PSA: MCPC+ and Modded Minecraft

[Cozza]

MCPC+ can't do what the person was asking either way - It'd need a rewrite of the basic inventory/sided handling which, frankly, Forge won't do because of the amount of work and amount of anger it would cause amongst modders

MCPC+ allows server owners to do everything that Bunsan mentioned.

- We'd be doing it just for server admins, it doesn't add anything for what we do. I don't see pipe restriction happening except if mods themselves enforce it (e.g. Thermal Expansion's sidedness).

That is the issue and that it why we are using MCPC+. A large majority of us are not modders and modders are refusing to write admin tools for server admins, leaving owners in the dark on a platform that cannot be effectively managed. So guess where we are all turning? To bukkit plugins!

 

[dariusc93]

This simply can't be done in Forge -- Mod blocks work in a way that is worlds apart from vanillas primitive item movement, and enforcing pipe restrictions is trouble waiting to happen.

As for death chests-like things, already done - Gravestones or Openblocks.

Its possible. Take a look at Fihgu mod it was able to lock single blocks as well as an selected area. LWC also has an Forge version that i dont believe is supported or stable yet.

 

[Bunsan]

Well nearly everything I mentioned. Some small bits they don't do, but we wished they did.

And with all due respect saying mod x does y when mod x adds a lot of gameplay items is a ham fisted solution in most cases. What if server doesn't want that mod? Or can't get permission to use it on public server (eg MFFS)?

A proper solution is a standalone mod that depends on commands not blocks and items.

Edit: typos and grammar.

 

[Jammie]

Maybe someone should make a MCPC+ thread so we can all post out bugs/issues. It might be a good place to direct the MCPC+ team.

 

[AforAnonymous]

On the topic of MCPC+ & Forge mods - MCPC+ can also actually be useful for finding bugs in Forge mods because it has warnings for potentially strange mod behaviour that the vanilla server doesn't even notice. Example:

https://github.com/MinecraftPortCentral/MCPC-Plus-Legacy/issues/1343

It's not yet clear if this is MCPC+ fault or not, but to me it seems like it probably isn't.

 

[Bunsan]

Maybe someone should make a MCPC+ thread so we can all post out bugs/issues. It might be a good place to direct the MCPC+ team.

There is a great place to do this. The mcportcentral forum http://www.mcportcentral.co.za and the github https://github.com/MinecraftPortCentral/MCPC-Plus

My suggestion of a topic wasn't for there to be a place for MCPC+ to come, but for a place for people to discuss bugs so that admins who know what they are doing can submit proper bug reports to the github and help them fix it. I only suggest this because much of the community mistakingly believes FTB is in charge of everything instead of being one of many modpack makers/launcher.

It is becoming worse than the peak of technic when players thought technic was a mod that did everything. Now it is FTB that is everything from forge to the mods. They are a launcher and modpack makers. Full stop.

 

[Jadedcat]

It is becoming worse than the peak of technic when players thought technic was a mod that did everything. Now it is FTB that is everything from forge to the mods. They are a launcher and modpack makers. Full stop.

Exactly.

As to the MCPC+ thread, if the devs want want here as opposed to just the links in the first post that can be done. But I believe they would prefer people use the links to their site where people can search for if something is/can be fixed.

 

[OniBait]

For MCPC+ issues, by far the best play to go is the github issue list -- it is basically what we work off of. (Or the subreddit, or best of all on IRC)

As far a thread on these forums, I would prefer to not have a thread on the FTB forums for MCPC+ issues just because it is yet another place I would have to monitor for issues.

If there was a thread for server admins to talk FTB/MCPC+ specific stuff though, that could be useful of course. Just don't expect us to be actively monitoring it for issues or anything.

 

[Bunsan]

I was definitely thinking you would not moderate it in any way. In fact I would actively encourage you to pretend that it doesn't exist. There seem to be members here who know what they are doing that could help out and act as a bit of a filter. Issues then could be submitted to GitHub by people who know how.

The IRC is a great way to talk to you guys, but for the less experienced it can be intimidating. I myself just tend to listen in there and let my partner do the talking as he has more tech/coding experience then I do.

I just feel more open discussion about MCPC+ is valuable. I don't think mods will ever replace plugins and that there is a need for MCPC+. A simple metaphor is that mods give you the tools to build, fuel, maintain and fly a crazy jet plane. Plugins are air traffic control. Sure in a quiet place with only a small number you don't need air traffic control, but busy places do. They are very different things and need different tools. They just need to play nice, work together and everyone can be happy.

 

[Xaviorm]

Sorry I am a quite a bit late to this thread but I would ask Jaded and the whole FTB team to rethink this whole it's not a mod issue if it's on MCPC+.

There are two reasons I am using MCPC+ and a third that is nice.
1) Admin commands and player commands and permissions to manage them. Everyone who joins a server expects to be able to do /set home /home and /spawn. You cannot do this with vanilla or forge. It is also vital that I am able to limit not just commands but what blocks can be used by which players. The NEI solution just plain does not scale and just disabling lava buckets is not a solution.

2) MCPC+ runs about 30% lighter than vanilla forge. (this comes from my own testing with my servers mod pack.) Some is the code and a lot is things like spawn limits being settable and blocks grouping instantly. Who doesn't need more performance?

3) Bukkit plugins to do things like messaging and titles and such. These are just plain expected on any server out there and there is no good way to do this with vanilla forge.

Unless forge is going to provide this same server functionality that is that standard that pretty much all minecraft server players expect then all we have is MCPC+. I tried ever so hard to use Forge Essentials but it was no where near documented or stable or performant to be worth my time. Never mind that every upgrade of it completely broke every thing.

I don't like dealing with the screwball behavior of the mods on MCPC+ but you guys are not really giving anyone a better options. While your list of work arounds might be good enough for you but as a server admin it's kind of insulting. We need real server tools not cheesy hacks.

MCPC+ is the server platform all mod devs should be coding to or at least releasing ports for. It is what is currently the standard. You should be coding to the standard. If you don't like that standard then give us a better option. I would happy switch to something that was more stable and a completely forge compatible server tool set.

EDIT: SPellings, Also FYI Jaded, Forge Essentials is dead. You can't download it from that link and last I saw they were pointing for people to use MCPC+

 

[Hanse00]

Bear with the stupid questions please while I try to get to the bottom of what you are saying is needed?

If you can log blocks then you know what players have been doing. Why log inventory as well? For dupe detection?

Inventory logging is not meant as logging of the player's inventory, but logging of inventories such as chests, AE systems, machines etc.

It, combined with block logging, is useful for finding out who's been doing something bad of homes are wrecked, or things have been stolen.
The latter can somewhat be remedied by using some sort of inventory that can be player locked, but it's not always an option.

You'd likely want to be able to check who's been taking all the diamonds out of your AE system if you find that they're all missing, at least as an admin.

 

[Sunstrike]

3) Bukkit plugins to do things like messaging and titles and such. These are just plain expected on any server out there and there is no good way to do this with vanilla forge.

[…snip…]

I don't like dealing with the screwball behavior of the mods on MCPC+ but you guys are not really giving anyone a better options. While your list of work arounds might be good enough for you but as a server admin it's kind of insulting. We need real server tools not cheesy hacks.

MCPC+ is the server platform all mod devs should be coding to or at least releasing ports for. It is what is currently the standard. You should be coding to the standard. If you don't like that standard then give us a better option. […snip…]

Please leave your entitlement at the door here; you may think your server admin duties come first but in reality big servers aren't the original target platform. I also doubt even the MCPC+ guys would call themselves "the standard" - They're not. The standards (plural) are Bukkit and Forge. We as modders target Forge. Bukkit plugin authors target Bukkit. So please don't assume you know better than those of us who actually work with this crap daily.

As for the "real server tools", either implement it yourself, get someone else to implement it on your behalf or put up with the consequences of using an unsupported platform. We will not retarget our development practices for the sake of "we think this is standard" when it's not.

Edit: I should also note this is my opinion, not representative of the team I work with.

 

[Julian Zhou]

Hrm... The one MAJOR MAJOR thing I have been looking for a replacement to worldedit. I have yet to find one that is even close to the power of bukkits within the mods in moddedminecraft.

The other thing - in regards to warded blocks, I recommend looking at http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic...a-even-more-warded-blocks-thaumcraft-4-addon/ - It adds warded blocks for the time being.

 

[Xaviorm]

And I thought this was supposed to be civil. /sigh. There is no "sense of entitlement going on". Fact is people are using MCPC+ because there isn't a better alternative. Putting a line in the sand that states "We don't support this" isn't going to make FTB more popular or stop the bug reports. It just spreads ill will, nothing more.

I don't want to get into the mama drama is forge vs bukkit. Or any of that. I am simply stating that MC/Forge needs admin tools and if forge isn't going to provide them, then we as admins will find solutions and you can expect those solutions to make more work for everyone involved. Seems counter productive.

 

[matpower123]

Sorry I am a quite a bit late to this thread but I would ask Jaded and the whole FTB team to rethink this whole it's not a mod issue if it's on MCPC+.

There are two reasons I am using MCPC+ and a third that is nice.
1) Admin commands and player commands and permissions to manage them. Everyone who joins a server expects to be able to do /set home /home and /spawn. You cannot do this with vanilla or forge. It is also vital that I am able to limit not just commands but what blocks can be used by which players. The NEI solution just plain does not scale and just disabling lava buckets is not a solution.
That is pretty meh, for fork's sake, mods can replace your precious /set home or /home.
*Cough* Mekanism Teleporter or Rod of Return *Cough* (Balanced too!, no free teleport for you!)

2) MCPC+ runs about 30% lighter than vanilla forge. (this comes from my own testing with my servers mod pack.) Some is the code and a lot is things like spawn limits being settable and blocks grouping instantly. Who doesn't need more performance?
I would like some proof besides your own testing, and I don't think it is worth if you know how MCPC+ screws with mods.

3) Bukkit plugins to do things like messaging and titles and such. These are just plain expected on any server out there and there is no good way to do this with vanilla forge.
As a server admin, I never understand why people needs fancy titles to show they payed X amount or if they are playing for 3 weeks. >.>
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I don't like dealing with the screwball behavior of the mods on MCPC+ but you guys are not really giving anyone a better options. While your list of work arounds might be good enough for you but as a server admin it's kind of insulting. We need real server tools not cheesy hacks.

MCPC+ is the server platform all mod devs should be coding to or at least releasing ports for. It is what is currently the standard. You should be coding to the standard. If you don't like that standard then give us a better option.

Now for the last part, the standard won't be MCPC+ and never will, standardS are Bukkit and Forge. One was made for better vanilla servers and the other was made for better mod compatibility. Modders/Bukkiters(? ) works in a different thing how was made with another idea at mind, no one is obliged to work with the another and they won't, they won't change how they work because some guys said "I think this is standard" when it's not.

If you want "real server tools", you will need to make it.
(As a server admin, I don't see need for them. Servers were made for making a small community, where you should trust in others IMO.)

 

[Sunstrike]

I'm trying to be civil here. But there is entitlement here. Telling us to retarget for a platform at your whims alone is rude, I am fighting back against that, and let me reiterate that it won't happen unless Forge as a whole made that shift (which will also never happen now due to various factors) - Let us do what we do best, don't tell us how to do our job. We provide what we do as a free service, ordering us about will just cause developer burn out, which leads to abandoned mods and a less vibrant community overall.

Please consider this before turning around and saying "support this, target platform X, we need this and this…"

 

[Julian Zhou]

Oh also - I might add another thing. When I ran MCPC+ alone - I rarely had issues. The majority of the issues came when I started adding various plugins. The issue with this is, a mod author would have to jump through hoops. With Forge the issue is "Which mod is causing it? or Is it a Forge bug?". MCPC+ adds "Is it a MCPC+ bug?" and "Which plugin is causing it? or is it a MCPC+ bug it self?" And determining the latter is very difficult because it, the method used by many (removing mods one by one unti lthe issue dissappears) doesn't exactly work well with plugins.

One more thing - In regards to permissions - MFFSv3 by calclavia adds a nice module in to the interdiction matrix called "BLOCK ACCESS" as in you can block unauthorized people from doing anything within the range of the block access module. If you so feel permissions is nessecary, try that out. (Give each player a kit with the MFFS module).

 

[Greevir]

Drama? Really? Seriously. Get a hold of yourselves and cut the crap.

With the amount of BS a simple suggestion thread has brought, I would definitely suggest not putting in a MCPC+ thread... If a player comes to FTB Tech support with MCPC+ in his log, inform him/her to remove MCPC+ first and see if the error repeats itself. If the user doesn't wish to do that, then inform them FTB can't help with the issue and send them to MCPC+. I don't see FTB offering Tech Support for ATLauncher or Technic, why offer support for MCPC+, especially when they have their own people to do their thing. I just think having a MCPC+ "area" on the FTB forums will just give people the impression that FTB can provide support for it and put even more stress on the folks who are here to do Tech Support for FTB.

 

[Subnotic]

If you don't want to take critism from your user base, then why ask for it? Standards change, yes Forge is an API to provide the modders something to give compatitbility which is amazing. I am not saying Forge isn't a majority use product but MCPC+ provides servers using a modpack above 15 people to run without many resource problems, to be general. Why can't mod authors go with a GROWING standard and build off MCPC+? If you can give me a REASONABLE explanation as to why MCPC+ is such a problem to build against I would be glad to hear. As of right now I have yet to see why Forge and MCPC+ are too big of a difference to build against. Yes, I understand I could develop my own mods but you want our feedback and that is what we are giving. If I need to post this somewhere else, I will gladly do so because I want this to be better, I want to see the modding community grow more and more, not stay neutral.

So please, instead of driving your small percentage of useful users that have an understanding and want to help away, give me some decent understanding as to why Forge and MCPC+ is such a horrible thing to make 2 builds against. Of course, other than it is an hour or two extra of time to do so. Also, before trying to throw that I have no idea what I am talking about, I have developed against two seperate games along with game reverse engineering.

 

[Julian Zhou]

If you don't want to take critism from your user base, then why ask for it? Standards change, yes Forge is an API to provide the modders something to give compatitbility which is amazing. I am not saying Forge isn't a majority use product but MCPC+ provides servers using a modpack above 15 people to run without many resource problems, to be general. Why can't mod authors go with a GROWING standard and build off MCPC+? If you can give me a REASONABLE explanation as to why MCPC+ is such a problem to build against I would be glad to hear. As of right now I have yet to see why Forge and MCPC+ are too big of a difference to build against. Yes, I understand I could develop my own mods but you want our feedback and that is what we are giving. If I need to post this somewhere else, I will gladly do so because I want this to be better, I want to see the modding community grow more and more, not stay neutral.

So please, instead of driving your small percentage of useful users that have an understanding and want to help away, give me some decent understanding as to why Forge and MCPC+ is such a horrible thing to make 2 builds against. Of course, other than it is an hour or two extra of time to do so. Also, before trying to throw that I have no idea what I am talking about, I have developed against two seperate games along with game reverse engineering.

Simple. Because forge mods aren't the only ones with issues with MCPC+. Some bukkit plugins have issues too. Want to know the reason Forge and MCPC+ are so hard to make builds against? The answer is simple - time. Mod authors only have so much time. Some barely have time to develop for forge let alone jump through the MCPC+ hoops. Not to mention - Most people would much rather be implementing and playing with new features and toys rather than jumping through hoops to fix issues.