PSA: MCPC+ and Modded Minecraft

Discussion in 'Server Admin Area' started by Jadedcat, Dec 29, 2013.

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  1. Jadedcat

    Jadedcat Gamepack Creator Retired Staff

    Many of our users find it unfair that we ignore bug reports from servers running MCPC+. While we understand why it is used by large servers many players and even server admins are not aware of what it does.

    MCPC+ provides a way for Forge and Bukkit to interact in a server environment. This is not a seamless process. MCPC+ alters Forge code in ways that sometimes aren't compatible with the the code that most modders write mods for. Most mods are not coded to work with this code. Why? Because most mods are coding against unmodified Forge code. To make Forge and Bukkit work together Forge code has to be modified. However in changing the Forge code they are changing the code mods are built on.

    MCPC+ and Bukkit change the code that the mods use to interact with minecraft. Basically in playing with MCPC+ or Bukkit you are not playing modded minecraft. You are playing a a modified version of modded minecraft.

    You have mods that are interacting with the modified code from Forge in specific ways. Then you have MCPC+ which modifys the already Forge modified code to facilitate communicating with Bukkit. There is nothing wrong with this. But most mods are coded to work with the default Forge code not the modified Bukkit/MCPC+ code. This can cause bugs that are not the fault of the mod that appears to be causing the issue.

    Several different things are changed in MCPC/Bukkit code. These things can cause blocks/items to not behave as intended, some multiblocks don't work, crashes occur, GUI's fail to render correctly, and in some cases corruption of chunks or even worlds.

    It is possible to run stable modded servers with MCPC+ . However there are many issues that can only be reproduced on a MCPC+ Server. We cannot fix these bugs.

    If you are using MCPC+ on your server try duplicating the bug/crash without it. If you can't please report it over here the cauldron.minecraftforge.net website and in the #mcportcentral irc channel on irc.esper.net. We cannot offer tech support for this.

    For many servers mods alone can work just fine without MCPC+

    - There are economy mods. Ones where players can trade blocks and items between themselves. Forestry even adds a mail order catalogue where players can trade from a distance.
    - There are mods that can remove recipes and blocks from the game
    - NEI.server adds the ability to make any block or item only placeable/usable by specific people or by all OPs or by no one
    - NEI.server lets you give specific people access to magnet mode, weather and time controls and creative mode
    - TE Strongboxes can be used to create kits for your users
    - MCEdit can be used to restore broken chunks
    - Mystcraft has a PVP symbol so you can turn one dimension into an arena
    - On 1.5 servers Warded blocks from Thaumcraft and Warded door/pressure plates function as a good safe guarding tool as they can only be broken/moved by the player who made them.
    - IC2 safes and TE strongboxes allow safe private storage.
    - Many mods allow you to disable the most destructive parts of their mods directly in their configs specifically for protecting servers

    There is no current mod version of Towns, Votifier or Permissions.

    So if you are using MCPC+ do not be surprised if you have crashes/corruption and mods acting weirdly on your server. If you are on a smaller server with people you can trust look into some of the other options. If you are interested in using mods instead of plugins let us know what you need. In specifics. Not "I need a permissions mod". Say you need a way to prevent people from using a specific block in a specific manner.

    While we understand why you use it please understand we can't provide tech support for something that is changing the code that much. Neither can most mod authors. Their mods are not written to be run in the modified modified environment.




    This thread will remain open for polite discussion.

    If we can we will try and come up with solutions for your concerns with not using Bukkkit/MCPC+. Please understand this is not us saying Bukkit or MCPC+ are inherently bad. Just that we cannot provide tech support for it at this time. We can provide tech support for server owners using mods that duplicate Bukkit functionality.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2014
  2. Muggz

    Muggz New Member

  3. t3hero

    t3hero New Member

    Last edited: Dec 29, 2013
    Watchful11 likes this.
  4. Pavilion5097

    Pavilion5097 Member

    I love strong boxes but i havent had a chance to do major testing in terms of breaking them but can someone else go up to someone's strong box and just mine it with a pickaxe? I know it cant be blown up with tnt and such but is there a way to make strong boxes indestructible and the only way to pick them up is with a crescent hammer?
     
  5. Disconsented

    Disconsented Active Member

    Damn I must be lucky, been running a MCPC+ server for 8 months without a single issue :)
     
  6. Hanse00

    Hanse00 New Member

    This is exactly what I'd like.

    As a player I know how annoying it is when some feature is locked off because of potential greifing, when I'm trying to use it for something completely legit and possibly awesome.
    I want all features open to the players of my server, give them the benefit of the doubt.

    Some people get tempted though, and I need a way to deal with those people, so what I need is to be able to figure out who did something they weren't meant to, and get rid of them.

    Btw, thanks a lot for reaching out and trying to help us all jaded, that's awesome of you!
     
  7. Jadedcat

    Jadedcat Gamepack Creator Retired Staff

    If they are set to private pretty sure thats exactly how they work. I will run test to make sure.
     
  8. lyme

    lyme New Member

    Thank you Jadedcat for the continued support for FTB modpacks, enabling people to quickly and easily to grab a pack and add content and enjoyment to vanilla Minecraft.

    There are a few minor things in your post that I would kindly ask you to address however:
    #1 - You wrote "Because minecraft is not coded to work in this environment if it was they wouldn't need to change the code.", given that the wonderful coders who write and maintain Forge not only extend but change and enhance vanilla Minecraft code, exactly how are Bukkit and MCPC+ any different?
    #2 - Apple pie. Crab Apples are part of the family of fruit called Apples, so are Granny Smith, Red Delicious, Fuji, and Gala. When you make an Apple pie using a different kind of Apple, it always tastes different, and will even do so depending on the type of brown sugar and the amount of cinnamon that you add. Yet, they are still all Apple pies. Referring back to point #1, and that you are assisting in changing code, how do you differentiate the significant changes that FTB puts forth vs slightly different ones?
    #3 - You wrote "Basically in playing with MCPC+ or Bukkit you are not playing minecraft.", after adding a amazing modpack by the FTB team, many of which change the base dynamic of the game and add creatures, blocks, machines, etc, how is playing with FTB playing minecraft?
    #4 - Given that the creators of Minecraft support the modding community through the use of their website and forums, wouldn't it be much more constructive to acknowledge that 'yes' people are going to do this, and to assist them by providing guidance and direction on how to determine where an issue resides and then direct them to an appropriate place to have it resolved? Wouldn't it be fair to say that your PSA is somewhat unhelpful, not to mention contains a number of subtle inaccuracies.

    For those of you who decide of their own free will to run MCPC+, support can be found through the www.mcportcentral.co.ca website and in the #mcportcentral irc channel on irc.esper.net

    Note: I do communications, client relations professionally, as well as 25 years in software development, and it deeply hurts me to see posts like this that twist the truth and lash out instead of trying to produce positive and constructive results.

    Testing can only prove the existence of bugs, and not the non-existence of them.

    Lyme

    *edit* my auto correct changed mod pack to mud pack.. and that was not intentional.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2013
  9. wolfenstein19

    wolfenstein19 Well-Known Member

    My List here:

    1. Blocklog/Rollback
    2. Protection Plugin (Mytown looked promising)
    3. Working Permissions Plugin
    4. Votifier
    5. Some chat formating that works (e.g Display titles in chat)
     
  10. Hanse00

    Hanse00 New Member

    The way I see it, it was a simplification to make the problem more understandable to the non-software developer, which she did quite alright.

    You're entirely correct that Bukkit and Forge are, in some sense, not quite that different. They both edit the base code of minecraft, and that's exactly why they're incompatible.
    Most mods (all "normal" mods) build on Forge, they take the output of forge's changes to minecraft, and build on that as a platform.
    Bukkit does the exact same thing, edits the minecraft code, and plugins build on that edited code to work.

    The problem comes in when you try to use both, bukkit tries to take the vanilla code and change it into one thing, and forge tries to change it in to something else.

    Although this is way oversimplified too, imagine minecraft is a red ball with a diameter of 30 cm. Bukkit tells the ball to be blue instead, forge tells it to change it's diameter to 50 cm.
    The result isn't exactly what either would expect, but it's alright, as long as forge mods only do anything relevant to the size, and bukkit plugins only change the color.

    However, when a forge mod tries to do anything relevant to the color, shit goes wrong. The ball isn't the color you'd expect, it's not red, bukkit somehow made it teal, and that's when the real issues start.

    MCPC+ tries to remedy that, by trying to force the two to play nice, but it's just not successful in it's job. Bukkit and forge can somewhat work together, which they can't without it, but in the end the problem is still there.
     
  11. Bigdog

    Bigdog Member

    Jaded there is no warded blocks in Thaumcraft only thing that's is left is door's and the plate no more warded blocks its why I kind of hate the update, but I still like the changes so its still super without them just would like warded stone back. :( I had a friend who has been messing around with forge make me creative mode only blocks so only I as a server admin can brake it I would like players to have there own personal ones though, but he don't know that much yet to be able to make it player specific.

    Players have 0 protection unless they want there walls to be made out of doors then then I think they can just brake the blocks under the door and you still get though have not tested that but it most likely work because that's how doors work. I know I don't want to make my house out of doors or TE3 chests yes you can make a protected house out of TE3 chests. :p

    Basically just need some form of player owned blocks would help allot for PVP servers I have 2 servers one PVP and other is normal no PVP they not live to the public just yet though they will after I get everything in order as the PVP server is my private pack I working on for my self and the server so its taking a wile to get it finished though its technically finish now there has been updates though the biggest one is Qcraft update I really want to be able to set both my servers up into a portal now hehe.

    I did not know mystcraft had a PVP page though I going to have to check that bad boy out as well hehe as that might help when I do go live and have compositions as I was going to only do it for the PVP server. I will still have a PVP server as the pack is what mods I want and mods that I do not like to play with gone which is IC2 and buildcraft I a hardcore player no easy mode for me there is no gregtec though gregtec is ok, but its more of a pain then anything I like to build and with gregtec that can't happen as it takes a 2-4 weeks to even get set up to even have extra resources to spend to build something nice.
     
  12. Francis Baster

    Francis Baster Active Member

    I was not aware that so many problems could be caused by MCPC+ under the hood. Over a 12 month period I have yet to see a problem caused by MCPC+ on my server that resolved itself upon reverting back to plain Forge, so it will continue to feature on my server until it gives me enough grief that I would consider giving up the wide range of advantages that it brings.

    But how is everyone else's experience with MCPC+?

    I guess you could point out that some plugins (Multiverse!) screw everything up, but MCPC+ in general has always been well behaved for me.
     
  13. lyme

    lyme New Member

    I do agree it was a reasonable attempt at explaining the issue in a non-technical way, however I draw exception to the analogies and metaphors used as they are from a technical point of view, quite incorrect. Founding the justification for a position using inaccuracies, simply because you are simplifying it, only goes to muddy the issue. For example, Jadedfox wrote "If they wrote their mods to work for MCPC+ they wouldn't work for SSP or regular minecraft." which is completely untrue. There are quite a few mods that are written for MCPC+ that work fine in both environments. Simply because it supports both mods and plugins, does not let any author write a single blob of code for MCPC+ that lets you do both, they are kept separate but work together on the same world.

    The first sentence is your opinion, and I acknowledge that position, I disagree but acknowledge all the same. The second sentence is very much like telling someone "don't do that" but not offering a solution as to resolve the underlying problems they are trying to resolve.
     
    Watchful11 likes this.
  14. stardustrider

    stardustrider Active Member

    In my personal opinion, MCPC+ is far superior to a vanilla Forge server. The Bukkit/Spigot optimisations with additional work on top makes it far leaner on hardware. There are just too many useful and essential Bukkit plugins that cannot be lived without.

    If the MCPC+ guys were slow at fixing issues, I'd be singing a different tune, but they're pretty damn rapid.

    I've been using MCPC+ since its inception (good ol' ForgeBukkit!) and I see my self using it for a long time to come, unless devs start to actively deny the use of their mods with it.
     
    Watchful11 likes this.
  15. Jirajha

    Jirajha New Member

    TE3 Strongboxes.. Shift+Rightclick with a Vajra(if GraviSuits is added) to silktouch them. They will drop anything they have on the ground. Or if DartCraft is installed: You can pick them up with a ForceWrench at the moment. So not that safe from Griefing.
    Warded Doors.. will break after 255 Seconds punching it.
    Warded Stone.. not implemented in 1.6 so far is it?
    MFFS is much more safe. A Infinite Crad will provide all the power you need for it and your members are safe from grief. You can FoceWrench the MFFS field it self but oh well..
    TE3 Crative Tanks: If the storage is full they are trying to eject to (e.g. in a tank) they are quite heavy on tps. 150 microseconds per creative tank on our server.Considering 20 members.. already 3ms just thatfor. Would be better to use a Ender Tank and fill it up with several Enderthermic Pumps in the nether at +125k +125k. To get to there: travelling 125k blocks in the nether / 1mil blocks in the overworld. And alomost nobody will do that. Operators can just ./tp

    Other option would be the liquid duplicator from Immibis Core.
     
  16. Jadedcat

    Jadedcat Gamepack Creator Retired Staff


    I am sorry you feel I am being unfair. No my analogies are not always the best. Is there code language that could explain this better? Yes. Will the average user understand it? No. I probably won't fully understand it. I worded it as best I could to point out the issue in a way people would understand. I have edited out the analogies and the specific suspected code sections to try and make it less offensive and aggressive. The wording always stated "may cause" not "will cause". I have also changed the wording slightly in the hopes it makes the point in a clearer way.

    I have added the mcpc+ support information to the post.

    Is Bukkit minecraft different from vanilla? Yes

    Is modded minecraft different from vanilla minecraft? Yes.

    Is MCPC+ /Bukkit different than modded minecraft? Yes.

    Its 4 different types of minecraft.



    I get these reports from server owners every day.

    I am not trying to be mean or say people should never use MCPC+. I am saying we can't fix it if they do. Server owners asked me to give them alternatives and tell them what's happening. We agreed to open a thread and list the issues we know occur with MCPC+ . This gives admins a place where they can tell us what they need if they want to switch. Nowhere did I say "Don't use it" . All I did is list known issues.

    Server admins say: "Why no MCPC+ support?
    We say: because we can't trouble shoot it.
    They say :give us alternatives then.

    This thread is about server admins letting us know what they need to be able to do and seeing if its possible in plain modded minecraft.

    MCPC+ causes huge amounts of time lost in bug testing. I have to verify the bug is occurring on an MCPC+ installation. Than I have to duplicate the setup without MCPC+ and see if I can get the bug to occur again. This doubles the verification time for all bug reports.

    I am well aware that this thread was never going to endear me to the MCPC+ dev team. I did not write this out of some sort of personal anger towards MCPC+. I wrote it because people keep asking why are the bugs from MCPC+ servers being ignored? Why do we not offer tech support for them? Why are there no alternatives? What are the known issues that only seem to occur on MCPC+ servers? I answered them.
     
  17. Disconsented

    Disconsented Active Member

    Why not just say:
    We have little experience/understanding with/of MCPC+ and as such are poorly equipped to help ?
     
  18. Jadedcat

    Jadedcat Gamepack Creator Retired Staff

    Because thats not true? A lot of FTB staff admin their own servers some of them quite large. We have experience with MCPC+ .

    And shockingly... some of us have written Bukkit plugins :p
     
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  19. asiekierka

    asiekierka Over-Achiever Mod Developer

    It is actually not fully possible with Forge. It lacks many of the important and necessary events, such as listening on inventory changes. That's probably why nobody bothered and that is one of the reasons I'm staying with MCPC+.

    (And to anyone who tells me to use regions or similar kinds of protection, NO. I believe they inhibit the legitimate players' freedom to build and explore the world. Same with "get better players and a whitelist". Sometimes, even rigidly controlled whitelists can't stop the worst kind of jerks.)
     
  20. Jadedcat

    Jadedcat Gamepack Creator Retired Staff

    As we appear to have several new users in this thread please ensure you read the rules

    http://forum.feed-the-beast.com/threads/bullying-and-attacks.26666/
    and

    http://forum.feed-the-beast.com/pages/rules/

    This thread is about server owners/admins telling us what they need for servers not about attacking either side.

    This color and font size are my moderating voice.
    [DOUBLEPOST=1388319005][/DOUBLEPOST]
    How then do mods log block changes to the debug console? I am curious as to why the one would be possible and the other not possible.
     
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