What's the point of RotaryCraft?
- Thread starter Siigari
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You are not. It is packs that are used by more than one person (or where that one person is not the one who modified it) that I care about.
Also, I hear the GT fusion reactor was nerfed in 1.6, so that the actual output is 1/3 the value specified earlier.
The biggest motivator behind Reika's "NO TOUCH MY MOD EXCEPT AT CONFIGS" policy is the huge degree of inter-reliance between Rotary, Reactor, and Electric, as well as interwoven balance tweaks. Changing ANY component can have unforseen changes, and most people don't think these kinds of things through. Breaking your OWN world because you're curious or just didn't think? That's fine. Breaking a world for OTHER people? ESPECIALLY when they're going to come bitching to Reika about stuff that's not his fault. (Which, I admit. I do a bit to Greg. Pretty much every recipe that explicitly uses GT items but isn't GT is the original author not Greg. Wouldn't touch the IC2 forums with a ten foot pole though *shudder* I'm SO not part of that community anymore)
Someone like Jaded, who actually uses her brain and thinks through changes before she makes them, then tests them, and finally tries to actively take the tech support load off of mod authors? That's not so much what I think he's targeting. Then again, I'm not Reika
Speaking of "Things I Wish R/R/E Craft Did" I totally wish I knew scala so I could help Reika implement FMP support. I have been spoiled by muliparts.
Someone like Jaded, who actually uses her brain and thinks through changes before she makes them, then tests them, and finally tries to actively take the tech support load off of mod authors? That's not so much what I think he's targeting. Then again, I'm not Reika
Speaking of "Things I Wish R/R/E Craft Did" I totally wish I knew scala so I could help Reika implement FMP support. I have been spoiled by muliparts.
This argument applies to every mod ever, to varying degrees. Wouldn't you agree that the preferred route is "If you modify my work, I will likely be unable to support it."?
To provide another perspective: using the "inter-reliance" and "balance" arguments, Mojang could say "we refuse to let you modify our product because you may inadvertently break the worlds of other people." Fortunately, modders DO accidentally break worlds all the time; it simply isn't Mojang's problem if people choose to do so.
Couldn't agree more. But I get why Reika doesn't want to bother with it.
While similar it's not the same thing. Minetweaker is a silent change, at least to the average user. If you don't check the logs or configs you have no idea a receipe has been changed. Also, even if you check the configs, Minetweaker configs are not exactly easy to read if you aren't used to fiddeling with configs (especially IDs).
This I can absolutely agree with. I'm hoping that as MineTweaker and similar projects become more sophisticated, they'll address this shortcoming better.
Similar to your argument is documentation: changing recipes and such can invalidate corresponding wikis.
That said, I've never found these to be particularly strong arguments against flexible configuration of a mod: the vast majority of users will never look at or adjust a configuration; they take the mod as is. And if someone wants something badly enough they'll figure it out
With most mods, that's actually NOT a problem. A few seconds thinking about something can fix 99% of errors arising from using minetweaker on MOST mods. Very few have a carefully guided, progression-gated, intentionally balanced system in place. Reika's mods aren't like most other mods out there (it's one of the reasons I like them so much), remove nearly any part of his mod and suddenly the whole house of cards comes crumbling down. Pretty much the entire license agreement is set up in such a way as to head off as many false-positives as possible, and be able to deal with a lot of the rest of them with a minimum of effort, so as to get to the actual problems and new features. Azanor recently changed his stance on modpacks and put this in the license agreement.
Azanor said:
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In a more perfect world? Yes, that would be a preferable solution. Unfortunately, we live on Earth, with Humans. They have this distressing tendency to be lazy, thoughtless, horrifically whiny, and mind-bogglingly entitled.
Which means a sufficient number of people will NEVER read your original post from end-to-end like they're supposed to, will automatically come crying to the author when something breaks, will put up misleading tutorials because their server tinkered with things outside of the realms of config files, and just generally make themselves into a MASSIVE headache. You've read the MCF thread. How many "bugs" have been reported, re-reported, and reported again that were fixed many versions ago? Especially arising from the FTB packs that had v19 when... I think it was v23... was released on his site; or changed recipes for balance reasons that people can't get working like _____ did on YouTube? Reika even says "If you are using any version other than the latest, try the new version before posting your report!" and still the reports come in from versions that are months old!
Note that even with these rules in place, Reika can do very little besides feel good about ignoring or yelling at the idiots and "taking his ball and going home". There are no mechanisms in place to prevent someone from using Minetweaker to change recipes, and going the GT route of crashing the game is a great way to get yourself blacklisted. What these rules allow Reika to do, is be perfectly justified in removing or avoiding the headache in the first place, also protest to the pack host that someone is breaking the license and hopefully get the pack taken down, assuming he can identify it first.
Having been a moderator, and done tech support? I'm firmly on Reika's side. Preemptively being defensive makes your life a very large amount less hellish. Saying you won't provide support is one thing. Having your email, PM inbox, and thread fill up with all the end users because you can't point at The Rules and say "Not my fault. Yell at this guy, he broke my rules" is another thing entirely.
I'm actually rather surprised that Mojang HASN'T taken that stance. They do finally have a "Hey, it's modded. Not our problem. Go see if the modders can help you" policy in place though.
Also, this. I started playing Agrarian Skies and was shoehorned into doing Jadedcat's One Chosen Way to do whatever task is at hand. Which means in order to get much enjoyment out of the pack, I had to go and "break" her pack by iterating through the configs and re-enabling most of the features, disabling a lot of the "WTF?" changes (some of which have been fixed, like disabling SOME lava generators but not others, or the MFR upgrades nearly max tiers being HARDER to get than the actual max-tier Emerald. Some have not, like allowing MFR conveyors but not Extra Utilities conveyors), and just generally walking all over Jaded's carefully crafted creation because MineTweaker (as well as the config settings Jaded asks her friends to add) made things not work the way I expected them to, and no wiki would help because the changes are specific to Jadedcat's mod packs.
Not really an argument. If people want to break it, let them.
Another reason I don't develop mods.
That too.
Having been a professional developer for, damn, 15 years now, I disagree. Sometimes doing things the best way means doing it the hard way. If you're very good at what you do (I am), you can have your pie and eat it too.
Good thing you're able to modify the mods
I'm not. If there were no mods I wouldn't have bought the game and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this.
I was active in the modding community of a different game quite extensively (rather than true mods it was more addons/custom content in that case though). I wasn't there from the beginning, so this goes with an "as far as I've heard": The development studio originally wanted to stop custom content for the game, the publisher intervened and pulled them back. In effect the game sold well for years beyond it's usual expirey date (an assumption, but one I'm pretty sure of).
TL;DR: Mods make more money without much effort from the POV of the developers.
This is all beautifully worded and exactly accurate.
One minor addition:
Because of the way RC gates progression - learning and gradation rather than cost - most of the RC top-tier content becomes extremely overpowered if modified to follow a more "traditional" system. And I ALWAYS bear the brunt of it.
Can't argue with any of that. Although I've also read that only a tiny segment of Minecraft players ever mod their game.
;| RoC is functionally identical to "traditional" grading systems such as GregTech, I'm sorry to say. This is particularly evident with mechanisms such as the magnetostatic tiering, blast glass prerequisites, etc.
You should consider this a good thing; fundamentally, its the best way to tier a system, by engaging the player in learning the mechanics of a tier before progressing to the next. I'm a strong fan of your work in this area.
As far as I know modders have the right to dictate what can be done with their mods. And ultimately I'd rather have a restrictive mod than none at all, so I play by the rules.
But there's a certain degree of irony when a modder takes a "no modding" stance to his mod.
The traditional system is having everything craftable at all times, but with higher-tier materials being more expensive. For example, think of vanilla tools.
Not the thrust I was going for with my point, but oh well; I actually agree with you. Having mods is what keeps me playing this game. Mojang themselves rarely put out content that actively makes me go "I MUST HAVE THIS. WHY ARE THESE MODS NOT UPDATED YET?!" (Incidentally, Slime Blocks are one such addition. They are insanely interesting) It's mods that have held my interest in this game for... well... since Beta 1.8 honestly, and even then there was a giant gap in my "I feel like minecraft" time from between Release 1.0 and 1.4.7.
Which game, by the way?
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Actually Greg and Reika are fairly non-traditional in the terms of Minecraft mods with tiers. They actually enforce the tiers fairly effectively, whereas basically every other mod "enforces" their tiers by exploration or material "cost" usually rarity... which isn't actually a cost so much as a semi-limited RNG you can brute-force. I can have basically any block or item in Vanilla, legit, except the nether star in under a half an hour. That's not gating, or if it is, it's not very effective.
There is indeed some irony, but my gods the stuff you have to deal with as a mod author in this community is RIDICULOUS if your mod isn't the standard hand-holder or is the least bit unintuitive.
But you can't craft diamond tools until you've mined some diamonds with your iron tools, which you can't craft until you've gotten cobblestone for a furnace with your wooden tools. How is that different from how all your machines are inaccessible until you have a blast furnace and how blast glass needs a pulse jet furnace (and by extension, jet fuel) first?
Which is not to say that vanilla progression is the same as that in RotaryCraft. In vanilla, you don't need to learn how to use engines, gearboxes, and bevel gears, which is certainly an important part of your mods. But, even in vanilla, you can't say that everything is craftable at all times.
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The main difference I see between vanilla tiers and those in GregTech and RotaryCraft is length. You can get nearly anything in vanilla in half an hour because there's not a whole lot of stuff to get. But whatever it may be- obsidian, say- do you not start with a wooden pickaxe, then a furnace, then an iron pick, then diamonds?
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Roller Coaster Tycoon 3. I was the main maintainer of the tool that allowed the import of custom content into the game after the original dev mostly vanished.
And now I'm using yours, apparently we're even =)I used to use your content.
Well it depends on what you mean by obsidian. If you're trying to get a nether portal, then all you need is wood>wooden pick>stone>stone pick&furnace>iron>bucket.
If you're attempting to get an enchanting table, and hence need the blocks in item form? Yeah. You get to go through the oh-so-strenuous "tech gate" of: Get one log, make crafting bench, get two more logs, make more planks, make sticks with two of those planks, make a wooden pickaxe, mine into the ground, make a cobblestone pick with the spare two sticks in your inventory, make a furnace, find and mine 3-6 iron, find another log, make more planks, make more sticks, make a pickaxe (and a bucket if you aren't going to aquaduct water to lava), find diamonds, mine 3, make a pickaxe, mine obsidian.
If I recall the steps correctly, that's easier to describe than making a tech tier 1 generator in IC, not even IC2 or IC2-Exp, if more time consuming due to mining requirements. So why is an enchanting table considered to be higher tech, or later game than an IndustrialCraft generator? Because vanilla's "tiers" are based on the flawed assumption that rarity = difficulty. It doesn't, it just means (statistically speaking) more time. For some people, it will take less time to build an iron golem farm (sans villagers), or a castle, or a cathedral, or pretty much any other megaproject, than it would to make and fully stock an enchanting room. Because they can't find cows, or reeds, or diamonds are extremely elusive for them.
Whereas Rotarycraft involves you finding redstone, iron, a carbon source (which one for the life of me I can't remember right now), and creepers to get started (yes, I dropped out the obvious steps of making the various pickaxes, and the furnace, and the stone bricks... Stuff that any game which isn't peaceful or creative will have you do). I have yet to meet any minecraft player that knows the simplest things about MC, like redstone is deep in the earth and mobs spawn in the dark, who could not have a piece of HSLA steel by their first or second MC dawn if they decided to dedicate themselves to doing that. One time I spent an entire MC month trying to find the reeds and cows needed to make books.
If you take it to the extreme and want to be particularly focused on the exact definitions? Any mod that doesn't rely 100% upon things you can harvest completely by hand is "tech gated" or has a "tech tier". But just because you will probably manage to not find lava or a cave underneath you, doesn't make digging the block you're standing on a good idea. What is technically true, or even probable isn't always the point, especially when one is talking in broad terms.
Assuming that you have 100% completed vanilla's "tech" You should be perfectly able to build a MFE from any industrialcraft version without crafting a single machine first. The same goes for every single machine in MFR except for the Laser Drill Precharger (you need a slaughterhouse for pink slime first).
Thaumcraft requires a wand, a bookshelf, a research table, ink and scribing tools, and a thaumometer to unlock (nearly) the entire tech tree; only the special unlocks aren't obtainable after you've Scanned All The Things.
Botania only has pre-botania, the petal apothecary, the pure daisy and a mana generator to get living rock/wood, the altar, and then IIRC you're at the top "tier" of the mod; you can craft anything.
IC2 (pre-liquid UU), got Compressor and Macerator? You can make anything else in the mod.
Buildcraft requires a single engine, an assembly table, and a laser to fully unlock the mod.
The same basic progression happens for nearly every mod out there. There generally isn't any tier you can't reach in less than 6 steps, assuming you've gotten a diamond pickaxe.
Some exceptions are Blood Magic, Gregtech, and RotaryCraft, (probably ReactorCraft and Electricraft too). There are large portions of those mods that simply cannot be obtained without having done work in the previous tier, often multiple things. Try making a fusion reactor from Gregtech with the completely raw unprocessed materials in front of you. How about a Bedrock Breaker, a Master Blood Orb, or a Tokamak reactor? You're going to have to progress up the tech tiers for those mods to do so.
The way I look at it is this: Assume you have a fully stocked vanilla base and literally infinite raw worldgen resources. Can you make every item in the mod without having use or place any mod items? Then there are no tiers. If you only need a single mod item/block to get all the tech, it's got 1 tier. If you need two items/blocks and one of them requires another mod item/block to be made? 2 tiers.
IC2 Exp has 4 tiers, because liquid UU is made in a T3 machine, in other words making it requires another industrialcraft machine to be made first. In this case, a macerator, a compressor, and a power generator of some sort. Those machines cannot be made without the hammer and cutters , which are vanilla crafting recipes.
I'd list off the Gregtech or RotaryCraft tiers... but I don't know them well enough, and the research on a wiki or in-game would take significantly more time than I care to put into this post, because at this point, my point should be clear.
Edit: It might look as though there are a few mistakes in my early tech tree examples, like forgetting about the IC2-EXP hammer and cutter requirement for making an MFE, but I was discounting tools when I first started this post and I've already re-written this entire wall of text too many times to want to do it again.
Can't you use TNT to assplode the diamond ore block? Or will it always destroy the item as well (for sake of blärgh we assume that no mod affects TNT)