Forge: My list of grievances

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BananaSplit2

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Ember Quill said:
Most of the OP has already been covered and debated to death. But there's a couple things I want to say about this bit.

About videos showing off RP2 before it was released: did you notice all of the issues and bugs that RP2 (and plenty of other mods on Forgecraft) had? Seriously, there's a reason why they get to play with mods first. It's because they're beta testing. It's because the mods aren't finished or bug-free. It's because their server probably crashes FAR more often than servers using the released versions of mods. I recall one of DW20's videos from a few months ago where Forestry multifarms wouldn't accept anything from pipes. Another one where the entire server crashed because of a single typo in a single mod. And so on. I've noticed while watching both Direwolf's SMP season 4 and his Forgecraft 2 videos that he mentions crashes A LOT. Many such crashes even happen WHILE he's recording. Do you experience daily crashes for a multitude of reasons? No? Forgecraft is the reason why.
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And please tell me, why the hell is beta testing limited to such a small amount of persons ? What exactly is better in testing there and only there then letting everybody else test too ? More bugs would be reported, and it would be overall faster (Railcraft does it, Forestry does it, etc....). I know some modders don't want to do it because a lot of people use it as an actual release instead of a beta and do not report bugs, but in the end this doesn't change anything anyway ! You'll still have more people to test so screw the others.
Crashing servers really ISN'T the reason. You don't want crashing ? Then don't use the beta !

I'd really love to know what really are the motivation for very closed beta other than to favor their modders, youtubers and streamers friends, which is perfectly okay, they do what they want, I'm not crying about this.
 
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Katrinya

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BananaSplit2 said:
And please tell me, why the hell is beta testing limited to such a small amount of persons ? What exactly is better in testing there and only there then letting everybody else test too ? More bugs would be reported, and it would be overall faster (Railcraft does it, Forestry does it, etc....). I know some modders don't want to do it because a lot of people use it as an actual release instead of a beta and do not report bugs, but in the end this doesn't change anything anyway ! You'll still have more people to test so screw the others.
Crashing servers really ISN'T the reason. You don't want crashing ? Then don't use the beta !

There is no true logical reason to it than to just favor their modders, youtubers and streamers friends, which is okay, they do what they want.

But stop trying to find other reasons than the actual one.
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Because the general public is horrible at testing. People submit the same bug over and over without checking to see if it's already been reported, omit crashlogs, fail to explain how the bug can be reproduced etc. Many mod authors have said repeatedly that they moved away from public testing because they were spending more time sifting through erroneous reports than they were fixing bugs.

Furthermore, many people don't seem to understand the concept of "beta-testing" at all, and will spam the forums with furious demands for fixes, usually also laced with insults.

I have no trouble believing that a small team of competent, literate testers is more efficient than public beta testing. But if you're determined to feel aggrieved or to attribute their behavior to elitism, then by all means, knock yourself out.
 
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Bibble

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BananaSplit2 said:
And please tell me, why the hell is beta testing limited to such a small amount of persons ? What exactly is better in testing there and only there then letting everybody else test too ? More bugs would be reported, and it would be overall faster (Railcraft does it, Forestry does it, etc....). I know some modders don't want to do it because a lot of people use it as an actual release instead of a beta and do not report bugs, but in the end this doesn't change anything anyway ! You'll still have more people to test so screw the others.
Crashing servers really ISN'T the reason. You don't want crashing ? Then don't use the beta !

There is no true logical reason to it than to just favor their modders, youtubers and streamers friends, which is okay, they do what they want.

But stop trying to find other reasons than the actual one.
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Two things:
1. Forgecraft ISN'T beta testing. It's alpha/dev testing. The stuff that they hove on there isn't ready for release, and they're finding the obvious issues.
2. The way that someone does testing is not for you to decide. If someone would prefer to test privately before releasing to the general public, that it their decision, and there are a number of reasons for it (namely more reports != better).

As with OP, please stop raging because people aren't doing what you want them to. Their methods are their own to choose, and, while not beyond reproach, you can advise, and argue, but not force.
 
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Maul_Junior

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Katrinya said:
Because the general public is horrible at testing. People submit the same bug over and over without checking to see if it's already been reported, omit crashlogs, fail to explain how the bug can be reproduced etc. Many mod authors have said repeatedly that they moved away from public testing because they were spending more time sifting through erroneous reports than they were fixing bugs.

Furthermore, many people don't seem to understand the concept of "beta-testing" at all, and will spam the forums with furious demands for fixes, usually also laced with insults.

I have no trouble believing that a small team of competent, literate testers is more efficient than public beta testing. But if you're determined to feel aggrieved or to attribute their behavior to elitism, then by all means, knock yourself out.
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that may be PART of the reason, but IMO the REAL reason that most devs (whether mod, publisher, indie, etc) choose to have closed betas as opposed to open betas are because of people like me who take the betas and play it like it was the final version, and don't submit many bug reports, and may not have much time to specifically devote to hunting bugs. Which is why I only play open betas, and don't think I'd ever play a closed beta.

Does that make me a bad gamer?

maybe.

But I accept it.
 
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BananaSplit2

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Bibble said:
Two things:
1. Forgecraft ISN'T beta testing. It's alpha/dev testing. The stuff that they hove on there isn't ready for release, and they're finding the obvious issues
2. The way that someone does testing is not for you to decide. If someone would prefer to test privately before releasing to the general public, that it their decision, and there are a number of reasons for it (namely more reports != better).

As with OP, please stop raging because people aren't doing what you want them to. Their methods are their own to choose, and, while not beyond reproach, you can advise, and argue, but not force.
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1.It's the same thing in the end, it's searching for bugs. What is the difference between beta, alpha and dev other than the code is less advanced ? Just the name. I mean take a look at EE3. the released versions are pretty much always stable. There's no little stupid bugs left in when pahimar releases his pre versions, which could be associated to dev versions. I think the problem is the haste of some developers releasing unstable versions they barely checked before uploading on the server.

2.Of course they decide, but what does that change to what I said ? Covert Jaguar had a good way of beta testing, anyone downloading the beta on the irc channel and not reporting bugs would be banned. That won't stop people from downloading it as others can give the links anyway, but at least they won't be a concern anymore

Again, it's not just because "they have the right to decide" that everything is acceptable. I'll take an extreme example : Hitler did horrible things, should he has done something else ? Of course not, that's up to him to choose, not us. (EDIT : this paragraph is totally not about Nazism, it's just about having an example, I guess I took the wrong example)

Sounds stupid ? That's why this argument won't stand in a debate of ideas.

Maul_Junior said:
that may be PART of the reason, but IMO the REAL reason that most devs (whether mod, publisher, indie, etc) choose to have closed betas as opposed to open betas are because of people like me who take the betas and play it like it was the final version, and don't submit many bug reports, and may not have much time to specifically devote to hunting bugs. Which is why I only play open betas, and don't think I'd ever play a closed beta.
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Again, if you do that, why the mod author care anyway ? You bring them nothing, but you don't annoy them either unless the modder has some big ego and cannot bear people using the betas of his mods without reporting bugs. Meanwhile some true testers will actually help them and in the end they get more support.


Katrinya said:
Because the general public is horrible at testing. People submit the same bug over and over without checking to see if it's already been reported, omit crashlogs, fail to explain how the bug can be reproduced etc. Many mod authors have said repeatedly that they moved away from public testing because they were spending more time sifting through erroneous reports than they were fixing bugs.

Furthermore, many people don't seem to understand the concept of "beta-testing" at all, and will spam the forums with furious demands for fixes, usually also laced with insults.

I have no trouble believing that a small team of competent, literate testers is more efficient than public beta testing. But if you're determined to feel aggrieved or to attribute their behavior to elitism, then by all means, knock yourself out.
Click to expand...

That is true than general public is horrible at testing. But in that case, make it so that only the smart persons can access the place where you can report bugs. Again, Covert Jaguar had a good way to do it. Insults ? I'm sure they still get plenty outside of beta testing. Also of course a "small team of competent, literate testers is more efficient than public beta testing" but why not include open beta at the same time ? You could also let some mid important persons like the popular members of this forum do some filtering to let some good bug reports go through. Big scale betas are generally the way to go in the end.

Also I insist, I don't care that they get stuff before us, or about how "elitist" they are. This is totally irrelevant to the subject. I'm only trying to find holes in your reasoning, as you are doing the same with me. We'll both leave this debate smarter.
 
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Bibble

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BananaSplit2 said:
1.It's the same thing in the end, it's searching for bugs. What is the difference between beta, alpha and dev other than the code is less advanced ? Just the name. I mean take a look at EE3. the released versions are pretty much always stable. There's no little stupid bugs left in when pahimar releases his pre versions, which could be associated to dev versions. I think the problem is the haste of some developers releasing unstable versions they barely checked before uploading on the server.

2.Of course they decide, but what does that change to what I said ? Covert Jaguar had a good way of beta testing, anyone downloading the beta on the irc channel and not reporting bugs would be banned. That won't stop people from downloading it as others can give the links anyway, but at least they won't be a concern anymore

Again, it's not just because "they have the right to decide" that everything is acceptable. I'll take an extreme example : Hitler did horrible things, should he has done something else ? Of course not, that's up to him to choose, not us. Sounds stupid ? That's why this argument won't stand in a debate of ideas.
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With regard to versioning:
-Dev is usually the in-progress code. Depending on the developer, there'll be about a 20-80% chance of it running, let alone the features working. Bug testing this is dumb (this is also usually not what's on Forgecraft, except in certain circumstances, like Soaryn getting his worldgen fixed, while the rest was still borked).
-Alpha will usually run, and most things should be operational, but there are a number of glaring problems. Sending this out into the world is usually counter-productive, because everyone will notice the same things. The same things that a small group of people will notice.
-Beta is where most of the things that can be found, have been, and it's the lesser-used cases that need identifying. This is where the public, and sheer numbers are helpful. Before this stage, they really aren't.

As an aside, Pahimar's stuff is pre-release. That doesn't mean anything with regards to their testing status. The definitions also shift slightly from dev-to-dev, and project-to-project, but these are the levels, as I understand them.

My second point was mainly directed at those essentially expostulating an open-ness viewpoint, and all but demanding that everyone use that system. These people are wrong, and they annoy me. There are many situations when open-ness is not the best course of action, and many where it is. Persisting that it's the only "truely good" method is rubbish.
 
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BananaSplit2

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Katrinya said:
I'm sorry, I stopped listening after this
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Too bad for you

"While falling afoul of Godwin's law tends to cause the individual making the comparison to lose their argument or credibility, Godwin's law itself can be abused as a distraction, diversion or even as censorship, fallaciously miscasting an opponent's argument as hyperbole when the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate."

Katrinya said:
I see no evidence of that.
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Again, feel free to leave the debate if you feel this will bring nothing new to the table for one of us. No offence
 
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Nerixel

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I'm surprised after 8 pages this hasn't really gone off topic, other than the random Hitler reference, which really has nothing to do with anything, since it's a completely different circumstance, and what he was doing was actually illegal, as opposed to choosing their dev/alpha/beta testing method, which is their right to do.

I'd never even thought that Forgecraft could be in any way "elitist", or had people showing off their beta (and usually semi-broken, I might add) mods. Using Direwolf20 as an example, I believe he was actually involved in the original culmination of Feed The Beast (which I may be wrong about). Either way, he's good friends with Slowpoke, who actually is technically the "leader" of FTB, though it was a group effort and I don't want to misconstrue that in any way. The way I see it, he's on Forgecraft 1/2 to do tutorials for us, so that we know how to use the mods when they do come out (for which he does an excellent job), and to bring entertainment. Again, this is something he does by choice. It's not our right to force him to make more or less videos, or ones on different topics. That's essentially the same argument as the modders one, just with different circumstances.

It's true, modders, streamers, YouTubers and the like are all considered to be above us mortals in some way or another, but that's not because they said "Hey everyone, we're better than you", it's because members of the community decided, "You know what? These guys are pretty good, they spend hours of their time every day working towards entertaining us for free, usually every day. They deserve my praise".
 
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