clarify whether the Target-A (who used the power) is notified that their power was redirected.

Example if Pyure is Domez on D1
Pyure: I'd like to use my seer power on Shazam tonight please.​

Possible Responses on D2 depending on wording/interpretation of rule:
GM: Your target is "The Major" (not told that power was redirected)
GM: Vikestep is "The Major" (Told in detail that power was redirected)
GM: Your target is "The Major", but you should be aware that your power was redirected. (Told without detail that power was redirected)​

Alexander Anderson "May kill one player every 3 turns. Wins by seeing Alucard killed, and must also live to see Maxwell die if his Crusade ability is used."
Clarify that he needs to survive to see Alucard die (same way you mentioned Maxwell)

The Captain "Once per game, may make an extra kill in addition to the Millenium kill."
This role needs an incentive not to use their power right away. Not as badly as Enrico, but close.

Enrico Maxwell "Once per game, may declare a crusade. This causes two night attacks on random non-Iscariot players every turn that Maxwell is alive. Wins by eliminating all named Hellsing and Millenium characters
and surviving to that point."


This role needs some incentive to NOT use their power on D1. Otherwise they are always going to fire this off immediately and we're going to lose an awful lot of players over the first couple days.
 
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RJS

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Jul 29, 2019
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This game can basically run as-is. Here's some feedback on stuff that needs clarified and/or possibly addressed.

Attacks
This word is used a lot. Define what constitutes an attack. If you're wolf-killed, that's an attack. Is a lynch an attack? Roleblocking? Role-switching?
Basically, the millenium kill and any killing powers count as attacks. Anything else does not.
Every X turn roles
Clarify when they can BEGIN using their powers (Or, reword these so that powers have a "cooldown" period)

Zorin Blitz "May choose one player each night, and redirect their power target to a named player."

Clarify whether the Target-A (who used the power) is notified that their power was redirected.

Example if Pyure is Domez on D1
Pyure: I'd like to use my seer power on Shazam tonight please.​

Possible Responses on D2 depending on wording/interpretation of rule:
GM: Your target is "The Major" (not told that power was redirected)
GM: Vikestep is "The Major" (Told in detail that power was redirected)
GM: Your target is "The Major", but you should be aware that your power was redirected. (Told without detail that power was redirected)​
The target is not informed. Storywise, the only way to resist Zorin's powers was to have multiple minds/souls inside your head or to be snapped out of it by somebody else. I may yet add that in to make Alucard and later Seras immune to this power. Then again, that approach does play with the balance significantly.
Alexander Anderson "May kill one player every 3 turns. Wins by seeing Alucard killed, and must also live to see Maxwell die if his Crusade ability is used."
Clarify that he needs to survive to see Alucard die (same way you mentioned Maxwell)

The Captain "Once per game, may make an extra kill in addition to the Millenium kill."
This role needs an incentive not to use their power right away. Not as badly as Enrico, but close.
This power, given it's a one-off, is probably better saved for when Millenium has multiple targets they want to eliminate. It's a single, one night, one shot, which gives it the incentive of using when absolutely necessary.
Enrico Maxwell "Once per game, may declare a crusade. This causes two night attacks on random non-Iscariot players every turn that Maxwell is alive. Wins by eliminating all named Hellsing and Millenium characters
and surviving to that point."


This role needs some incentive to NOT use their power on D1. Otherwise they are always going to fire this off immediately and we're going to lose an awful lot of players over the first couple days.
I think the fact that activating the crusade means that literally every other player will try to kill you is a pretty big incentive to not use it. Anderson will want you dead for his win condition, and anyone else will want you dead for their own survival. Given that Maxwell could potentially win without even activating it, it's a big risk to take for a 'survive to the end' style win condition.

Concerns addressed in red, or alterations made as suggested
 

Pyure

Not Totally Useless
Aug 14, 2013
8,334
7,191
383
Waterloo, Ontario
Thanks @RJS

Concerns addressed in red, or alterations made as suggested
Regarding Enrico, "Everyone will want to kill you" isn't really a disincentive. Everyone is going to want to kill this player anyway. Therefore this player is definitely going to use the power on the first day. Every single time.

Regarding the Captain, I can accept that.

Regarding Zorin, I can accept that (although its a bit buff)

Other than Enrico, looks good. I can tell you right away that its going to be a quick game though.
 

Lethosos

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Change Enrico to basically change the lynch to both first AND second winners of the vote while the Crusade is active. Better incentive to delay.

Sent from my Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron using Tapatalk 2
 

RJS

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Jul 29, 2019
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Thanks @RJS


Regarding Enrico, "Everyone will want to kill you" isn't really a disincentive. Everyone is going to want to kill this player anyway. Therefore this player is definitely going to use the power on the first day. Every single time.

Regarding the Captain, I can accept that.

Regarding Zorin, I can accept that (although its a bit buff)

Other than Enrico, looks good. I can tell you right away that its going to be a quick game though.

Yeah, there is a lot of death and slaughter in Hellsing. Hard to capture in a game of WW considering a complete lack of healing that occurs in the canon, with the exception of obscene vampiric regen that I kinda captured with Alucard's multiple lives.

And while Enrico is a threat before using his power, he's irrelevant to their victory. It may well be that he decides to lie low and launch the crusade later, to prevent everyone doggypiling him as soon as they can. I may tone down the crusade to only be one per turn though. Thoughts?
 

Pyure

Not Totally Useless
Aug 14, 2013
8,334
7,191
383
Waterloo, Ontario
And while Enrico is a threat before using his power, he's irrelevant to their victory. It may well be that he decides to lie low and launch the crusade later, to prevent everyone doggypiling him as soon as they can. I may tone down the crusade to only be one per turn though. Thoughts?
MAybe I'm missing a piece here. How do they dogpile him? Does the crusade announce the name of the player?

Otherwise he's just an uber-wolf. Village etc are trying to dogpile threats anyway, the trick is trying to find them. There's really no threat to him unless he goes and tells people his role (which would be criminally stupid)
 

Eruantien

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Jul 29, 2019
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There's so many roles and stuff going on here, having two GMs is probably a bad idea (you'll need all the players you can get)

My comments. A lot of stuff needs to be cleaned up here. I'd recommend removing dicerolls if possible. And rule-creation. And non-disclosure agreements.
Understood. This would be my first time GM'ing as well, so I'm all for your advice.

For all roles that can distribute items to others
Can these players distribute items to themselves?
Yes, I thought I had made that clear enough, but apparently not. I'll be stressing that point, if items are retained in the revised version of the rules.

Mayor
"...Can autonomously introduce a new rule each night, which must be followed by all players."

This (arbitrary rule creation) has never worked. It will never work.
Alright, that'll be removed. Mayor will go back to the usual (double vote).

Postal Worker
"...Can secretly deliver items amongst players. Knows the identity of all townspeople, but not which ones are wolven. Is sworn to secrecy regarding this matter. Breaking the trust which has been placed in him (revealing roles) would constitute a violation of his Non-Disclosure Agreement, and make him subject to immediate death by sky laser. However, you can visit people in a private convo and offer your services. "

This (rules against revealing information) has been tried too, and it never works. Its too easy to use codewords or suggestions. "You shouldn't vote for Pyure" would not result in sky-lasering without the GM breaking his own rules.
I had not considered that. The Postal Worker will be removed, as there is not a reason to retain this role other than for this stupidly broken purpose.

Guard
"Can choose to protect a player each night. If so, has a 50% chance to die instead of the player."
Which player? Why is there a 50% chance? Do we trust the GM to just roll the dice fairly?
Any player. I wanted to introduce chance, which it turns out is a terrible idea for WW games, and will be subsequently removed. No.

Tanner
"Makes tanned hide. A wolf's corpse can produce anywhere from 1-4 tanned hides. Wins if lynched. "
Who decides how much (1-4) was actually produced? Do we just trust the GM to roll the dice fairly?
Will be altered to simply "wins if lynched".

Butcher
"Makes cured dogmeat. Yum. A wolf's corpse can produce anywhere from 5-8 cured dogmeat."
...See Tanner.
Removed.

Baker
"Makes sweetrolls. Can cook a buttload (8) of sweetrolls each day, and distribute them to chosen players before nightfall."
Can he distribute to self?
Yes, if not removed.

Wizard
"Can scan a player each night to determine their role. Is shunned by the townsfolk due to his eldritch associations. "
What impact does being "shunned" have?
Flavor text for the moment. At one point I had another dice roll here, but it was removed. The wizard will be deleted in favor of the scryer.

Botanist
"Grows plants and herbs that are useful for cooking and alchemy. "
What are plants and herbs good for? Don't say cooking and alchemy.
Will be deleted.

Scryer
"Can talk with the dead. Each night, can call up the spirit of one who has passed away and talk with them regarding knowledge. As the distance between the material and spiritual planes is vast, however, there is a chance information might become lost or garbled. 50% chance, to be precise. "
Who decides how garbled a message can be? The GM? Why???
The garbling will be removed. It's a bad mechanic.

Yoma
...(A whole bunch of percentages.....)
How does a Yoma enter the game? Do they get one role on D1, and a new role on D2 that overrides it? Do they know they're a Yoma on D1 but they're not allowed to act on it right away?
Good point. This will be shifted. They will be in town from D1. The percentages will be eliminated.

Claymore
"Arrives the night after the Yoma. Can scan a player over a night's duration to see whether they are Yoma. If so, the next night the Claymore can choose to kill them. "
Add the victory condition. (To kill the Yoma presumably)
That is indeed the victory condition. Will also be shifted to arrive D1.

Spirit
"If you die, you become a spirit. You will wander aimlessly until revived. You can pass through walls and stuff, so if you're lucky you might be able to find out certain roles.
However, this knowledge is lost when you are revived, so be sure to transmit it to a scryer quickly. Your win condition remains the same. You will be provided with an alternate account to use in the
dead conversation. "

This isn't going to work unless you want to maintain a whole bunch of alt accounts. Also, how are you going to make a player "forget" things they learn? Rules against distributing "forgotten" knowledge will not work.
Dead players will stay dead. I'm eliminating items, they won't work well. This will be changed to:
"If you die, you become a spirit. Your win condition remains the same, and you will be placed in a conversation with the other dead."


Sweetroll:
"This item is very sweet. In fact it's so sweet that people's teeth might start to fall if they eat too many. Provides a 10% chance to evade an attack that night when eaten, per sweetroll eaten."
Is there a negative impact to eating these? (Does teeth falling out actually mean anything??). Why on earth are we doing yet another dice roll here?
Eliminated. At one point I must've been thinking along the lines of determining who the wolves were by the number of teeth they had left, but that won't work either.

Most items will be deleted, and their subsequent impacts removed. What do you think about keeping the candlesticks, swords/shields, and vials of death? I'd adjust their numbers and roles to 1 being produce per night, by their respective roles. I'll update the rule sheet later if this looks more acceptable than before.
Issues are addressed in purple.
 
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Pyure

Not Totally Useless
Aug 14, 2013
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Waterloo, Ontario
Issues are addressed in purple.
You were so ridiculously accommodating and polite I feel like I total dink :(

I actually thought most of the roles that created "goods" were kind of neat in a Agricola kinda way. I think my biggest concern was that an entire "chain" of industry could be busted on N1 when the wrong person died. A possible way to mitigate that would be to make each player able to produce 2 different kinds of goods, so that there were multiple sources (but halving the amounts a single person might have made before)

Rather than trying to comment on any specific mechanic, I actually look forward to just seeing what your next revision looks like, and then making more commentaries :)
 

Eruantien

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You were so ridiculously accommodating and polite I feel like I total dink :(

I actually thought most of the roles that created "goods" were kind of neat in a Agricola kinda way. I think my biggest concern was that an entire "chain" of industry could be busted on N1 when the wrong person died. A possible way to mitigate that would be to make each player able to produce 2 different kinds of goods, so that there were multiple sources (but halving the amounts a single person might have made before)

Rather than trying to comment on any specific mechanic, I actually look forward to just seeing what your next revision looks like, and then making more commentaries :)
Aye, ya dink. :p

Maybe I'll come back to the idea of industry at a later time, as it'd be super complicated to balance. For now, I'll stick with the introduction of the Claymore elements.
Yomawolf v2, same link or (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/171V4cOmezwbldWXHrjWYZzPXZTEJVqeRsESi_MrI5oo/edit#gid=0).
 
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Someone Else 37

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RJS

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MAybe I'm missing a piece here. How do they dogpile him? Does the crusade announce the name of the player?

Otherwise he's just an uber-wolf. Village etc are trying to dogpile threats anyway, the trick is trying to find them. There's really no threat to him unless he goes and tells people his role (which would be criminally stupid)
Yeah, you have a point. Reworded his ability - feel free to scan through.

"Once per game, may declare a crusade. This causes two night attacks on random non-Iscariot players every turn that Maxwell is alive. His identity will be revealed after 2 days of the crusade. Wins by eliminating all named Hellsing and Millenium characters and surviving to that point. Gains an extra life when the crusade begins."
 

RJS

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I had questions about your game and Eru's, but most of them have been answered or were about roles that have since ben removed. Nonetheless:

Can Seras Victoria still roleblock, if s/he likes, after Pip Bernadotte dies?

Who/what determines Enrico Maxwell's targets?
  1. Nope, complete conversion of the ability to a killing power
  2. Maxwell's target's are done via random.org
 
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Pyure

Not Totally Useless
Aug 14, 2013
8,334
7,191
383
Waterloo, Ontario
Yeah, you have a point. Reworded his ability - feel free to scan through.

"Once per game, may declare a crusade. This causes two night attacks on random non-Iscariot players every turn that Maxwell is alive. His identity will be revealed after 2 days of the crusade. Wins by eliminating all named Hellsing and Millenium characters and surviving to that point. Gains an extra life when the crusade begins."
Now that's good. Trying to time that crusade will be interesting.

Slightly tangential: I hate roles that have to survive till the end since dying is so random. But that's werewolf sometimes :)
 

RJS

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Now that's good. Trying to time that crusade will be interesting.

Slightly tangential: I hate roles that have to survive till the end since dying is so random. But that's werewolf sometimes :)
Considering his role in the series is to go overboard in his megalomania and get himself in too deep, it's fitting :p