Actually, speaking of "harder RF storage and transfer," is it possible to separate out Immersive Engineering's cables from the main mod? I'm not totally familiar with the mechanics, but it seems that that might be the slightly harder transfer/storage we're looking for.
Tech mods: Why have a power system?
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So I can play with the more difficult cables without feeling guilty about ignoring the rest of the mod, with it's specific progression and cool stuff. Kinda like wanting EnderIO's energy/fluid/item transport cables, but not wanting to feel guilty about having an entire set of machines you never use.
Eh, from what I've seen its not all that much different than Thermal Dynamics, apart from the visuals.
I second epidemia's notion.
IE has ore doubling gated to the nether assuming you don't use a mod that allows earlier access to blaze rods/ dust. Plus there's a lot of waiting needed to gather steel for the constructs. So if you where to construct a difficult RF pack you could make IE the star.
I'm actually testing a pack where the only tech mods are Reika's Tech suite of mods, the BC trio plus a mod called BuildCraft additions that ties automated ore doubling to lazer arrays. Also has an interesting mechanic for early ore processing. Jumping on your ore. Also the energy buffer red button... ohh so enticeicing.
I for some masochistic reason haven't added Applied Energistics to the pack, only storage option I have is Iron Chests and maybe RoC's powered storage, never tinkered with that.
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IE has ore doubling gated to the nether assuming you don't use a mod that allows earlier access to blaze rods/ dust. Plus there's a lot of waiting needed to gather steel for the constructs. So if you where to construct a difficult RF pack you could make IE the star.
I'm actually testing a pack where the only tech mods are Reika's Tech suite of mods, the BC trio plus a mod called BuildCraft additions that ties automated ore doubling to lazer arrays. Also has an interesting mechanic for early ore processing. Jumping on your ore. Also the energy buffer red button... ohh so enticeicing.
I for some masochistic reason haven't added Applied Energistics to the pack, only storage option I have is Iron Chests and maybe RoC's powered storage, never tinkered with that.
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I'd like to put in my two cents on this:
I think that most (particularly new) FTB players tend to go for the easiest system to set up that gets them the most reward with tech mods. While they have a great many mods to use to set things up, they generally only pick a few to use in their system. Look at MFR autofarms; they've become the standard way to automate tree and crop farming. Why? Because they're too easy. Put down dirt, put farm block, use EnderIO or Thermal Dynamics connected to farm and harvester, provide power and initial seeds/saplings, and you're done. The process is very simple, and very efficient. You even get sludge from the harvester that you can pump out for bonus stuff (very helpful in skyblock modpacks). Most players choose MFR over Forestry MultiFarms simply due to the easy setup and easy maintenance. RF is very simple and easy: Fuel -> Generator -> Conduit/Duct/Whatever -> Machines. This simplicity helps bring new players into the world of "heavily modded" Minecraft, introducing them to power mechanics that are now second-nature to FTB veterans like us. When I first started playing FTB in 1.4.2 (FTB Beta A), and I discovered the "Redstone Furnace" from Thermal Expansion, the first thing I thought when I built it was, "Where's the fuel slot?" and "What are all these tabs?" Then when I discovered it needed some sort of power, I looked for something to power it. I tried the windmill from IC2, with refined iron wires. For reasons that are obvious to me now, it didn't work. The very concept of multiple types of power (EU and MJ) were too much for a mod newb like myself. It took me about half an hour before I even realized that IC2 could not be used to power MJ machines. My point is, RF is user-friendly, and very intuitive. It doesn't require any understanding of how electricity works in real life, or a lot of research to discover it. Being newb-friendly makes RF (and MFR) so appealing and so successful.
Someone was asking about modern mods with "hardcore" energy storage and transfer. The only modern mod I can think of that has "hardcore" energy storage and transfer is GregTech. I did a little bit of a playthrough (before my computer crashed) of Beyond Reality, and even the first steam tier was intimidating. GregTech is a hardcore mod, and attracts players who are looking for a new challenge. Thermal Expansion, Thermal Dynamics, and most of MFR are excluded or disabled to force the player to go with GregTech, and try something new. I couldn't build an MFR tree farm, so I experimented and used Thaumcraft insted. It turns out golems are far more efficient with jungle trees, and better looking. You don't really play GregTech for the perks of fast ore processing and doubling. You play GregTech for the new challenge. These are players who don't want an easy route like RF; they want to do things the hard way.
I've found that playing FTB simply for setting up bare-bones systems to get exactly what you want as easily and efficiently as possible becomes very boring very fast. I used to play this way, with ores going into TE pulverizers and then into redstone furnaces, but that kind of setup gets boring really quickly. What I've found is that it's more fun to make your systems as interesting as possible, even if it means your resources take more time and use more energy or (gasp) fuel to reach their destination. Sure, you can have a cow farm with an MFR breeder and chronotyper, then pushing into a third pen with a grinder or butcher, but that's not as fun as that third pen putting cows in minecarts via Railcraft, which drops the cows onto a conveyor belt leading up to a small building, dropping them into BoP quicksand, where more conveyor belts move the drops into a hopper and into a chest minecart (more Railcraft), which gets all the drops to your chest/barrel/AE/whatever. Why use Railcraft and conveyor belts to do all that transport, when Itemducts and straight killing are more efficient? Because it's more fun. Look at ScottulusMaximus, rhn, epidemia78; their builds aren't just for the aesthetic feel, they make every piece of their bases an important part of the system. ScottulusMaximus' automated steel factory isn't just a couple of ducts hooked up to a blast furnace in his backyard, he routes coal coke and iron into a building with Railcraft, drops them onto MFR conveyor belts, routes them to another building with the actual blast furnace, creates the steel, melts it with TConstruct, transports the molten steel again via Railcraft, re-casts the ingot with a TConstruct casting table, routes the steel ingots back to where the coal coke and iron came in yet again via Railcraft, and only then is the steel put in the AE system. My point is, going just for the most efficient and compact build is only fun for so long. After that, the only way for tech to be fun again is to stop looking for the perfect system, and start creating the most interesting one.
I think that most (particularly new) FTB players tend to go for the easiest system to set up that gets them the most reward with tech mods. While they have a great many mods to use to set things up, they generally only pick a few to use in their system. Look at MFR autofarms; they've become the standard way to automate tree and crop farming. Why? Because they're too easy. Put down dirt, put farm block, use EnderIO or Thermal Dynamics connected to farm and harvester, provide power and initial seeds/saplings, and you're done. The process is very simple, and very efficient. You even get sludge from the harvester that you can pump out for bonus stuff (very helpful in skyblock modpacks). Most players choose MFR over Forestry MultiFarms simply due to the easy setup and easy maintenance. RF is very simple and easy: Fuel -> Generator -> Conduit/Duct/Whatever -> Machines. This simplicity helps bring new players into the world of "heavily modded" Minecraft, introducing them to power mechanics that are now second-nature to FTB veterans like us. When I first started playing FTB in 1.4.2 (FTB Beta A), and I discovered the "Redstone Furnace" from Thermal Expansion, the first thing I thought when I built it was, "Where's the fuel slot?" and "What are all these tabs?" Then when I discovered it needed some sort of power, I looked for something to power it. I tried the windmill from IC2, with refined iron wires. For reasons that are obvious to me now, it didn't work. The very concept of multiple types of power (EU and MJ) were too much for a mod newb like myself. It took me about half an hour before I even realized that IC2 could not be used to power MJ machines. My point is, RF is user-friendly, and very intuitive. It doesn't require any understanding of how electricity works in real life, or a lot of research to discover it. Being newb-friendly makes RF (and MFR) so appealing and so successful.
Someone was asking about modern mods with "hardcore" energy storage and transfer. The only modern mod I can think of that has "hardcore" energy storage and transfer is GregTech. I did a little bit of a playthrough (before my computer crashed) of Beyond Reality, and even the first steam tier was intimidating. GregTech is a hardcore mod, and attracts players who are looking for a new challenge. Thermal Expansion, Thermal Dynamics, and most of MFR are excluded or disabled to force the player to go with GregTech, and try something new. I couldn't build an MFR tree farm, so I experimented and used Thaumcraft insted. It turns out golems are far more efficient with jungle trees, and better looking. You don't really play GregTech for the perks of fast ore processing and doubling. You play GregTech for the new challenge. These are players who don't want an easy route like RF; they want to do things the hard way.
I've found that playing FTB simply for setting up bare-bones systems to get exactly what you want as easily and efficiently as possible becomes very boring very fast. I used to play this way, with ores going into TE pulverizers and then into redstone furnaces, but that kind of setup gets boring really quickly. What I've found is that it's more fun to make your systems as interesting as possible, even if it means your resources take more time and use more energy or (gasp) fuel to reach their destination. Sure, you can have a cow farm with an MFR breeder and chronotyper, then pushing into a third pen with a grinder or butcher, but that's not as fun as that third pen putting cows in minecarts via Railcraft, which drops the cows onto a conveyor belt leading up to a small building, dropping them into BoP quicksand, where more conveyor belts move the drops into a hopper and into a chest minecart (more Railcraft), which gets all the drops to your chest/barrel/AE/whatever. Why use Railcraft and conveyor belts to do all that transport, when Itemducts and straight killing are more efficient? Because it's more fun. Look at ScottulusMaximus, rhn, epidemia78; their builds aren't just for the aesthetic feel, they make every piece of their bases an important part of the system. ScottulusMaximus' automated steel factory isn't just a couple of ducts hooked up to a blast furnace in his backyard, he routes coal coke and iron into a building with Railcraft, drops them onto MFR conveyor belts, routes them to another building with the actual blast furnace, creates the steel, melts it with TConstruct, transports the molten steel again via Railcraft, re-casts the ingot with a TConstruct casting table, routes the steel ingots back to where the coal coke and iron came in yet again via Railcraft, and only then is the steel put in the AE system. My point is, going just for the most efficient and compact build is only fun for so long. After that, the only way for tech to be fun again is to stop looking for the perfect system, and start creating the most interesting one.
It is the nature of video games to provide a limited quantity of progression content. The appeal of vanilla minecraft is surely the almost complete absence of progression.
Modded minecraft has muddied the waters somewhat with many mods providing varying levels of content to progress through. But, ultimately, if you "play" MFR, or RotaryCraft or GregTech, you will reach the end of the tech tree, and be faced with starting a new world, or continuing on undaunted by the lack of external direction guiding your next move.
So long lasting enjoyment in minecraft can only be attained by embracing the core of the game - its about building. For as long as you have a castle, town, high tech complex to build, minecraft provides the canvas, and mods provide the tools, to build on. The progression of the mods used is not unimportant - or we would play in Creative Mode - but ultimately secondary.
Modded minecraft has muddied the waters somewhat with many mods providing varying levels of content to progress through. But, ultimately, if you "play" MFR, or RotaryCraft or GregTech, you will reach the end of the tech tree, and be faced with starting a new world, or continuing on undaunted by the lack of external direction guiding your next move.
So long lasting enjoyment in minecraft can only be attained by embracing the core of the game - its about building. For as long as you have a castle, town, high tech complex to build, minecraft provides the canvas, and mods provide the tools, to build on. The progression of the mods used is not unimportant - or we would play in Creative Mode - but ultimately secondary.
Well said. I play to build, but I find the early game grind to be tedious and boring. I dont enjoy waiting on furnaces, mining is sleep-inducing and I hate having to look around for god-knows how long looking for endermen, especially without some walk speed boost. Minecraft's way of handling player death is especially annoying in modded where the equipment you drop is so much harder to replace. Dark Souls isnt even that unforgiving. Its hard to resist the temptation to cheat in certain items, but doing so feels unrewarding. I still want to earn my progress, but not have my every project interrupted by yet another mining expedition or tedious craft...
For all its flaws, I find Mekanism to be my favorite balanced tech mod out there. The really useful stuff such as ore processing, flight and auto mining can be conquered in a short amount of time, but its also got some complex challenges later on if you choose. And mine/modtweaker is great because I can make recipes for things like enderpearls, recipes that seem fair to me.
So...why have a power system? Because its fun. The question seems sarcastic anyway, a passive agressive way of saying people who dont mind RF are dumb.
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Yeah. I added rubble pile spawns to my mod to help offset that early grind. I don't think it is anything that breaks the bank, but does hit the gas peddle a little bit more.
As for handling items on player death I use Dr. Cyno's Lootable Bodies. It sucks to lose items especially when a server derps out or lag makes you stumble into a lava pit. At least with this mod it keeps your items, but you have to somehow get back to death point.
Endermen... what sucks it that some mods are so heavily dependent on pearls you have to make it to the end before making items. By the time I make it to the end (i.e. bother trying to find a Stronghold) I am at endgame.
It's not sarcastic. Vanilla has almost no concept of power beyond a furnace. Things just take time.
So why not have tech mods where the equipment just takes time, possibly a redstone signal, possibly a heat source, and that's it? Why have engines, power transmission, etc., at all?
I shouldnt make assumptions, sorry. Anyway vanilla does at least hint at power systems, it has redstone signals and on/off switches. And crafting is simply trading one resource for another which is not so different from burning fuels for power. Its a game about resource management.
Don't forget XP. Exchanging it for enchants on an item in an enchanting table, or using to repair items in an Anvil. XP is produced by killing mobs, mining coal, etc.
What it comes down to is perspective.
Just going to say the easier mods are useful to me I've been play since alpha packs of ftb and I enjoyed the complex stuff when I was on a server but with computer like mine I can't handle the really cool complex stuff that i want to. I tried doing a biofuel gen with forestry and my computer went do to 15fps when I had it set up the mods have their uses and sometimes I get it in my head saying " I don't want to stand here for an hour crafting"
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There was a discussion about something similar to this in another thread but I'll pretty much repeat what I said before, that is that Minecraft is still ultimately a sandbox game. The needs of the players will be met by modders, whichever those may be. Not everyone has the time on a day to day basis to sit down and play "a compelling modpack with balanced progression". Yes with a little effort you can reach ore doubling and good gear after some time, but a lot of people, myself included, only have a few hours a night or even per week to sink in to Minecraft. After a stressful day the last thing I want to be doing is fiddling around with vanilla or grindy mechanics for god knows how long before I have the resources to set up basic infrastructure.
I do agree though that once people find something convenient and easy to use, it becomes very hard for some people to steer away from that in order to explore other options. Personally I don't play with MFR anymore as I find it simplifies certain basic processes way too much. Thanks to my decision, I know meet the needs that MFR met through other mods and I got to experience what they have to offer.
It essentially comes down to finding an equilibrium of sorts. I disagree with the notion that all mods should try to balance around each other with the notion that powercreep must be stomped with a design choice of hardcore progression, but at the same time players who become accustomed to X mod to fulfill X function should go through some effort to step outside their comfort zone once in a while, as they might eventually encounter a mod that they will really enjoy playing. I used to steer away from magic mods as I found them too time consuming, but after forcing myself to play in a modpack completely devoid of tech options, I found myself enjoying Thaumcraft and Botania. I can't play without them now.
I do agree though that once people find something convenient and easy to use, it becomes very hard for some people to steer away from that in order to explore other options. Personally I don't play with MFR anymore as I find it simplifies certain basic processes way too much. Thanks to my decision, I know meet the needs that MFR met through other mods and I got to experience what they have to offer.
It essentially comes down to finding an equilibrium of sorts. I disagree with the notion that all mods should try to balance around each other with the notion that powercreep must be stomped with a design choice of hardcore progression, but at the same time players who become accustomed to X mod to fulfill X function should go through some effort to step outside their comfort zone once in a while, as they might eventually encounter a mod that they will really enjoy playing. I used to steer away from magic mods as I found them too time consuming, but after forcing myself to play in a modpack completely devoid of tech options, I found myself enjoying Thaumcraft and Botania. I can't play without them now.