PSA: MCPC+ and Modded Minecraft

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Sunstrike

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Jul 29, 2019
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…snip…

Simply put;
  • MCPC+ is not a development environment, it has no tooling or related except for working on MCPC+ itself.
  • MCPC+ is simply a compatibility tool between two incompatible systems, namely Bukkit and Forge.
  • The only chance of "sanely" merging these is if Bukkit agrees to play nice; they've been completely unhelpful towards the Forge guys (and that's putting it nicely).
  • MCPC+ is a hacked up implementation of Forge with Bukkit strapped on, it causes unpredictable behaviour.
  • Bukkit plugins aren't designed with mods in mind, and may have hardcoded vanilla behaviour.
  • Forge mods aren't designed with plugins in mind, and may have hardcoded Forge behaviour.
  • We just don't want to deal with this crap on top of our usual workload.
As developers, it is our right to pick our own platform as you should apparently be aware. As modders, we pick Forge. MCPC+ is only a concern for "big" servers, there are many servers who get on fine with plain Forge. If they use it, fine, but they have to worry about problems and see about getting them resolved. We will not retarget an environment we have no tooling for. It'd be like a developer trying to make a Windows program under Wine - Developing in the compat layer and not the actual system. Who does that, really?
 

Subnotic

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Jul 29, 2019
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Thank you for replying with some reasons. I just see people making reasons over actually trying to provide some help, but I could be wrong. All I hear is how much MCPC+ isn't supported by mod authors and have yet to see anyone actually try, publicly. Yes, those reasons are understandable and could be problems but that shouldn't stop an attempted. If I remember correctly, people said running any type of bukkit infrastructure along side Forge was near impossible yet that happened but it took a group to push it to try. All it takes is a few mod authors to push and try to make their mods possibly work with MCPC+. Then again, I have the mind set where I want to do what is the impossible, push the limits. If I have to be the jackass to decompile mods and modify any bugs I find, I will be that person to try and prove that MCPC+ isn't an issue. It's the concept that no mod authors are pushing to TRY. But hey, I am one person to a community, my opinion doesn't matter right? I am the "idiotic 12 year old" that uses your mod so why even attempt to listen to me. That is basically all anyone gets around any forums anymore, makes sense why people don't try to help.

{redacted agressive language}

P.S I am here to be proven wrong, that is my intent, so please prove me wrong so I can change my mind about the Minecraft modding community.
 
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cpw

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There is a lot of history around bukkit and forge. We wanted to integrate bukkit api, and craftbukkit, directly into forge. That never happened, and WILL never happen now. MCPC+ matters, but NOT for modders. Modders have their hands full playing keep up with the constantly evolving treadmill that is vanilla. You will ALWAYS be at the whim of the modder's time and willingness for MCPC. There can be no other way, and anyone who feels they are entitled to more, should go away and leave the real issues to the adults.

Forge is slowly moving towards trying to make anything a plugin can do, doable in forge. We have a way to go, but we're working towards it. Don't expect miracles.

Also, I find it slightly comical and hypocritical that forge+mods get the blame, many times plugins and bukkit are just as guilty. I don't see big rants about mcpc+ over on the bukkit forums- you're lucky if your thread survives five minutes there.

This is a topic that I find very frustrating as I know that the people in MCPC, who welcomed me as a new modder on the scene, are wholly supportive of this stance. The problem seems to be a highly vocal minority who seem to feel they own every other persons voluntary time and effort.
 

Subnotic

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It isn't that I am blaming the mods or Forge, I never said that in the slightest. It isn't about whos fault is who, but if you can fix a problem, why not ya know? All I would like, as I am sure a lot of others would, is a group/community that is working to better their already amazing product. I just don't get why personal vendetta is more important than bettering a community ya know? I guess I just see things different but it isn't just me, I am just a voice. :p
 

cpw

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Jul 29, 2019
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question: what problem? that's the fundamental point. the mod is behaving correctly in forge. how can we fix a problem that doesn't exist? mcpc problems are 90% due to the integration itself, or a plugin that has no idea its running in modland. how is that supposed to be fixed? go look at bc's issue tracker. LOTS of MCPC only bugs, and almost all are fixed in mcpc or are a plugin incompatibility. BC has zero hope of fixing either. only mcpc in cooperation with the plugin authors, are able to fix it. MCPC understands this, you don't. now stfu and go away and let me get back to the 1.7 update..
 

Jadedcat

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Jul 29, 2019
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Apparently people missed the note about polite discussion in the original post.

This thread is not about attacking MCPC+. It is also not about demanding modders change how they mod or what they mod for.

This thread is meant to be a discussion of what server admins feel they need to run a server. Name-calling and insults will not be tolerated.

This isn't about blaming anyone. This is about figuring out what servers need and seeing if there's a way to do that with less technical difficulties.

Mods and plugins both work fine on their own with bugs on each end that have to be tracked down and squashed. The difficulty currently is the number of new bugs and issues that occur when you combine the 2.

Logical well reasoned polite discussions of differing view points is what this thread is about. NOT BLAMING PEOPLE AND NAME CALLLING.

This font color and size are my moderating voice.

Play nice
 

Ashzification

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This font color and size are my moderating voice.

Play nice
Offtopic: is your moderating voice a stern and imposing version of your regular voice?

On topic:
Is there a list anywhere of what mods can achieve the same effect as some of these plugins?
I never actually made one, just mucked about looking around.
I'd love to see a list of functions that are desired, the associated plugin, then a mod that can do near or the same.
 

Jadedcat

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Offtopic: is your moderating voice a stern and imposing version of your regular voice?

On topic:
Is there a list anywhere of what mods can achieve the same effect as some of these plugins?
I never actually made one, just mucked about looking around.
I'd love to see a list of functions that are desired, the associated plugin, then a mod that can do near or the same.

Off topic: ever heard a wolf snarl? thats my moderating voice.

On topic:

Thats why Slow asked me to make this thread. So we can see whats needed vs whats available. It was thought that since I have been a server admin before using pure bukkit, pure forge and mcpc+ (back when things had to be ported , it was a while ago) that I would be the best choice on the team to try and keep the discussion on track. Right now though getting on irc is scary, so many people yelling at me :(

To everyone else, we really do just want to help. We know larger servers are difficult to run without MCPC+. But thats not every server. And not every server admin knows what the difference between mods and plugins is. Some server admins don't even install MCPC+ on their own it comes pre-installed with some default plugins from server hosting companies or they get given a drop down list of plugins they can install. They view the plugins as being the same as mods which they aren't. These admins are putting a pre-formated mod pack onto a server with things it was not tested against just because they think its needed. And on smaller servers its not.

This next part is pure curiosity on my part.

Mods are made for the most part (there are exceptions) to be run on the client and server simultaneously. Plugins only need to be on the server and can control the client through the server. Is this part of the reason for some of the bugs and issues?
 

Bunsan

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Jul 29, 2019
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Might I suggest we just close this topic and start fresh with the question jaded proposed. What is lacking in the forge environment that server admins feel they need. Better yet this conversation should take place on forge forum as this is a forge thing not an FTB thing.

cpw summed up a nice conclusion. Seriously this shit isn't plug'n play don't expect it to be. We are modding a game in 2 distinctly different ways, mashing them together and doing it all in a game with no mod support. So enter at your own risk.

I gave the useful info of the tools I feel I need to run our server. I have just started to learn to code for the first time in 20 years. I'm an over-educated biologist not a programmer. I am bright enough to follow a fair bit and to know my limits. I can't get super technical, I don't know all the hooks and calls available. I don't have the ability to write the mod myself and by the time I do the Mod API will be out (sic). I thought one of the points of this thread was to compile info on what is missing that server admins need. Telling me it is impossible or to write it myself is just being obtuse and obstructive. As for telling someone who can code it? That was what I was trying to bloody do.

This topic is entering fued uselessness territories, so good day.

Off topic Addendum.
My permissions for MFFS comment was in regards to permission to use the mod on our public server. Dirty secret not everyone using these forums uses FTB. We don't as we wanted a 1.6.4 server many months ago and aren't the sort to sit on our hands waiting for others. If you don't use FTB you can't get permission for some mods, no matter what. So since we are honest and want our use to be kosher we are punished, while the dishonest don't bat an eyelash.
 

cpw

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Right now though getting on irc is scary, so many people yelling at me :(
Not me, and I don't think the modders think you've done anything wrong.

To everyone else, we really do just want to help. We know larger servers are difficult to run without MCPC+. But thats not every server. And not every server admin knows what the difference between mods and plugins is. Some server admins don't even install MCPC+ on their own it comes pre-installed with some default plugins from server hosting companies or they get given a drop down list of plugins they can install. They view the plugins as being the same as mods which they aren't. These admins are putting a pre-formated mod pack onto a server with things it was not tested against just because they think its needed. And on smaller servers its not.
This is very true. There's an often false perception, that MCPC+ is a requirement to run a server. This is not true. Forgecrafts have always been straight forge. I think we ran (fine, btw) with over 20 people on at once. While DW was nuking the crap out of people's bases. We often fix performance bugs in straight forge thanks to that. I will acknowledge that some of the massively scaled servers might require MCPC+, but that is not your average family fun server, by any means.
This next part is pure curiosity on my part.

Mods are made for the most part (there are exceptions) to be run on the client and server simultaneously. Plugins only need to be on the server and can control the client through the server. Is this part of the reason for some of the bugs and issues?
Yup, it often is. Plugins assume something that MCPC+ makes "not really true" - that there is a fixed set of "stuff" that can happen. Mods break all of those rules, and create unexpected interactions. These create problems which are just not going to happen in vanilla forge, or vanilla bukkit. It was why we wanted to align forge with Bukkit. However, that didn't happen :(
 

Bunsan

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Jul 29, 2019
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Sorry double post but avoiding wall of text and this was posted while I was writing.
I'd love to see a list of functions that are desired, the associated plugin, then a mod that can do near or the same.

I tried to give one in my post although I massed a few together. I can include the plugin names we use on our server and what they do if you wish. But not in this topic as it will be lost in a sea of drama it seems.
 

Watchful11

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This is very true. There's an often false perception, that MCPC+ is a requirement to run a server. This is not true. Forgecrafts have always been straight forge. I think we ran (fine, btw) with over 20 people on at once. While DW was nuking the crap out of people's bases. We often fix performance bugs in straight forge thanks to that. I will acknowledge that some of the massively scaled servers might require MCPC+, but that is not your average family fun server, by any means.
The performance boost from MCPC+ is a nice feature, but it's not the reason people use it. If you have a public server, you will have people who break stuff, ie, griefing. Having tools to prevent and revert stuff is absolutely necessary.

It is certainly possible to run a family server, or even a small public server, without block logging, but with anything where you get dozens of people each day who you don't trust, it's just impossible.

It's certainly fair to not support MCPC+, simply the fact that we are having this discussion means it has some problems, but I disagree with anyone saying it's not necessary.
 

matpower123

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Jul 29, 2019
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On topic:
Right now though getting on irc is scary, so many people yelling at me :(
Get a cloak, something else than Jadedcat before you join IRC. ;)
Sorry double post but avoiding wall of text and this was posted while I was writing.


I tried to give one in my post although I massed a few together. I can include the plugin names we use on our server and what they do if you wish. But not in this topic as it will be lost in a sea of drama it seems.
Post here, we aren't here to make drama, we are here to get that info and discuss it. :)
 

themadnun

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Jul 29, 2019
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Is there a list anywhere of what mods can achieve the same effect as some of these plugins?
I never actually made one, just mucked about looking around.
I'd love to see a list of functions that are desired, the associated plugin, then a mod that can do near or the same.

Ash, I think you will be hard pressed to find a mod that can handle one of the most required things on a public server, and this is stripping it right down to the bare essentials (ha - essentials pun) - block logging.

So a block logging mod - this needs to be able to log all actions taken on blocks by players, and write them out to a an external SQL database. It then needs to query this database on command, and report back with the actions taken on the block being queried and which player performed said actions. This logging mod then also needs to rollback the actions of the player (either globally or within a certain radius, globally would do for general griefers) to a point before the time frame set by the person sending the commands. This is the most basic functionality. Prism, who work with MCPC+ to provide compatibility and logging for forge-based events in their plugin, have done an amazing job of developing a plugin that handles those basic functions extremely well, and adds layers of icing onto the top of the cake.

At the moment there are a few mod items/blocks that can bypass block logging and griefprevention plugins, but those are just a couple of security holes that are fairly liveable with in comparison to no logging at all. I *think*, but am by no means certain, that these are related to fakeplayers.

Second in line comes the player managed area protection.

The protection mod - I currently use griefprevention, and have in the past used towny, and have tried MyTowns but it never worked for me, probably my fault, who knows. MyTowns might even have all of this covered, but it basically needs to have a system whereby a player can claim a certain amount of land to his/herself and then allow their friends to build on it. This mod also needs to be able to protect all containers and lock them down to the owner or trusted people (one of the main reasons I use griefprevention over Towny now is that it's quite clever at identifying when a modded block is a container, and can lock it down).

This is the absolute bare minimum that I would even think of running a public server with, in my personal order of importance. I run many more, and very stable they are, thanks to the massive effort of blood and onibait.

ETA: My list of plugins currently on the server, in no particular order of importance, though I wouldn't really consider my admin toolkit to be complete without all of these...

ChatManager
Essentials
Griefprevention
Multiverse Core & Portals
PeX
Prism
Votifier
Voxelsniper
Worldedit
Vault
Chestshop
Worldguard
 
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mDiyo

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Jul 29, 2019
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Officially, the Tinkers' Construct team doesn't support MCPC+. There seems to be a lot less hacking going on there, but it's still a different platform than the vanilla Forge we target.

Unofficially, I've been on good terms with blood for awhile. He's helped me track down a couple bugs, I'm sure all of the NBT shenanigans that TConstruct pulls gives him plenty of his own bugs to track down, and MCPC+ gets put in the same boat as OptiFine: Nice to have and quite useful when it works, don't want it when it doesn't. Any enmity I have is aimed at bukkit, not the MCPC+ developers.
 

Subnotic

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As I said before, any mod that can help boost performance, along with supply a simple permission and/or world guard is what would bring people away from MCPC+ to help support a more friendly pure Forge eviroment. Just like ProfMobius has done with Opis and is doing with Evoc, being mainly Forge compatible, would be huge for Forge supported and compatible mods. It isn't like I don't support MCPC+ or want them to crash to the ground but you are looking for a more Forge friendly solution I am sure majority of everyone knows this but bringing it to front might help someone? Seeing as that is what Jaded was asking for, thought it might help. If this isn't possible than my two cents is useless but from my understanding it shouldn't be completely difficult.
 

Bunsan

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Post here, we aren't here to make drama, we are here to get that info and discuss it. :)

Will work on something, but is a lot of info. Will break it up into sections. TheMadNun got a good start. I'll throw up my start even though it repeats some.

@themadnun
About Prism.
You are right and wrong about breaks by some items. They are caused by fake players, but they are recorded. Our server worked with blood on initial integration of this. You can rollback an entire quarry run or turtle or wand of excavation. You can't directly see player responsible, but easy enough indirectly by placement of turtle/quarry or block pickup etc.

Should have put this in When I first posted.

Many plugins have redundant functions. You end up picking and choosing parts of plugins that you want. You can change configs of plugins in-game or in files. Can be reloaded to update configs without disrupting server (currently LWC does need restart, but that is bug). They are frequently stable between MC versions. I don't claim to be expert and am only passing on information to the best of my abilities. Please go to the plugin pages for more information. I'm telling you some of the key plugins we use, forge mods might exist that replicate their function, I'm not denying they exist, we just don't use them.

Important Protection Plugins Part I
- will try and fix formatting when not on my phone.

Logging Plugin (Prism)
- this creates a database (MySQL or SQLlite), which records most actions by players. It records time, coords, player, action, world, unique ID, block/item ID with metadata and NBT data (if applicable)
- Records
- block-place/break
- inventory interaction (look in chest, machine, basically anything with a GUI)
- inventory transactions (what was put in or taken out of a block inventory)
- block use (door, lever, button, pressure plate and more)
- drop/pickup
- commands issued (successful or not)
- chat, fire, lava, water, explosion (w/ source), decay, kill, death and much more.
- in game can query database with parameters.
- can do a basic near search for quick scans
- can use tool (a stick or fist or block) to query specific block.
- can preview and complete a rollback using parameters, reversing griefs etc.

- note only prism is coded to work with (as best it can) forge mods. Others like Hawkeye happen to work with some forge mod blocks, but very poorly. Only prism can log interactions and transactions with forge mod blocks. It is also designed to track block-break or physic events of fake players employed by things like mining turtles or quarries. It's rollback considers NBT so as it says when you rollback "like it never happened". This means a RC boiler will have same heat, fuel, steam and water levels it had at moment of destruction. Doesn't record player breaking block with items like wand of excavation, but does record the block break event/physics event)

Locking Plugin (LWC)
- allows players to lock blocks. It is based on coordinates of blocks, so mods that can move TEs, like redstoneInMotion, PortalGun, can circumvent lock.
- Admins can toggle if locked blocks can be destroyed by mob griefing
- Config allows admins to add IDs to lockable list and configure if they auto lock on placement and default flags (see below)
- a locked block can't be accessed (ie GUI, so no looking in locked chest, open locked door, look in locked IC2 generator etc.) or broken by anyone without permission.
- lock types
- private, only locking player can access
- restricted, locking player can add players to a list that grants access, but not breaking rights
- public, everyone can access, but only owner can break
- can add flags to toggle whether block responds to redstone or interacts with hoppers
-LWC adds other things like auto closing doors and ability of iron doors to open without RS by those with rights.
-LWC give permission nodes so that server staff can bypass all locks, amongst other things.

Ban Aggregator (Fishbans/MCBans)
- Player banned by a server has ban recorded in ban aggregators DB, we use MCBans.
- Reports bans, if present, of player when they log onto server. Plugins like Fishbans don't record bans, but query main aggregators DB for bans on login.
- In game commands to search for bans and access details of ban.

Item Restriction (ItemRestrict)
- Based on item ID:metadata you can restrict ability to own (pickup or have in inventory) item/blocks or use (place or access block/TE).
- Does not block use of item/tools. Wish it did.
- Bypasses can be granted by permission plugin.

Part II

Essentials
- does a ton, best to look at http://dev.bukkit.org/bukkit-plugins/essentials/
- briefly, chat, teleporting, warps, /spawn, /home, economy (currency, shops), item spawning, player kits, staff commands (ban, temp ban, kick, mute), world protections (spawn, PvP flags, firespread), permissions and more. Some functions are through essential addons.

Permission plugin (zpermissions, PEX)
- Customizes what a player can do based on groups using permission nodes from other plugins. Eg can control what essential commands players can use.
- Groups can be organized in ladders, multiple ladders can exist, permissions within different ladders can be weighted so that best always win (not true with all, feature of zpermissions).
- Permissions can be based on dimension. Eg only granted use bypass for quarry in mining world to prevent placement in overworld.
- Permissions are inherited from previous group in ladder.
- Used with plugin like AntiGuest can easily greylist server. Players can't do anything in world (even die) until promoted from guest. ModifyWorld also has similar function.

Residence Plugin (Residence)
- Best known is probably Towny, we use Residence.
- Basically gives tools for players, for a price, can set up a town, delineate roles of members, rights of members within residence borders, toggle server delineated flags (firespread, mob spawning, PvP and more), protect against non-members and more.
- Subregions can be created. So plots sold/rented.
- Uses WorldGuard plugin for a lot of its functions, providing a friendlier interface and extends functionality.
- Large complex plugin.

Player Inventory Snooper (OpenInv)
- Can look in and edit any online players inventories.
- Can query all online player inventories by block ID, reports who w
Has and how many.
- Allows opening of physically blocked chest.
- Allows silent (no sound or animation) opening of chests.

Vanish Plugin (VanishNoPacket)
- Staff Tool, great for observing problem players, investigating issues, acting as a game master for RP content and so much more.
- Allows player to be invisible (armor, items in hand everything) and silent.
- Various things can be toggled when vanished.
* item pickup
* silent chests (can only look no editing)
* item interaction (block-break/place)
* mob interaction, so if mobs can see and target you. Villagers and boss mobs seem to ignore.
- Can give permission to see vanished players
- Can issue fake join and quit messages when vanishing.
- Can set players to join vanished (very helpful for admins)
- For fun can toggle effects when vanishing (smoke, lightning, explosion and bats)

AutoSaveWorld
- World Backup

Plugins I consider Important

Help Tickets (HelpTicket)
- Let's players submit tickets at site of issue with a message.
- Staff can read issues, teleport to site of issue, comment, assign priorities, assign to a player or group for resolution etc.
- invaluable for providing prompt help, organizing jobs and ensuring issues don't get lost and forgotten.

Death Inventory Saving Plugin (cenotaph/deathchest)
- Different levels of perk
* on death places as many items as possible in a chest if one is present in inventory (armor last)
* can place double chest
* can spawn chest, no need for one in inventory
* puts player name and death time and date on sign over chest (can set if player needs sign in inventory or if one will be spawned in)
- Can link into LWC etc to determine if chest autolocks
- Can set time until chest despawns or unlocks.
- Some allow you to set delineate a placed chest as deathchest for items to go in.
- Some use grave markers instead of chest
- Can set if items go automatically into inventory, drop on ground or manually removed from chest
- Can control what dimensions it will work in.
- They only use Vanilla chests.
- This plugin is nice perk and saves a lot of drama of stolen items that needs to be sorted out by staff.

Chat Plugin (Herochat) Tabbychat
- Gives multiple chat channels that can be named and coloured.
- With permissions can control who can see/post each chat channel.
- Works nicely with Tabbychat (forge mod)

Announcer (announcer)
- Puts announcements in chat. That is it, but so valuable for communication and reminders.

Titles Plugin (dsTitle, SGTitles)
- Allows players to have titles, coloured names or different fonts
- Delineate Staff, Donors, show rank, honorary titles.
 
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OniBait

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My main hope is that mod devs don't shut the MCPC+ devs out when we talk w/ them -- if we come to a dev with something, it is typically because we were able to reproduce the issue in Vanilla Forge (and often we have looked at your code and identified exactly where the problem was).
There have been a few occasions where we might ask for a fix specifically due to something in MCPC+, but it is usually in the devs best interest anyway (NBT oddness in iChun's Morph or GSON stuff in EE3).
On the flip side though, there have also been several occasions where we were able to reproduce the issue in Vanilla Forge and Blood or I have still tracking the issue down and talked with the mod devs about it just because we like the mods and want them fixed.

It is something that I believe to have made a pretty big difference and we have continued to build relations with a lot of the mod devs out there (and hope to continue building those relationships). Blood and I have a pretty deep understanding of Forge and Bukkit code (just out of necessity) and have debugged a LOT of mods so I'd hope that people see that as a valuable resource. I like to think that we have been building some credibility on that front, and people bitching about some dev not supporting MCPC+ hinders those efforts.

As I said before, any mod that can help boost performance, along with supply a simple permission and/or world guard is what would bring people away from MCPC+ to help support a more friendly pure Forge eviroment.

I had contemplated and floated the idea of creating a fork of Forge just specifically to add some of the CB/Spigot optimizations and leave the plugin hooks out of it -- if they were mainlined into Forge proper, then it'd be one less step that we'd have to take on the MCPC+ side (since then we'd just need to add in the hooks for plugins) -- problem is that there are quite a lot of them, and if they are misconfigured, they can break things (I'd say 70% of the incompatibility issues we see is due to optimizations -- biggest example would be chunk loading) -- All in all though, there just wasn't enough people interested and there aren't enough hours in the day for me to do more than what I am doing now without a lot of people interested in it. I have my regular job to do and trying to help maintain MCPC+ in my spare time is hard enough.

It is actually kinda funny because I'd be watching some of the Mindcrack FTB videos when they were having their lag problems and I was just sitting there thinking "how the hell can I get in touch with these guys without them blowing me off because their issue is X" or "dammit, if they were running this on MCPC+ they wouldn't even have had this problem because it was optimized out".

All it takes is a few mod authors to push and try to make their mods possibly work with MCPC+.

The point is that Mod Devs shouldn't have to explicitly support MCPC+ -- it should work in MCPC+ if it works in Forge. (with certain caveats due to coremods)

That being said -- it can be a little bit frustrating when a mod dev sees MCPC+ in the issue list and immediately disregards it, but I can totally understand why they do so. Even though it is totally distracting to the MCPC+ team, it makes a LOT more sense to filter it through us just because we're either (a) already aware of it or (b) are better qualified to diagnose the issue.
 

Bunsan

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If you can't see it in posts trust me the MCPC+ people are very friendly and helpful. We were gobsmacked when no one else was willing to test initial builds of prism for MCPC+ as it implemented all the things forge Mod MC server admins were begging for and more. So I encourage MCPC+ server admins to poke their IRC and lend a hand when you can for testing.
 
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