Tech mods: Why have a power system?

[OreCruncher]

As for the part on how modders should do their own thing, I agree that they should, but the amount of pressure on them to use RF as it currently is is a bit crazy. I'd ping Reika and let him talk about the demands he gets to use RF, but it isn't worth his time. So yes, there is a mindset that you have to please players as a modder, because if you don't many will flame you simply because they can.

I don't think I entirely agree with this, though I can understand the point you are trying to make. The reason I don't entirely agree is the statement regarding motivation ("because if you don't...").

For my mod I chose RF for the following reasons:

1. I have always liked Thermal Expansion, and wanted to have a mod that fit in with that. Being RF was secondary, but since TE used RF I worked with RF.

2. RF based power systems are in a lot of modpacks. How it became that way is covered in a variety of different ways in this thread. The upshot is that from a modding standpoint if I wanted my mod to be broadly appealing I would have to adopt RF. In essence it was a business decision.

If I were to make a guess a lot of modders choose RF because of point #2 not because of any fear of flaming. RF based power systems hit critical mass in public packs and it would make sense to adopt. If another power framework came a long and displaced RF my guess would be that modders would adopt that power system.

 

[Padfoote]

That may be true. I just had the assumption that most anti-RF players had that mindset because I remember reading either here or on the FTB subreddit that "pretty multiblock structures don't solve RF". Which is true to some extent, as some multiblock structures are still fairly simplistic in usage, the only thing that really changes is the material cost. Basically a replacement to nested crafting.

That would explain why I've never heard it before, I never go on reddit. But yeah, they aren't wrong in saying that it doesn't fix RF, it just fixes that magic block feeling I get with TE.

I understand that its hard to always maintain a thick skin in situations such as these, not everyone is capable of doing that and sometimes even if you are you could easily crumble if exposed to it for a long time. But considering the amount of time and effort that goes in to modding nowadays it really should be the #1 priority of any modder to do it for the pure enjoyment of it. There are always going to be assholes who will pressure modders for one thing or another but that should not get in the way of your project.

I do agree, but the reality is that those people do get in the way. Not much that can be done about it though.

I don't think I entirely agree with this, though I can understand the point you are trying to make. The reason I don't entirely agree is the statement regarding motivation ("because if you don't...").

For my mod I chose RF for the following reasons:

1. I have always liked Thermal Expansion, and wanted to have a mod that fit in with that. Being RF was secondary, but since TE used RF I worked with RF.

2. From a business standpoint RF based power systems are in a lot of modpacks. How it became that way is covered in a variety of different ways in this thread. The upshot is that from a modding standpoint if I wanted my mod to be broadly appealing I would have to adopt RF. In essence it was a business decision.

If I were to make a guess a lot of modders choose RF because of point #2 not because of any fear of flaming. RF based power systems hit critical mass in public packs and it would make sense to adopt. If another power framework came a long and displaced RF my guess would be that modders would adopt that power system.

That business decision still doesn't sit well with me. Modders shouldn't have to sit down and decide to go with one system or another simply because it's a popular system. I get what you did and why you did it, and if you're happy with it then that's great, but it's still that community pressure to do something popular. Look at Tema and XU for an example. The 8x and 64x generators nearly didn't happen because the community threw a temper tantrum over it.

Edit: Post merging.

 

[OreCruncher]

That business decision still doesn't sit well with me. Modders shouldn't have to sit down and decide to go with one system or another simply because it's a popular system. I get what you did and why you did it, and if you're happy with it then that's great, but it's still that community pressure to do something popular. Look at Tema and XU for an example. The 8x and 64x generators nearly didn't happen because the community threw a temper tantrum over it.

There will always be community pressure of some sort, I think. It's a matter of whether it is recognized as such. What motivated me to come up with my mod was the lack of some sort of recycling in current packs (the community of modpack authors weren't including IC2 thus causing the pressure). I just ran with it a bit and put my spin on it and expanded the notion of recycling and what it could mean to the player. I should state that in this case "pressure" could be equated with "necessity" rather than the negative connotation of pressure meaning "to make someone do something against their judgement".

 

[Padfoote]

There will always be community pressure of some sort, I think. It's a matter of whether it is recognized as such. What motivated me to come up with my mod was the lack of some sort of recycling in current packs (the community of modpack authors weren't including IC2 thus causing the pressure). I just ran with it a bit and put my spin on it and expanded the notion of recycling and what it could mean to the player. I should state that in this case "pressure" could be equated with "necessity" rather than the negative connotation of pressure meaning "to make someone do something against their judgement".

And that's something that makes total sense. You saw a need for something in the RF world, so you added it. The pressure in that case was the lack of a certain feature. The bit that concerns me and several others is that the community mindset is, seemingly for the most part, that if something isn't RF, it's automatically bad and needs to be converted. If that could change so that devs felt like they could do what they wanted with their mods without getting flamed for it, things would be much better. I feel that if that happened, this whole "RF vs. everything else" debate would fade quite a bit and we'd be less likely to see people trying to force others to play their way.

 

[OreCruncher]

And that's something that makes total sense. You saw a need for something in the RF world, so you added it. The pressure in that case was the lack of a certain feature. The bit that concerns me and several others is that the community mindset is, seemingly for the most part, that if something isn't RF, it's automatically bad and needs to be converted. If that could change so that devs felt like they could do what they wanted with their mods without getting flamed for it, things would be much better. I feel that if that happened, this whole "RF vs. everything else" debate would fade quite a bit and we'd be less likely to see people trying to force others to play their way.

I agree that any position that says "A is better and B is crap" is ridiculous. I personally ignore those statements because they are purely opinion and contribute nothing. I should also state that giving valid criticism can be a difficult thing to do. Main reason is that a person has to dig deep to understand their misgivings and communicate it effectively to affect change. I will go out on a limb and state that a lot of posters have not matured enough to have reached this stage, and don't realize that their "contribution" does nothing.

 

[Chocohead]

So you mean automating potions without MFR or AE or EnderIO is trivial? Sure.

You've got Buildcraft, so it might be a little harder than trivial, but certainly still a viable option.

 

[Padfoote]

I agree that any position that says "A is better and B is crap" is ridiculous. I personally ignore those statements because they are purely opinion and contribute nothing. I should also state that giving valid criticism can be a difficult thing to do. Main reason is that a person has to dig deep to understand their misgivings and communicate it effectively to affect change. I will go out on a limb and state that a lot of posters have not matured enough to have reached this stage, and don't realize that their "contribution" does nothing.

Absolutely agreed on this. If people could realize what is helpful to post and what isn't things like this would be less likely to happen.

 

[Type1Ninja]

I may be a bit late, but on the note that HTD (Hardcore Thermal Dynamics, as I've now decided to call e hypothetical mod ), would probably not achieve huge popularity - that's ok by me. I just want it to be possible to have harder energy transfer, so that if I want a bigger challenge, I can have it.

On the note of RF pressure: I don't want pressure on modders who want to make/use a unique power system. However, as someone who previously has made statements like this, I will say that my motivation was to prevent redundancy in other people's work - reinventing the wheel. So, now, I would say "anything NOT trying to be a new power system should first consider RF as a power system, then look at other systems." I would say that simply because RF has compatibility with everything. On the other hand, that statement is easily misconstrued, so I won't say it again.

 

[OreCruncher]

On the note of RF pressure: I don't want pressure on modders who want to make/use a unique power system. However, as someone who previously has made statements like this, I will say that my motivation was to prevent redundancy in other people's work - reinventing the wheel. So, now, I would say "anything NOT trying to be a new power system should first consider RF as a power system, then look at other systems." I would say that simply because RF has compatibility with everything. On the other hand, that statement is easily misconstrued, so I won't say it again.

I would think that redundancy is OK between mods. Though there may be similarities in function and implementation the differences may be more appealing to a player or somehow enable solving problems in unique ways. It also provides a bit of competition that encourages evolution. Of course, it could devolve down into the "me to" thing, but that's up to the authors. The main thing that should be worried about is redundancy between mods in the *same* modpack.

 

[keybounce]

So now the question is, what would be your ideal power system? If you could take RF as it stands right now and change it to how you want it, what would you change?

I don't know enough.

One thing that I do know, that I have no work-around for, is that an RF machine apparently accepts power from all sides, so even if I remove the free, lossless RF power conduits, 4 or 5 engines can be placed next to any machine.

I am not talking about power gen here as power gen is the same for every tech mod, x fuel in =y power/work out. Even RotaryCraft follows this paradigm. Where it differs is transmission and useage requirements.

Hmm; consider that engine X consumes something that has to be made by no less than engine X-2. So you need a chain of infrastructure/industry.

No more "Just build the machine, and it goes". Getting machine X requires X-1 or X-2 to be running.
===

On the multiblock side-line: Consider this idea. RF mods have fixed-form multiblock structures that cannot be built any other way, Reika's Rotary/Reactor craft have free-form multiblocks that will vary in behavior depending on how they are built.

(One extractor block won't do anything; all the engines, gears, redstone etc. will.)

 

[Azzanine]

Hmm; consider that engine X consumes something that has to be made by no less than engine X-2. So you need a chain of infrastructure/industry.

No more "Just build the machine, and it goes". Getting machine X requires X-1 or X-2 to be running.
===

On the multiblock side-line: Consider this idea. RF mods have fixed-form multiblock structures that cannot be built any other way, Reika's Rotary/Reactor craft have free-form multiblocks that will vary in behavior depending on how they are built.

(One extractor block won't do anything; all the engines, gears, redstone etc. will.)

Must just be me but I never find feeding engines/ reactors to be overly complicated. No engine dynamo or reactor has ran on anything exotic enough to be considered complicated.
Maybe it's not just power management that has been made trivial.
I mean the most complicated RF build that wasn't MCtlj's ender reactor thingo from RFTools. Was setting up a cursed earth mob spawner that ran off reactant dynamos filled with mob essence and gunpowder with rotten flesh and spider eyes going to cullinary gens. It was self sufficient and was power positive. But even that was as simple as connecting thepipes right, maybe setting up a filter or two.

Maybe Minecraft just doesn't fulfill the technical player anymore.



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[OreCruncher]

Maybe Minecraft just doesn't fulfill the technical player anymore.

I think two things could be happening:

• Feature fatigue. Seems like most tech heavy mods have a method of converting a piece of ore to N dust, and then into Y ingots. Been there, done that, got the nether star. To be honest I think some of the commentary in this thread has its roots in this.
• I have noticed that players have difficulty with the sandbox nature of the game. What I mean is that they have a challenge setting up a problem that would be a challenge for them to solve. I saw this quite a bit in chat on public servers where players would complain about being bored and wanting someone to tell them what to do. What those players are looking for is a bit more structure around their game play and are unable to do it themselves.

 

[Adagiovibe]

I think two things could be happening:

• Feature fatigue. Seems like most tech heavy mods have a method of converting a piece of ore to N dust, and then into Y ingots. Been there, done that, got the nether star. To be honest I think some of the commentary in this thread has its roots in this.
• I have noticed that players have difficulty with the sandbox nature of the game. What I mean is that they have a challenge setting up a problem that would be a challenge for them to solve. I saw this quite a bit in chat on public servers where players would complain about being bored and wanting someone to tell them what to do. What those players are looking for is a bit more structure around their game play and are unable to do it themselves.

That may be also due to how resource gathering has become the bigger focus in the modding community (for some people) rather than obtaining tools and toys to materialize your creativity.

Then again, creative builds in a sandbox environment can only go so far when you've been playing the same game, quite regularly, for many years. Boredom and burnout are a thing that any game that's been around for a while has to face and Minecraft is certainly no exception.

 

[skruis]

• I have noticed that players have difficulty with the sandbox nature of the game. What I mean is that they have a challenge setting up a problem that would be a challenge for them to solve. I saw this quite a bit in chat on public servers where players would complain about being bored and wanting someone to tell them what to do. What those players are looking for is a bit more structure around their game play and are unable to do it themselves.

I think that's part of the reason "quest" mods are getting more and more popular. The game is still sandbox'd but someone else is giving you a laundry list of things to do. I noticed a friend of mine was getting bored in Minecraft saying "what else is there?". I noticed his problem wasn't that there wasn't anything to do but that he did too much of just one thing that that one thing became the game for him. Modded MC for me is a mix of exploration, loot hunts, mob fighting, creative building in survival w/ limited resources, resource gathering for that purpose, some basic automation and the accompanying problem solving, etc. Sandbox 'packs' aren't always appropriate for easily bored players because there's no guide telling you what to do.

Sorry to go off topic.

 

[OreCruncher]

Then again, creative builds in a sandbox environment can only go so far when you've been playing the same game, quite regularly, for many years. Boredom and burnout are a thing that any game that's been around for a while has to face and Minecraft is certainly no exception.

Perhaps I should have said "some things come to mind" rather than "two things could be happening". Certainly boredom is an issue for anything that we do regardless if it a game, work, etc. When I find myself bored with things I shift gears to something else, and I will eventually come back. For me Minecraft has more sticking power because I am a builder by nature and Minecraft allows me to do that.

Sorry to go off topic.

No, I think your comment is on topic. As it applies to this thread the enjoyment of setting up a power system is based on how a player sees it. To some, it is an evil to be dealt with and they would rather not. It bores them to tears, and in fact can get under their skin a bit. To others (like me) setting up a power system is a challenge, especially when I try to find the most inane obscure way to generate power with the mods at hand. I try and avoid doing the same thing twice.

 

[Type1Ninja]

Perhaps I should have said "some things come to mind" rather than "two things could be happening". Certainly boredom is an issue for anything that we do regardless if it a game, work, etc. When I find myself bored with things I shift gears to something else, and I will eventually come back. For me Minecraft has more sticking power because I am a builder by nature and Minecraft allows me to do that.



No, I think your comment is on topic. As it applies to this thread the enjoyment of setting up a power system is based on how a player sees it. To some, it is an evil to be dealt with and they would rather not. It bores them to tears, and in fact can get under their skin a bit. To others (like me) setting up a power system is a challenge, especially when I try to find the most inane obscure way to generate power with the mods at hand. I try and avoid doing the same thing twice.

What you're saying is what I'm thinking: keeping yourself occupied is a skill, and it's one we all need to develop. Variety is the spice of RF; challenge yourself to do something different.

 

[skruis]

To others (like me) setting up a power system is a challenge, especially when I try to find the most inane obscure way to generate power with the mods at hand. I try and avoid doing the same thing twice.

Exactly. There's so much in modded MC that the game is what you make it which is one of the reasons why I think it's important to maintain a variety of difficulty levels in power generation and distribution ... because not everyone plays the same way or agrees with others about what's fun or what's difficult vs aggravating. In that scenario, a tiered structure like the original poster suggests works. So too does RF's current implementation and all other power formats.

As to whether or not its appropriate for a given mod author to be pressured into one format or another, I think that should be based realistically on the target demographic and impact the mod is going to have on the players style. I wrote a mod called Athena for ARMA 3 ... noone uses it but I made it the way I did because "I" wanted to use it. Releasing it to the public was just a byproduct. If a mod developer is creating a mod and popularity is important to them, that's fine but backseat grumbling about the power option chosen by the dev is misguided. I mean, most of the talk here has been about perceived electrical replacements. What about magical? What about LP, mana, vis? Should we standardize those as well? Should we say one is too easy when compared to the other? I'm not an expert at TC but I enjoy it. I also enjoy Ender IO, TE, etc. but I'm not expecting to be able to recharge the VIS in my wand using RF. There's nothing wrong with a mod developer establishing their own power format or choosing one over the other but the community doesn't owe usage to a developer in such a way that it's wrong for a developer to feel pressured if their goal is to become popular.

Edit reason: removed a rant.

 

[epidemia78]

Sorry to go OT but since the topic is mods with realistic power gen, Id like some advice about Magneticraft. Ive set up six steam turbines from that mod, each have one connection for medium voltage output. Im converting most of that power to RF via a set of converters which only accept low voltage. The med to low conversion is done through a single transformer.

My problem is, the turbines are only running at half speed even though full of steam, and always have a full energy buffer inside. So Im not extracting the power quick enough. The mod has some things I do not understand like transistors and something called "resistance" (the name of which I think is due to english not being the authors native tongue) and Im pretty sure Im doing it wrong.

Advice?

Heres my turbine room btw. Ugly Big reactors turbines have met their maker.

 

[malicious_bloke]

Purdy

 

[Azzanine]

Sorry to go OT but since the topic is mods with realistic power gen, Id like some advice about Magneticraft. Ive set up six steam turbines from that mod, each have one connection for medium voltage output. Im converting most of that power to RF via a set of converters which only accept low voltage. The med to low conversion is done through a single transformer.

My problem is, the turbines are only running at half speed even though full of steam, and always have a full energy buffer inside. So Im not extracting the power quick enough. The mod has some things I do not understand like transistors and something called "resistance" (the name of which I think is due to english not being the authors native tongue) and Im pretty sure Im doing it wrong.

Advice?

Heres my turbine room btw. Ugly Big reactors turbines have met their maker.

Just spitballing here but have you tried useing high voltage outputs and using an extra transformer to step down?
Then again I have never seen nor used Magneticraft so I don't know how it's power works.
Maybe you only need to use 50% steam?

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