Technic Team releases Tekkit Lite

[Enigmius1]

I'd be that guy but... Well, ok. I will.

This is the entire thing that puts IP on such shaky ground from a philosophical point of view. Even if I "steal half of your sandwich," you still have all of your sandwich.

You know what I like about philosophy? It's sneaky. Philosophy isn't about answers, it's about questions and critical thinking. "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" Who cares? It's a stupid question. But if you try to dig for an answer, you learn to ask relevant questions and consider relevant details.

Or, you attend public school and we get gong shows like this ;D

 

[Enigmius1]

If a mod developer starts trying to do something I deem out of line, I may feel the same. Currently nothing of the sort has happened though. What is happening right now is people no better than pirates are telling a developer to go screw himself because he wants to protect his property.

He doesn't want to protect his property. There's nothing to protect. Did you see his requirements? That anyone could use his mod in a mod pack as long as they posted in a prominent place a list of all mods with permissions and links and blah blah blah. And what happens to him if that rule isn't respected? Nothing. Nothing at all. He's not losing out on revenue because posting his required list doesn't generate revenue. He's not losing out on ad gate revenue because he's already granted sweeping permissions as long as people post a stupid list. And what a mod pack team might decide is that he has no right to dictate what the mod pack team does with regards to the permissions they've obtained from other devs.

So what exactly is he protecting? Some vague principle? "Publicly demonstrate to me that you have permission from the author of every mod in your pack and you can use mine." That's a pretty poor way to treat people. And then to come storming onto their forum and have a hissy fit meltdown?

You have to get up to speed with the conversation here. You're defending his shameful behavior because he's protecting himself against "pirates" when he is in fact losing nothing by having the Technic crew include his mod. I understand principle. I understand arguing or taking a stand on principle. But if a person is going to argue on principle alone (which is what he's doing), he has to do it right. Even moreso than if he was defending against an actual loss.

 

[raiju]

How would be doing it right then? You're ignoring that he contacted them privately first and he did not "have a hissy fit meltdown". It's a public notice, they're a very common thing in the outside world and do not mean someone is having a hissy fit. It's the correct way to do things and he is following everything in a correct manner.

So what if you don't like his requirements? You don't have to use his mod then. Simple as that. As mentioned you either find a replacement or respect a person for their work and meet their demands. If you can't then you shouldn't be using their property.

About the revenue, money isn't everything to some people. Given the mod probably makes very very little on the side I imagine he values his principles much higher than the few hundred £$€ he may have made from it total.

 

[ATJ]

He doesn't want to protect his property. There's nothing to protect. Did you see his requirements? That anyone could use his mod in a mod pack as long as they posted in a prominent place a list of all mods with permissions and links and blah blah blah. And what happens to him if that rule isn't respected? Nothing. Nothing at all. He's not losing out on revenue because posting his required list doesn't generate revenue. He's not losing out on ad gate revenue because he's already granted sweeping permissions as long as people post a stupid list. And what a mod pack team might decide is that he has no right to dictate what the mod pack team does with regards to the permissions they've obtained from other devs.

So what exactly is he protecting? Some vague principle? "Publicly demonstrate to me that you have permission from the author of every mod in your pack and you can use mine." That's a pretty poor way to treat people. And then to come storming onto their forum and have a hissy fit meltdown?

You have to get up to speed with the conversation here. You're defending his shameful behavior because he's protecting himself against "pirates" when he is in fact losing nothing by having the Technic crew include his mod. I understand principle. I understand arguing or taking a stand on principle. But if a person is going to argue on principle alone (which is what he's doing), he has to do it right. Even moreso than if he was defending against an actual loss.

Not sure if serious... "his shameful behaviour" ???

So a mod author politely asking the mod pack team in private to respect his wishes with regards the permission to use his mod is "shameful behaviour" then? How exactly do you come to this conclusion? I am genuinely interested to understand your mindset here because it's about the craziest thing I've ever heard.

The bottom line is that all the rule-book quoting over permissions, legalities etc is neither here nor there. The issue he has is solely the total lack of respect from the technic mod team where they've completely ignored his requests and wishes. He is 100% in the right to withdraw his mod from the pack and if it were me I'd do exactly the same. Regardless of whether it would lose me exposure to my mod it simply comes down to principles : treat me with respect and I am much more likely to work with you, but treat me with disdain and you can foxtrot right oscar.

 

[Enigmius1]

How would be doing it right then? You're ignoring that he contacted them privately first and he did not "have a hissy fit meltdown". It's a public notice, they're a very common thing in the outside world and do not mean someone is having a hissy fit. It's the correct way to do things and he is following everything in a correct manner.

Here is how you would handle something like that, like an adult, without a hissy fit meltdown, keeping in mind that forums are for the community first, communication to the developers as a distant second.

"I'm posting this here because my previous attempts to resolve this matter in private have not met with results. I am so-and-so, the person who created such-and-such mod. I offer this mod for download to any individual who wants to use it, and I also grant permission to mod pack developers to include my mod in their pack as long as they <whatever requirements here>.

Currently, the developers of this mod pack are using my mod but they have not met the requirements that would grant them permission to do so. My goal with those restrictions is to ensure that the mod developer community is given fair consideration by mod pack developers. As the developers of this mod pack refuse to communicate with me or collaborate to reach an agreement, I feel I have no choice but to inform you, the players, that certain changes may be made to my mod in the near future that will make it non-functional if used in conjunction with the launcher of this mod pack. Rest assured that no malicious game behavior will take place. The mod will simply become unusable. This may cause adverse affects in your game world if certain blocks are removed from the game, and I would urge you to take that into account the next time you log into the game.

It is not my intention or desire to punish the players over this disagreement, however the fact remains that my mod should not have been included with the pack to begin with unless my usage terms were met. I would encourage you if you wish to keep using my mod to contact the mod pact developers and encourage them to adhere to my terms of use or take prompt action to remove my mod from their pack."

NOTE: Mod developers looking for a professional, constructive way to escalate resolution of a conflict with a mod pack developer that has been unresponsive to your reasonable, mature private requests may cut, paste, and modify the above three paragraphs for use in such correspondence, provided that they have not (at any time past or present) resorted to malicious adjustment of mod code as a means of resolving their dispute, nor threats of such malicious adjustments (explicit or implied). You do not need to credit me in your submission, nor demonstrate proof of my permission. You do not need to submit it in a box, you do not need to submit it with a fox. I do not like crybaby mod author spam, I do not like it Sam I am...not. Behave.

 

[Enigmius1]

The bottom line is that all the rule-book quoting over permissions, legalities etc is neither here nor there. The issue he has is solely the total lack of respect from the technic mod team where they've completely ignored his requests and wishes. He is 100% in the right to withdraw his mod from the pack and if it were me I'd do exactly the same. Regardless of whether it would lose me exposure to my mod it simply comes down to principles : treat me with respect and I am much more likely to work with you, but treat me with disdain and you can foxtrot right oscar.

Read my above post. That's polite. It's professional, mature, firm, and specific. No blustering, threatening, or other nonsense. Then go back and read the other post again. The contrast might enlighten you.

 

[raiju]

I don't see the need for such formalities in what should be a friendly community but unfortunately isn't. Also your letter is a proof of permissions (unnecessary as his permissions are already listed elsewhere) and a request for contact. He does not need a request for contact because he has already been in contact. He is putting up a public notice which also concerns the community that he will have to defend his property if tekkit attempt to take it without his consent.

Secondly, your passive aggressive note against Sengir and presumably Covert is hilarious, shows the type of person you are. No threat about malicious code was ever submitted, he stated he will have to take measures that will be a waste of time for both parties. He never claimed or implied any damage would be done to anyone else as a result of his mod. He could simply make minecraft close if his mod is being run with the specific pack. The code does no harm to anything (as it would be on startup before you begin possibly doing things), it causes no world damage, etc.

It was a poster on the tekkit forums who decided to suggest he would destroy peoples worlds with malicious code.

 

[Enigmius1]

I don't see the need for such formalities in what should be a friendly community but unfortunately isn't. Also your letter is a proof of permissions (unnecessary as his permissions are already listed elsewhere) and a request for contact. He does not need a request for contact because he has already been in contact. He is putting up a public notice which also concerns the community that he will have to defend his property if tekkit attempt to take it without his consent.

Secondly, your passive aggressive note against Sengir and presumably Covert is hilarious, shows the type of person you are. No threat about malicious code was ever submitted, he stated he will have to take measures that will be a waste of time for both parties. He never claimed or implied any damage would be done to anyone else as a result of his mod. He could simply make minecraft close if his mod is being run with the specific pack. The code does no harm to anything (as it would be on startup before you begin possibly doing things), it causes no world damage, etc.

It was a poster on the tekkit forums who decided to suggest he would destroy peoples worlds with malicious code.

It's cool. You're not understanding. That's fine. I'm not going to explain any further. You're not interested in reason, you've decided and now you'll split hairs all day long if you think it keeps your argument afloat, and I haven't got time.

 

[ATJ]

I don't see the need for such formalities in what should be a friendly community but unfortunately isn't. Also your letter is a proof of permissions (unnecessary as his permissions are already listed elsewhere) and a request for contact. He does not need a request for contact because he has already been in contact. He is putting up a public notice which also concerns the community that he will have to defend his property if tekkit attempt to take it without his consent.

Secondly, your passive aggressive note against Sengir and presumably Covert is hilarious, shows the type of person you are. No threat about malicious code was ever submitted, he stated he will have to take measures that will be a waste of time for both parties. He never claimed or implied any damage would be done to anyone else as a result of his mod. He could simply make minecraft close if his mod is being run with the specific pack. The code does no harm to anything (as it would be on startup before you begin possibly doing things), it causes no world damage, etc.

It was a poster on the tekkit forums who decided to suggest he would destroy peoples worlds with malicious code.

Agreed. Enigmius' words are very similar to what I would expect from the Technic mod pack team - basically "**** you, I don't care for your requests and wishes, I am going to take it and do what I want regardless."

 

[Antivyris]

NOTE: Mod developers looking for a professional, constructive way to escalate resolution of a conflict with a mod pack developer that has been unresponsive to your reasonable, mature private requests may cut, paste, and modify the above three paragraphs for use in such correspondence, provided that they have not (at any time past or present) resorted to malicious adjustment of mod code as a means of resolving their dispute, nor threats of such malicious adjustments (explicit or implied). You do not need to credit me in your submission, nor demonstrate proof of my permission. You do not need to submit it in a box, you do not need to submit it with a fox. I do not like crybaby mod author spam, I do not like it Sam I am...not. Behave.

Unfortunately, you have to factor in past behaviour of the mod-pack packagers as well. The reason for resorting to the tactics that Sengir did was due to constant 'mature' requests being ignored. The forestry/tekkit debacle essentially soured quite a few developers view. That was the reason for the permission request, they have already showed that they can not necessarily be taken at their word when they say 'We have all permissions'. Past behavior shows different, I would rather believe that CovertJaguar was simply acting in turn with that, as that's what most anyone would do.

Also, you have to remember, your rules do not apply to the Yogscast crowd. You are dealing with a group that originated from SomthingAwful. All moral and social expectations should be thrown at the door at that point. While they may no longer be directly connected, all it takes is some common forum browsing to notice the general attitude. That is the actual reason you have people here worrying about the influx if Yogscast start an FTB series. I don't think I even need to go much farther than bring up the name GoonSwarm to show what groups spawned from that forum can do.

As I said earlier, Tekkit/Technic is made for their crowd, only recently have they been trying to clean up their act because without the help of forge, well, their server futures look bleak as they are only now moving away from bukkit. FTB is made around a single map, not specifically a crowd, which allows them more wiggle-room of sorts as they can wait until absolutely sure before releasing something. The Tekkit/Technic group can't, as they run the risk of their community eating them alive.

This is why you will see mod authors deal with them very heavy handed, or even rudely. They've come to expect that treatment from them. While they may be cleaning up their image now, I believe it will be a very long time before mod authors expect them to be true to their word.

That said, we're getting a bit off-topic, and with your debate with Raiju being long and mostly off-topic, I wouldn't be surprised if it's closed soon, this is what they wanted to avoid.

Back to topic:
If they are finally moving to forge, I wonder if the server-mod developers will finally begin moving major plugins to forge? I know it's been a slow process, but maybe this will speed it up if forge tekkit lite servers begin to become all the rage?

 

[Entropy]

Also, you have to remember, your rules do not apply to the Yogscast crowd. You are dealing with a group that originated from SomthingAwful. All moral and social expectations should be thrown at the door at that point. While they may no longer be directly connected, all it takes is some common forum browsing to notice the general attitude. That is the actual reason you have people here worrying about the influx if Yogscast start an FTB series. I don't think I even need to go much farther than bring up the name GoonSwarm to show what groups spawned from that forum can do.

I think you might be getting confused on who the Yogscast attract. The "Yogscast Crowd" are not people from SA, but rather just random kids (usually young). It's generally our opinion over at SA to just stay out of other people's business. We keep to ourselves, and don't bother other people unless you get some real impetus going. Yes, it's generally not a good idea to mess with SA because they can do some real damage, as minecraft mod developers have discovered. Just wanted to clear that up.

 

[vibur]

Agreed. Enigmius' words are very similar to what I would expect from the Technic mod pack team - basically "**** you, I don't care for your requests and wishes, I am going to take it and do what I want regardless."

That's not even in the same universe with what he said.

 

[Antivyris]

I think you might be getting confused on who the Yogscast attract. The "Yogscast Crowd" are not people from SA, but rather just random kids (usually young). It's generally our opinion over at SA to just stay out of other people's business. We keep to ourselves, and don't bother other people unless you get some real impetus going. Yes, it's generally not a good idea to mess with SA because they can do some real damage, as minecraft mod developers have discovered. Just wanted to clear that up.

Correct, though at first yogscast was a small crowd from SA. What they are now, well, there is no denying where it came from, but the yogscast crowd of today is far more voracious and a lot less private. The younger part of that crowd hasn't dealt with consequences of the likes some of the SA members have, your learn fast there. On the tekkit forums or youtube comments, not so much.

That's not to say SA is a horrible place, they are what they are and can be as harmful or harmless as 4-chan. Sometimes though, what comes out takes life of it's own but still has the traits of what it came from. And with Tekkit being headed by an ex-goon, I'm sure the roots began there. They at least appear to be cleaning up a bit more.

 

[BanzaiBlitz]

The primary issue has nothing to do with rights to this or that line of code. It is about the major violation of respect displayed by Technic in the past. The rest of it is really just grown from this main problem. We could watch the debate run a decade without any better resolutions thus rendering it all pointless before settling the primary issue. Mod devs spend hours, days, weeks, even months of personal time purely for their Minecraft passion and sharing new ways of fun play with the MC community. Expecting basic respect is far from unwarranted, though they deserve a mountain of respect for all they go through without any real compensation beyond personal satisfaction.

Personally, I see Technic eventually dying off or otherwise turning largely ignored. FTB however, is most probably going to continue growing like the star it is showing itself to be. As mods increasingly support Forge (and the bukkit replacement in Essentials) combined with the close relationships the FTB team has with the mod devs themselves, all other options will gradually pale ever farther in contrast. Solid friendships have grown and inter-mod compatibility (and even balance!) is getting better than could have been expected. I like to think the commitment to respecting mod devs at it's core is one of the biggest factors in FTB's ever growing success.

 

[Zelfana]

The reason why CovertJaguar raised his voice is this page: http://www.technicpack.net/tekkit-lite/ (click mod list)

It is missing a lot of other mods' makers and links. RailCraft itself is correctly credited but other mods are not. So CovertJaguar is just acting on behalf of the other modmakers. He is actually being a polar opposite of selfish here, his mod is credited just fine.

 

[Entropy]

The reason why CovertJaguar raised his voice is this page: http://www.technicpack.net/tekkit-lite/ (click mod list)

It is missing a lot of other mods' makers and links. RailCraft itself is correctly credited but other mods are not. So CovertJaguar is just acting on behalf of the other modmakers. He is actually being a polar opposite of selfish here, his mod is credited just fine.

He specifically said Tekkit Lite is missing its "proper permissions", whatever they may be. The whole thing is pretty new, it's pretty obvious their mod list hasn't been finished yet.

 

[danidas]

That is not a permission list or a license list, take a look at the Voltz pack on the technic site for what Covert wanted to see. At the very lease he wanted a list of links to each of the mods license sections for the open source and free to use mods, as well as a message from the author for each that need permissions.

 

[Jadedcat]

Guys please get back on topic. While the conversation surrounding modders rights is interesting its not what this thread is about. Start that conversation elsewhere. I would rather not have to lock the thread.

 

[LazDude2012]

On topic: Tekkit Lite is interesting, but unfortunately, without Bukkit, any Tekkit going forward will be a pale shadow of what it used to be.

 

[Gerhard]

Watch out on the politics between mod author permission, FTB, and Tekkit. Again, this thread is more about the mods and their inclusion/exclusion of different packs and going off on a tangent that could devolve into a circlejerk and/or flame war is just going to get us locked.

As for the trees issue, I would quite frankly love it if there were a mod that gives an item that lets you literally fell trees - Trees falling over when broken by a certain item (A Logger's Axe or something of that ilk) would be fantastic and not as overpowered as, say, the insta-chop Treecapitator. Unfortunately, nobody's written this.