Exactly, I am prepared to suspend my disbelief for some things, but not everything.
Should ic2 be boycotted untill the power system is fixed ??
- Thread starter Corinanth
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Actually, RotaryCraft is not perfect, too, but it is good and I like it.
Here's some things (other than electric engine issues I listed before)
1) Power system is kinda fine, but if you think about it, it looks like engines don't know about the load. Gas engine runs at a certain speed. You load it - it still runs at that speed. Try to do that with your car with manual gearbox. And thus torque works kinda unrealistically - any engine produces the same amount of torque no matter what the load is, but in real life, if you disconnect engine from it's load it will start speeding up - you can also try that while driving a car with a manual gearbox - if you disengage the clutch while maintaining the same throttle, engine will speed up pretty fast. There are some physics (well, the "rotational version" of the Newton's second law actually) explaining this and I'm pretty sure that Reika is aware about all that stuff, but I guess that might be insanely hard to code and use.
2) The bad thing it brings to us is the splitting power via shaft junction. IRL, if you have an engine powering, say, two fans if you disconnect one, the second one will just speed up, but in rotarycraft the junction will just waste power.
3) The fact that I need some sophisticated electronic stuff to load fuel and control the power of the engine. I mean... really? Gasoline or steam engines are controlled by a mechanical valve. And even gas turbines can be controlled mechanically! (well big ones can use some sort of electronic controls, but I don't think it's mandatory)
4) Gas engine is kinda fine, but I feel weird when I'm pointing it at solid wall and it doesn't mind at all. I also think that it looks kinda like a turbofan while it shouldn't, because it is designed not for thrust, but for shaft power.
Here's some things (other than electric engine issues I listed before)
1) Power system is kinda fine, but if you think about it, it looks like engines don't know about the load. Gas engine runs at a certain speed. You load it - it still runs at that speed. Try to do that with your car with manual gearbox. And thus torque works kinda unrealistically - any engine produces the same amount of torque no matter what the load is, but in real life, if you disconnect engine from it's load it will start speeding up - you can also try that while driving a car with a manual gearbox - if you disengage the clutch while maintaining the same throttle, engine will speed up pretty fast. There are some physics (well, the "rotational version" of the Newton's second law actually) explaining this and I'm pretty sure that Reika is aware about all that stuff, but I guess that might be insanely hard to code and use.
2) The bad thing it brings to us is the splitting power via shaft junction. IRL, if you have an engine powering, say, two fans if you disconnect one, the second one will just speed up, but in rotarycraft the junction will just waste power.
3) The fact that I need some sophisticated electronic stuff to load fuel and control the power of the engine. I mean... really? Gasoline or steam engines are controlled by a mechanical valve. And even gas turbines can be controlled mechanically! (well big ones can use some sort of electronic controls, but I don't think it's mandatory)
4) Gas engine is kinda fine, but I feel weird when I'm pointing it at solid wall and it doesn't mind at all. I also think that it looks kinda like a turbofan while it shouldn't, because it is designed not for thrust, but for shaft power.
And this is my point... why is electrolysis the line that can't be crossed in a world with so darn many unbelievable aspects? What makes this particular thing the sticking point rather than any of the other myriad unbelievable things? The exact same mod gives you windmills that *always* run (minecraftia must be a really windy place), while every industrial mod extant has some form of "put liquid magma in magic box, get out pure energy with no matter residue". Again, I am not arguing about the realism or believability of the seperator/generator - they are neither. What I am saying is that this one interaction is singled out by a number of people who have absolutely no issue with other interactions that are just as unbelievable.
The separator/generator wasn't singled out per se, it was just the main subject of the conversation and I didn't feel it was necessary to justify every other power source in the game. The only one I did mention was the photobioreactor from gascraft. I favour the photobioreactor because it uses the power of the sun + the activity of microorganisms to release hydrogen from water which is something I am prepared to imagine happening in this "magic box".
To be honest, asking why I am drawing a line here is a bit like asking me why I believe in God but don't believe in fairies*. It may not make sense to some people but, for a whole host of reasons (that actually don't have to be internally consistent) I choose to believe in one and not the other, or reject one implausible game mechanic while accepting another that is also implausible.
*Breon, I have no idea what your religion is (or if you have one) or would ever ask anyone that question. It is for illustrative purposes only.
I actually toyed with torque-speed curves early on. It was a disaster.
The way RC power is transmitted does not allow this without substantial rewrites and greatly reduced performance.
That valve cuts off the fuel supply. That fuel supply can also be cut off in RC.
Put in a different turbine, and you will get shaft power.
The way RC power is transmitted does not allow this without substantial rewrites and greatly reduced performance.
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I imagine that
I completely understand that it would be very hard to use\
Well, I just think that it should be a feature of the engine itself, at least manual control with a screwdriver. And actually, gasoline engines are controlled by limiting the air, not fuel.
Well, yes, but you won't need the fan
Also, Reika, what did you say about planes? I tried to install Flan's mod and it's a disaster...
nd actually, gasoline engines are controlled by limiting the air, not fuel.
Then why does my car (and just about anyone else's) have a fuel flow valve connected to the accelerator?
I always get a kick out of the realism argument when we travel through portals to other dimensions, fight monsters, carry enough weight to sink a cargo ship, and fly. At least alot of the tech mods are based on real principles. No point in arguing over it. Don't like a mod, don't use it. I don't like magic mods and remove them from ever pack I play. No need to come to the forums to try and convince others why.[DOUBLEPOST=1395441589][/DOUBLEPOST]
I would agree here. 3 things are required for engines to run. Fuel, air, and ignition. Remove any of the 3 and you cut off the engine.
Then why does my car (and just about anyone else's) have a fuel flow valve connected to the accelerator?
Did you check that out? Because I always thought that it's controlled by an air flow valve and wiki agrees with me:
Then why does my car (and just about anyone else's) have a fuel flow valve connected to the accelerator?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throttle
Throttle only controls air to the engine which fuel is matched to. This is strictly to control rpm vs load. It has nothing to do with turning an engine on and off. Engines are actually turned on and off with the ignition system. Most modern fuel systems are a loop and are pressurized without the engine running(run position on an ignition). And there is always air available. They only control the engine WHILE it is running.
Modern engine meter the air going in and match the injector pulse length to regulate air/fuel ratio with the fuel staying at a constant pressure. Older systems had pressure/rpm ratio to control the mixture. But they are still turned on and off electrically. Even the oldest internal combustion engines are controlled electrically. An electric starter spins the motor to start drawing the air which creates a vacum that sucks fuel in. Yes, you could kill the engine by shutting off the fuel or blocking the air intake, but it was not done that way. You simply interrupted the the ignition source. The engine control units in the game are exactly that. An ignition system, or at least that is how I see them. It doesn't matter what terminology you use or if they are cutting off the fuel or ignition. They allow you to turn engines on and off electrically(redstone). Being able to feed the fuel through them to an engine makes for cleaner builds and I only see it as an advantage, not something to argue semantics over.
Celestialphoenix
Too Much Free Time
Its a cultural thing- a similar mechanic was possible with boilers and magma crucibles, as lava used to generate more energy in a max size boiler than the crucible needed to melt cobblestone. A lot of people called it out as an 'exploit' - is there any real difference between that and the electrolysis loop?
As @casilleroatr mentioned the Gascraft system; the raw energy would come from sunlight, so it appears to the player that there isn't some kind of energy loop- though both setups are identical except in name. That only difference means the Gascraft one comes with an in-game explanation as to how it works, and feels more acceptable to the player.
The whole lava/any fuel in, pure energy out system is a matter of taking a 'real world' mechanic and simplifying it into game terms. As we're dealing with combustion, the in game explanation is the gaseous waste/smoke simply dissipates.
As game design goes- would waste 'products' actually be useful, or just another item to void/recycle?
Lava "fuel" is probably a cultural side effect of modders emulating buildcraft and IC2- both of which have used lava fuel for a long time.Most the windmills I've seen (BtW, Redpower and IC2) respond to changing weather conditions, and can be affected by other blocks in the area.
When I said "I want to control them manually" I meant controlling the speed like you do with ECU in RC now. I wasn't talking about starting or stopping the engine.
Also, some kinds of engines don't use electric ignition (diesel, glow engines) they don't use gasoline, though...
On that point, I could see the lower tier fuel engines having a manual throttle in the GUI. I would also make the turbine require them, since I doubt you would ever hand throttle a turbine.
You are are correct on the diesels, but I didn't mention them since we have gone green in RC and only used Ethanol based fuels that are renewable. LOL. Oh wait just hit me....new idea for another RC fuel and engine combo. Bio diesel. Would need a refinery type machine. Engines would be high torque, low RPM like real diesels. Might fit in the huge gap between gas engines and turbines.
In my car at least, the throttle controls the flow of the air/fuel mixture. Seeing as the rest of the engine is not airtight, it is the fuel being cut off.[DOUBLEPOST=1395444539][/DOUBLEPOST]
The BC fuel engine fits this description.On that point, I could see the lower tier fuel engines having a manual throttle in the GUI. I would also make the turbine require them, since I doubt you would ever hand throttle a turbine.
You are are correct on the diesels, but I didn't mention them since we have gone green in RC and only used Ethanol based fuels that are renewable. LOL. Oh wait just hit me....new idea for another RC fuel and engine combo. Bio diesel. Would need a refinery type machine. Engines would be high torque, low RPM like real diesels. Might fit in the huge gap between gas engines and turbines.
I moved over to Horizons after the stable updates recently and there is no BC. Been trying to use RC as my main mod and move up it's tech tree, but so many materials for such little ouput when you start. I'm kinda stuck. Was thinking it might be nice to have something between normal engines and turbines.
Right now, I am working on getting steady enough ethanol to move up to gas engines, but am only making enough to keep my jetpack filled. I have a few steam engines magnetizing shaft cores. They are for 2 ac engines running a grinder for canola so I can get a couple of drums for gearboxes. I can't make enough power to even process ores with a grinder efficiently yet. Not sure I'm on the right path....It would be so much cheaper and simpler to just use TE dynamos and magneostatics for most of what I am doing, but I am trying to avoid that so I can learn RC better. I love the whole concept and the handbook gives great info, but there is still so much I am unsure of...Seems to me minimum power is useless on most machines cus they are SLOW. Might be nice to have a "recommended" power as well.
My biggest issue seems to be scaling. Your lowest engines make so little compared to other mods while costing way more, yet your top tier makes power on a scale that even the logistics of running it are beyond many mods capabilities, let alone transporting/using the power. Really struggling early game.
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RC grows exponentially, unlike other mods which grow linearly. The low-tier engines make plenty for the machines intended to be run by them.
I guess that's one of the biggest issues I am having. Figuring out which engine for which machine. Even though they run on minimum power, it is far from ideal to run them at that speed.
You sure it's Exponential? I mean, when I realized the different between exponential and Geometric in this sense I've been second guessing pretty much every use of exponential I've seen.
And that's why it's great that they tell you how much they need to run at all; you can scale up from there. And if it tells you if it mainly needs Torque, then you can get away with decreasing the RAD/S so long as it stays above it's minimum. Same with the inverse.
I was thinking earlier today about how RotaryCraft isn't the only mod out there using Shaft Power; the mechanical age tier in Resonant Induction is designed around it, but it's a lot simpler to understand there IMO. Plus converting RAD/S to Torque is as easy is using a small gear to turn a large gear, maybe a few times to be sure. Same in the inverse, want a higher RAD/S? Use a large gear to turn a small gear.
Plus, it's got windmills and water mills for it's main sources of shaft power, so it's very much like how it