Block changes are one of the few things that Forge covers with its event system. Many other things, the most important one being inventory changes, are not. Forge just doesn't have code for it.
PSA: MCPC+ and Modded Minecraft
- Thread starter Jadedcat
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Block changes are one of the few things that Forge covers with its event system. Many other things, the most important one being inventory changes, are not. Forge just doesn't have code for it.
Let me start out by saying that this is my personal opinion and not reflective of any team position on the matter (and it's very obviously not moderator text like Jaded's right above =)). I have a very strong opinion when it comes to forge&bukkit interactions, as anybody familiar with my pre-moderator post history knows.
The MCPC+ team has taken on a task of herculean proportions and has made the best of a very suboptimal situation. I happen to think, with the factors at play in that relationship, that the task in the long run is Sisyphean, though, and it's not their fault. In fact, most of the actors in this are being perfectly rational about it (opinion, but I'll substantiate it with observations and a salient link in a bit), and the problem isn't from the end of the MCPC+ folks, the mod devs, or the forge crew (more of my opinion).
From the end of the mod devs, to include MCPC+ compatibility as it stands requires compliance with not one, but two platforms. Some of them do it without complaint because it's easy for them or they have the time/understanding/tenacity/what have you. Other devs/dev teams have less time/patience/energy/know-how/whatever to try and fit into two boxes when they already are stuffing themselves into one. This isn't just FTB going "oh we don't want to pass along these reports", there are devs/dev teams that actively will never touch anything involving MCPC+ because they don't want the extra work for reasons of their own which we have no business impugning. Modding is a hobby, not a job, and it isn't fair to demand them to do the extra work either, after all. The old way this was gotten around in the 1.2 era was by having separate bukkit-compatible versions maintained by third parties, but when 1.3 hit and server/client became unified (including on the mod side, where authors were quick to adopt universal distributions), the feasibility of maintaining that kind of framework dropped quite a bit. Yes, MCPC+ is quick to fix issues they can fix, but they also run into their fair share of things that do require the mod to change something, or where there is a dispute over who should change what.
Want an example? Do some searching around to see the arguments between the IC2 team and the MCPC+ team around IC2 builds 1.117-374 to 1.117-385, the versions included in latter iterations of FTB Unleashed in fact. The IC2 EnergyNet implementation has been dragged along up to date for a long time and was fraying at the edges as it was in those releases, but in conjunction with MCPC+ it was simply intolerable for servers to deal with. MCPC+ folks said it was an IC2 problem, IC2 team said it was an MCPC+ issue and that additionally they were kind of busy working on their 1.6 stuff. What does a third party like FTB do to "fix" that one and make everybody happy, pray tell?
Okay, so then, since this is all such a headache, why don't the Forge folks just get together and make it all work with bukkit so folks only have to make mods work with one platform? Well, I'm glad you asked. This is the response they got when they tried just that. Now you know why I said most of the actors are being perfectly rational (in my opinion). And then some people (in my opinion) decide they're too big to fail and that modded Minecraft is a second-class community unworthy of concessions/cooperation.
So, we have MCPC+ trying to bridge the gap between two inimical APIs and doing a damn fine job of it given what they have. We have mod devs who, due to whatever factors cannot or will not -- and we have zero right to gripe about this, guys -- try to write their code to fit in the space of conformity between the two platforms. And in the shorter term there's no magic key that's going to unlock the gates here to make it any easier, because any interoperability between forge and bukkit is going to be despite itself rather than by design, at least on one end.
You want solutions? Here's three to try on for size:
The MCPC+ team has taken on a task of herculean proportions and has made the best of a very suboptimal situation. I happen to think, with the factors at play in that relationship, that the task in the long run is Sisyphean, though, and it's not their fault. In fact, most of the actors in this are being perfectly rational about it (opinion, but I'll substantiate it with observations and a salient link in a bit), and the problem isn't from the end of the MCPC+ folks, the mod devs, or the forge crew (more of my opinion).
From the end of the mod devs, to include MCPC+ compatibility as it stands requires compliance with not one, but two platforms. Some of them do it without complaint because it's easy for them or they have the time/understanding/tenacity/what have you. Other devs/dev teams have less time/patience/energy/know-how/whatever to try and fit into two boxes when they already are stuffing themselves into one. This isn't just FTB going "oh we don't want to pass along these reports", there are devs/dev teams that actively will never touch anything involving MCPC+ because they don't want the extra work for reasons of their own which we have no business impugning. Modding is a hobby, not a job, and it isn't fair to demand them to do the extra work either, after all. The old way this was gotten around in the 1.2 era was by having separate bukkit-compatible versions maintained by third parties, but when 1.3 hit and server/client became unified (including on the mod side, where authors were quick to adopt universal distributions), the feasibility of maintaining that kind of framework dropped quite a bit. Yes, MCPC+ is quick to fix issues they can fix, but they also run into their fair share of things that do require the mod to change something, or where there is a dispute over who should change what.
Want an example? Do some searching around to see the arguments between the IC2 team and the MCPC+ team around IC2 builds 1.117-374 to 1.117-385, the versions included in latter iterations of FTB Unleashed in fact. The IC2 EnergyNet implementation has been dragged along up to date for a long time and was fraying at the edges as it was in those releases, but in conjunction with MCPC+ it was simply intolerable for servers to deal with. MCPC+ folks said it was an IC2 problem, IC2 team said it was an MCPC+ issue and that additionally they were kind of busy working on their 1.6 stuff. What does a third party like FTB do to "fix" that one and make everybody happy, pray tell?
Okay, so then, since this is all such a headache, why don't the Forge folks just get together and make it all work with bukkit so folks only have to make mods work with one platform? Well, I'm glad you asked. This is the response they got when they tried just that. Now you know why I said most of the actors are being perfectly rational (in my opinion). And then some people (in my opinion) decide they're too big to fail and that modded Minecraft is a second-class community unworthy of concessions/cooperation.
So, we have MCPC+ trying to bridge the gap between two inimical APIs and doing a damn fine job of it given what they have. We have mod devs who, due to whatever factors cannot or will not -- and we have zero right to gripe about this, guys -- try to write their code to fit in the space of conformity between the two platforms. And in the shorter term there's no magic key that's going to unlock the gates here to make it any easier, because any interoperability between forge and bukkit is going to be despite itself rather than by design, at least on one end.
You want solutions? Here's three to try on for size:
- Get more forge mods that do your must-need plugin things. For this you need to provide input on what you actually want to somebody who can actually do it, though. Bonus points for somebody brave enough to make the necessary pull requests to Forge so that it does have the right listening events or what have you (I believe Lex has been patiently waiting for a long time for people to show up with these, if I recall correctly).
- Sit on our hands and wait for Mojang's API to continue to coalesce and deeply hope it cuts the Gordian Knot on all of this. I have hopes, particularly since Mojang's recently hired Searge, but hope isn't really my kind of strategy.
- Find ways to make do with what we have, and work within the limitations. This means understanding that these conflicts will occur, there are no easy solutions, and it's going to be jury-rigged with ducttape and sweat. Which I think in part is what this thread is trying to accomplish if I am not mistaken, right?
Just to throw in a developers PoV on this: FTB won't take MCPC+ reports and nor will we (atleast in the TCon/Natura team).
We do this not because we "hate Bukkit" but because MCPC+ is, frankly, a hack to make two incompatible systems play nice together. It's a beautiful hack, and very well done, but it has to make compromises that damage the way that Forge is meant to run. This means bugs are horrible to fix in MCPC+ reports. In response to this, we always say to report it to MCPC+'s team if you cannot reproduce a bug in a vanilla Forge server.
Also note, if you see a line in a crash log yelling about unsupported environments, a modder has put that there on purpose so save yourself the humiliation and don't report it! It wastes your time (collecting logs, writing summary) and ours (having to make a snarky remark and close the issue).
Very well put as always Jaded, thanks!
We do this not because we "hate Bukkit" but because MCPC+ is, frankly, a hack to make two incompatible systems play nice together. It's a beautiful hack, and very well done, but it has to make compromises that damage the way that Forge is meant to run. This means bugs are horrible to fix in MCPC+ reports. In response to this, we always say to report it to MCPC+'s team if you cannot reproduce a bug in a vanilla Forge server.
Also note, if you see a line in a crash log yelling about unsupported environments, a modder has put that there on purpose so save yourself the humiliation and don't report it! It wastes your time (collecting logs, writing summary) and ours (having to make a snarky remark and close the issue).
Very well put as always Jaded, thanks!
In relation to Thaumcraft's Warded blocks, my mod, Blocks Plus adds blocks with similar functionality. Firstly it adds "Secure Blocks" which can only be broken by the user who placed them using the "Lolipop of Removal". They can also be disguised by right clicking on them with another block. I have also added "Phantom Blocks" whicch have the same features as "Secure Blocks" but the user who placed the block can also walk through them. You can find this mod @ http://dylangore.info/blocks-plus/
My website is currently offline so here are the downloads:
Blocks Plus (Requires GoreCore): 1.3.0 (MC1.6.4) Download
GoreCore: 1.3.1 (MC1.6.4) Download
And if anyone has any suggestions, send me a PM, I would be glad to hear them!
My website is currently offline so here are the downloads:
Blocks Plus (Requires GoreCore): 1.3.0 (MC1.6.4) Download
GoreCore: 1.3.1 (MC1.6.4) Download
And if anyone has any suggestions, send me a PM, I would be glad to hear them!
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My "MUST HAVE" mods/plugins:
My "SHOULD HAVE" mods/plugins:
I would happily switch out MCPC+ if I had access to the "must have" plugins/mods, and I would worship the FTB gods if I could get my hands on the "should have" plugins/mods.
I've been experimenting with Forge and mods these last couple of days, trying to find any replacements for my bukkit plugins with the above functionallity. At the moment, the only mod I've found as a "must have" plugin is the MyTown plugin from legobear. Do anyone have any suggestions what I can use to get votifier support and/or Essentials functionallity with forge mods?
Many thanks in advance!
- Votifier
- Essentials like mod (ForgeEssentials is out of date)
My "SHOULD HAVE" mods/plugins:
- Block logger
- Economy
- MultiWorld
- WorldEdit
I would happily switch out MCPC+ if I had access to the "must have" plugins/mods, and I would worship the FTB gods if I could get my hands on the "should have" plugins/mods.
I've been experimenting with Forge and mods these last couple of days, trying to find any replacements for my bukkit plugins with the above functionallity. At the moment, the only mod I've found as a "must have" plugin is the MyTown plugin from legobear. Do anyone have any suggestions what I can use to get votifier support and/or Essentials functionallity with forge mods?
Many thanks in advance!
I haven't had any MCPC+ specific issues in 1.6 for a very long time.
Have you had any feedback from larger servers trying to run in a forge only environment? It's damn near impossible.
Item based economies generally don't work very well in modded MC, especially when you can create (UU Matter) or dig up most blocks in minutes. A Money based economy where you can sell big ticket items for something that cannot be obtained (Crafted or dug up) In-Game adds a nice metagame especially for late game players.
So im supposed to add specific people to not use certain blocks? My community is whitelisted and we have a couple of hundred regulars. What about non-whitelisted communities? Are we supposed to add every player that logs in into the NEIServer config so they cant nuke the place? The config also doesn't reload, it requires a server reboot. SO everytime I'm whitelisting a new player i need to add them to the NEIServer config and then reboot the server? On another modpack my community is using, we are sometimes whitelisting players every 30 minutes.
The NEIServer config is NOT a solution, it's a bad workaround.
Hit these with a vajra and watch them open up. Or you could force wrench them and take them to a place never to be seen again. This storage is not safe.
MyTown is all we currently have. It gives a good level of protection assuming that the mod author has added block break events but many mod authors refuse to add them in (Looking at you, iChun)
Votifier is very good for the server, rewarding players for more exposure is a big bonus.
Have a look at ForgePerms, it comes with an inbuilt PEX: http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1889473-legobear154s-mods-mytown-aperf-and-forgeperms/
Forge Essentials is rarely updated. I'm not planning to rely on a mod that looks half baked and doubtful to see 1.7. Especially when JadedCat says "We can provide tech support for server owners using mods that duplicate Bukkit functionality." so when ForgeEssentials breaks should I be expecting official support from the FTB team?
What I (we?) need that forge doesn't currently offer solutions for:
The mods don't exist. And for the mods that do exist, mod authors are not even using the forge events. MyTown listens to the blockbreak event (and a few others) but when mod authors like iChun and many other's don't even put them in their mod there is nothing we can do.
The MCPC+ guys are doing an amazing job and I am absolutely appalled how the FTB has treated them. I actually saw someone, who has posted on this thread jump into the MCPC+ IRC tonight and abuse Blood for a "broken server where 99% of all issues come from MCPC+" even though the issue that this person was talking about existing in vanilla forge (Not just MCPC+) and had not even been reported to MCPC+.
You don't even need to support the server, if you have a support request come through that is from a server owner running MCPC+ politely ask them to replicate the issue in Forge. If the issue is MCPC+ specific then direct them to MCPC+ github where they will take care of it.
I don't understand why you are taking such a backwards stance on things, all I see here from the FTB guys is "MCPC+ is crap and buggy, we don't want to see it". It convolutes peoples perception of a herculean effort the MCPC+ guys are doing and gives the MCPC+ project a bad name simply because "The FTB staff know what everything so they must be right!".
Nallar announced yesterday that a TickThreading server wrapper will be used in place of a forge jar. Are you going to put (in my opinion) one of the most ambitious and important mods that modded MC server owners have ever seen in the same boat as "it's not forge we don't care"?
With the position you guys have in the modded MC community, you should be promoting and encouraging innovation. Especially when it comes to what MCPC+ (And soon, TickThreading) are doing.
Sorry for the long rant but TLR, ask server owners to replicate the issue in forge. If it turns out to be MCPC+ don't tell them to go away, send them to MCPC+ support where the issue can be fixed. This doesn't add much overhead to the support you are currently doing. See crash report with mcpc? Ask for Forge Replication. Don't work against what developers are doing. Support and encourage innovation.
Have you had any feedback from larger servers trying to run in a forge only environment? It's damn near impossible.
Item based economies generally don't work very well in modded MC, especially when you can create (UU Matter) or dig up most blocks in minutes. A Money based economy where you can sell big ticket items for something that cannot be obtained (Crafted or dug up) In-Game adds a nice metagame especially for late game players.
So im supposed to add specific people to not use certain blocks? My community is whitelisted and we have a couple of hundred regulars. What about non-whitelisted communities? Are we supposed to add every player that logs in into the NEIServer config so they cant nuke the place? The config also doesn't reload, it requires a server reboot. SO everytime I'm whitelisting a new player i need to add them to the NEIServer config and then reboot the server? On another modpack my community is using, we are sometimes whitelisting players every 30 minutes.
The NEIServer config is NOT a solution, it's a bad workaround.
Hit these with a vajra and watch them open up. Or you could force wrench them and take them to a place never to be seen again. This storage is not safe.
MyTown is all we currently have. It gives a good level of protection assuming that the mod author has added block break events but many mod authors refuse to add them in (Looking at you, iChun)
Votifier is very good for the server, rewarding players for more exposure is a big bonus.
Have a look at ForgePerms, it comes with an inbuilt PEX: http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1889473-legobear154s-mods-mytown-aperf-and-forgeperms/
Forge Essentials is rarely updated. I'm not planning to rely on a mod that looks half baked and doubtful to see 1.7. Especially when JadedCat says "We can provide tech support for server owners using mods that duplicate Bukkit functionality." so when ForgeEssentials breaks should I be expecting official support from the FTB team?
What I (we?) need that forge doesn't currently offer solutions for:
- BlockLogging - While protection mods are awesome, with the amount of mods in the modpacks and some mod authors that don't care their mods bypass things. We need a way to what players are doing. There's nothing worse than not having the ability to track players.
- World Border - Maybe not a necessity for some but putting a world border on and PreGenerating the overworld can really help down the line. No more lag from someone blasting across the world in a GraviSuit generating chunks.
- Chat Management - I use HeroChat and CraftIRC. This lets players talk to each other across my MC server network and also allows them to have their own conversations in their private channels. MyTown has "town channels" and ForgeIRC can connect chat to IRC but guess what. ForgeIRC is no longer being updated and it doesn't support chat channels. All private chat ends up in IRC using the only forge solution around.
- Optimizations - Forge is not optimized well for larger servers. From my experience with it, it acts as a base for mods to do whatever they want. Open up /chunkloaders on a forge based server and youll see chunks opening and closing. This is because a mod wanted to open the chunk and forge lets it, but what if that chunk is in the middle of a players base and that player decided to put 500 other TE's into that chunk? They all tick too! Multiply that a couple of hundred times and your TPS goes through the floor. MCPC+ allows me to stop that from happening, it might make things a tiny bit more unstable but the positives far outweigh the negatives.
- WorldEdit - A way for staff to create nice large structures for the players to enjoy when they log in WITHOUT spending hours placing the same block over and over.
- Ban Aggregation - Mcbans or whatever else you use. More for non-whitelist servers. Check a player against a global database, if they are on it then cya later. Especially important if there is no block logging.
- Convenient ways to monetize the server - I'm talking about buycraft (I've never used anything else so I can't comment on anything else). A convenient and automatic way to monetize a server which can run into the hundreds of dollars/month. If you make donations too hard then players simply don't donate because it's not worth their time.
The mods don't exist. And for the mods that do exist, mod authors are not even using the forge events. MyTown listens to the blockbreak event (and a few others) but when mod authors like iChun and many other's don't even put them in their mod there is nothing we can do.
The MCPC+ guys are doing an amazing job and I am absolutely appalled how the FTB has treated them. I actually saw someone, who has posted on this thread jump into the MCPC+ IRC tonight and abuse Blood for a "broken server where 99% of all issues come from MCPC+" even though the issue that this person was talking about existing in vanilla forge (Not just MCPC+) and had not even been reported to MCPC+.
You don't even need to support the server, if you have a support request come through that is from a server owner running MCPC+ politely ask them to replicate the issue in Forge. If the issue is MCPC+ specific then direct them to MCPC+ github where they will take care of it.
I don't understand why you are taking such a backwards stance on things, all I see here from the FTB guys is "MCPC+ is crap and buggy, we don't want to see it". It convolutes peoples perception of a herculean effort the MCPC+ guys are doing and gives the MCPC+ project a bad name simply because "The FTB staff know what everything so they must be right!".
Nallar announced yesterday that a TickThreading server wrapper will be used in place of a forge jar. Are you going to put (in my opinion) one of the most ambitious and important mods that modded MC server owners have ever seen in the same boat as "it's not forge we don't care"?
With the position you guys have in the modded MC community, you should be promoting and encouraging innovation. Especially when it comes to what MCPC+ (And soon, TickThreading) are doing.
Sorry for the long rant but TL
R, ask server owners to replicate the issue in forge. If it turns out to be MCPC+ don't tell them to go away, send them to MCPC+ support where the issue can be fixed. This doesn't add much overhead to the support you are currently doing. See crash report with mcpc? Ask for Forge Replication. Don't work against what developers are doing. Support and encourage innovation.
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I agree with Cozza on this. TickThreading is THE MOST important mod of large servers.
A admin should be removing items like these, any complaint is your fault. Its not hard to set the itemid to 0.
Any based economies don't work in minecraft at all because of how it works, modded minecraft just makes it even worse.
Money based economies just add a extra unneeded step and a guise for players.
Tinkers construct has a world boarder config option iirc.
Things like ban aggregation dont need a plugin, community should work together with these things, if this doesn't exist, make it.
World edit? Really... From fillers, builders, creative builders wands and many other things its not hard to create big structures...
I don't understand how rejecting bug reports that MCPC cause is treating them bad?
People complain then they do a post explaining WHY they wont accept bug reports... for legit reasons?...
I can't be bothered to talk about the rest of the 'problems', but all of them can be fixed by good admin'ing and changing configs...
And alot of creativity...
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The MCPC+ guys are doing an amazing job and I am absolutely appalled how the FTB has treated them. I actually saw someone, who has posted on this thread jump into the MCPC+ IRC tonight and abuse Blood for a "broken server where 99% of all issues come from MCPC+" even though the issue that this person was talking about existing in vanilla forge (Not just MCPC+) and had not even been reported to MCPC+.
I don't understand why you are taking such a backwards stance on things, all I see here from the FTB guys is "MCPC+ is crap and buggy, we don't want to see it". It convolutes peoples perception of a herculean effort the MCPC+ guys are doing and gives the MCPC+ project a bad name simply because "The FTB staff know what everything so they must be right!".
With the position you guys have in the modded MC community, you should be promoting and encouraging innovation. Especially when it comes to what MCPC+ (And soon, TickThreading) are doing.
Sorry for the long rant but TL
Where did I say its crappy? Where did any FTB staff voice its "crappy"? I have said it has issues we can't address.
This is a thread about letting server owners tell us what they need. Its about finding out what's possible. Innovation means competition. That means finding if something can be done a different way.
Sorry but I cannot help it if someone from the FTB forums goes to the MCPC+ irc and twists my words and causes hell . That would be like me blaming MCPC+ for people calling me names because they don't like me posting known issues. Fortunately I am aware that just because the fans are aggressive does not mean the dev team is telling them to be that way.
MCPC+ is a mod. We list known mod issues all over the forums even if we don't include them. No other mod developers have ever jumped me for stating issues we have found in testing with their mods. No other mods fans have ever jumped me for stating known issues. This is definitely a first.
Out of curiosity why is it wrong for FTB to say "hey there's some known issues we've gotten lots of reports here's what we know about it can people offer suggestions on the topic" but it is ok for me to say " Hey xyz version of xyz mods has a known crash bug/corruption bug disable it till we get a bug fix". The only reason for not listing known issues with any mod would be because we didn't want or care if the mod was fixed and we didn't care if players worlds had issues.
Its irresponsible of us to not put known verifiable duplicatable issues with any mod out for server admins and players. This includes Forge, Vanilla, MCPC+ BC , TE3, RC and any other mod people place in our modpacks.
And saying "it took a lot of work" does not invalidate current known issues. Lots of things take large amounts of work. That doesn't mean they don't have bugs.
I and the rest of staff are well aware of the issues facing large modded servers.That's why we said for many servers, not all servers it may be possible in modded minecraft alone. Its why we started this thread. We know what we want when managing servers, but is that what most people want? Is it possible to do in a purely modded environment? Just because MCPC+ is the best current option does not mean its without bugs or that it should have no competition.
Many server owners are not bug testers and many of them do not have a second server to test on. Just seeing if its repeatable in SSP doesn't tell you if its a SMP bug unrelated to MCPC+.
Helpful suggestions are welcome. We like helpful suggestions. We like bug fixes.
Randomly coming in a claiming FTB staff or anyone has no right to list known issues with a mod? Why would you even do that? Why would you not want known issues addressed somehow? That seems very odd to me. *shrug*
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Bear with the stupid questions please while I try to get to the bottom of what you are saying is needed?
If you can log blocks then you know what players have been doing. Why log inventory as well? For dupe detection?
I disagree. A non-obtrusive money based economy adds a great metagame and gives players something to do. Non-Obtrusive being key here.
Things like the Force Wrench are very key components of DartCraft. Why remove items from the game when I can protected them. (With a forge mod, in this case so its really a non-issue in the end)
It doesn't allow for chunk generation within the world border (PreGenerating the world) which is the issue I raised.
I am a server owner, not a modder. I know my place and use the tools that I have at my disposal. That tool is currently in the form of a bukkit plugin.
Try creating an extremely large circle in less than 10 seconds without something like worldedit and let me know how you go. As you guys have said several times, this is about finding suitable replacements for bukkit stuff. Not badly implemented workarounds.
Apologies I was wrong here, let me rephrase.
The general stance that the FTB team takes towards MCPC+ gives a negative impression to a project that has cops enough flak as it is. In turn, this deters people from trying out a perfectly capable server platform and very ambitious project.
From what I have seen in my time as a server owner, developers don't want to create mods for forge that give the same functionality that an MCPC+ server and bukkit plugincan do perfectly fine. Developer's aren't wanting to reinvent the wheel.
But you can help it, stop playing down MCPC+ as a non-valid server platform to your players. You are not explicitly telling your users that MCPC+ is at fault for any and all obscure error, but you are certainly implying it.
MCPC+ is not a mod in any way. it's an alternative server platform. Many mod developers don't support MCPC+ because they simply refuse to address it. That's not the FTB team's fault in any way but I do believe that people need to start changing the way they think about ambitious projects like MCPC+ (And very soon, TickThreading) who are simply out to make server owners' lives better.
Nothing stopping people from running up a local server on their workstation with a copy of the world.
Not sure where your getting any of this from? It's 2am so I'm a little tired but I'm pretty sure I didn't write that
I like giving helpful suggestions, but to put it simply. I cannot currently see a way for a server to successfully grow outside of "a few trusted friends" without a platform like MCPC+.
I've told you what I need and would love to see feedback.
The other issue is that we get new players moving from bukkit servers every day whom are brand new to modded MC and modpacks. It is MUCH easier to introduce a "bukkit trained" player when they are coming into familiar bukkit plugins. Why have a dirty workaround which only confuses players and makes them frustrated.
Personally, I would drop MCPC+ in a heartbeat if forge had suitable alternatives. But the reality is, it doesn't.
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Honestly there's a lot of thing we list known issues with. The only thing we actively advise against completely is Optifine. Everything else is a "known issues use it as you will". This is slightly different because we do get people asking if there are alternatives. And we'd like to know that too. Mod authors frquently get blamed incorrectly by players for bugs that are MCPC+ issues. Then mods that have a lot of time effort and sweat put into them are pulled from servers because "its buggy" . That is the rock and hard place we are currently stuck between. MCPC+ getting blamed by players (not us) for every issue or mod authors getting blamed for issues. If all mods worked as intended with MCPC+ and vice versa it wouldn't be an issue on either side. But it is no more fair for a mod author to be blamed by bukkit players for "grr mods cause everything" than it is for MCPC+ to get "grr mcpc+ causes everything" And we have not said MCPC+ causes everything.
Developers frequently reinvent the wheel. Have you seen the number of mods that have some kind of grinder/crusher? The tendency is to try and do it better or differently.
Again we're not. We are looking to see if there are other options. Checking to see if there's vanilla icecream instead of choclate does not imply chocolate is bad. It says we would like options.
We are trying to make server owners lives better too. Just because one group did it doesn't mean no one else should try.
Interestingly enough. One of the fun bugs we found a while back. Duplicatable repeatedly on MCPC+ servers. Not duplicatable on a local server. Luckily enough our bug test team didn't stop there or it would have incorrectly been labeled an MCPC+ bug. Instead we looked further and found the actual but involved a Windows client connecting to a Linux server. Which is why the test team checks everything we can before labeling it as a possible MCPC+ issue. That bug has been fixed btw. It only took 9 hours to track down.
That wasn't directed at you. I can be very bad with quotes
We have no idea if its possible in Forge. Thats what we hope to find out. Or find some other way of addressing the cross-interaction issues between MCPC+ and mods. Because its not fair toe players or server admins to have to pick between mods that add content and plugins that add utility/admin abilities. Its not fair on either side.
This is why I suggested to redirect players that are showing MCPC+ specific issues to the MCPC+ github where it can be addressed. From my limited searching, I've only seen "It's MCPC+, we don''t support it" and not "It appears to be an MCPC+ issue. Unfortunately we don't support MCPC+, head over here and log a support ticket to the MCPC+ team"
This helps MCPC+ fix bugs and in the end makes a better product.
Your right, but unfortunately non of them are doing fully functional admin tools, which is what we desperately need. Most mods have something "adminy" in them, but we really need a dedicated forge based solution.
This is super specific and I'm sure you can agree that it is very rare.
Anyway, off to bed. I'm interested to see what comes of this.
Try and think about it from a server owner perspective. You need Mcpc+, there is no current way around this. If you are an open server or have more then like 5 people, you are basicly forced to use it.
Now something happens to your server. It crashes. You now go to the modder and they tell you they don't support mcpc+ and you should tell them.
You go then to them and tell them and they tell you its the modder.
In that situation you are pretty much screwed and can only hope the modpack author will soon find a way around it.
That needs to improve, be it either with Forge doing new and better Server admin work or with Mcpc+ getting less overall rejected.
Now something happens to your server. It crashes. You now go to the modder and they tell you they don't support mcpc+ and you should tell them.
You go then to them and tell them and they tell you its the modder.
In that situation you are pretty much screwed and can only hope the modpack author will soon find a way around it.
That needs to improve, be it either with Forge doing new and better Server admin work or with Mcpc+ getting less overall rejected.
That's hoping that the modpack author wants to find a way around it.
And if they don't, we end up in a situation like unleashed where we had a broken IC2 build (with MCPC+) for several versions until it was addressed months down the track.
As much as I'd love to say "woo MCPC+" I can't - It causes numerous issues, especially on frontline tech support. The reason for the terse "not supported because MCPC+" is because people never read their logs before pestering us. Server owners should know what they're doing before fiddling with such things, and should be doing the proper checks. They do not, this is why Jaded's post was needed. The terse form is also useful because it means we divert less of our time to dealing with unsupported environments. Would you rather we take time to write extended prose for every bug closed, or actually work on our mods?
Anyway, if people want Bukkit-esque plugins, they'll need to A) Get someone who wants to implement it and B) get the necessary hooks into Forge. The issue is modders prefer to make content (after all, we do this for fun not reward), while Bukkit is expressly targeted at server operators, so software is made to meet the need. The Bukkit API was also designed for this stuff, while Forge is intended for general purpose modding. If this is such a problem, stop using Forge or contribute to projects like ForgeEssentials. Moaning about it to us will merely annoy us more than already.
Anyway, if people want Bukkit-esque plugins, they'll need to A) Get someone who wants to implement it and B) get the necessary hooks into Forge. The issue is modders prefer to make content (after all, we do this for fun not reward), while Bukkit is expressly targeted at server operators, so software is made to meet the need. The Bukkit API was also designed for this stuff, while Forge is intended for general purpose modding. If this is such a problem, stop using Forge or contribute to projects like ForgeEssentials. Moaning about it to us will merely annoy us more than already.
Currently there is alot going with CME (concurrent modification exception) errors that are thrown left and right.
Those should be reported to the modders in question; just saying "this is being thrown by stuff" helps nobody. This is also very off-topic. If this is a tick-threading thing, some modders will want to address that - It's up the developers in question.
Edit: Typo
TL;DR even without support a spot to discuss MCPC+ issues would be valuable. Plugin type mods that forge servers need listed below.
It isn't hard to throw a pre-made modpack on a server and go. The difference between a good server and a great one is frequently it's staff/administration. Great staff needs to have reliable and powerful tools to administer server and add extra layers of complexity to game. On our server we have RP elements, tools to make working together easier, tools to reward good players we trust access to some dangerous items, tools to fix mod bugs, etc. Many provided by plugins.
Yes some of the Bukkit people are unwilling to work with Forge, but the MCPC+ people are (pretty sure one of them is working on forge essentials). So good communication could help make it work better.
If we used FTB launcher or packs I wouldn't expect you to offer tech support to MCPC+ anymore then I would expect you to do it for mods. However the general population thinks this is your job and turn here for support. An area to discuss and sort out MCPC+ issues in context of your modpacks would be useful. Even if it only allows those who don't know how to test bugs, how or where to properly submit bug reports a spot to share info to those who do.
Needed plugin-type mods
Logging/Rollback.
- Tracks all inventories
- Tracks all block-break/block-place events, by players and fake-players (quarries, turtles, wand of equal trade etc.)
- Tracks chat and commands
- Uses a MySQL or SQLlite DB.
This is critical. Prism, only one that can log mod item inventories, has provided tools and the MCPC+ team (Blood) has done amazing things to allow logging and rollback of modded items. To the point of using NBT data so that I could rollback a destroyed machine with same power, heat, items, progress etc as it had at point of breaking. And logs and rollsback block-breaks of such things as turtles, quarries etc. Had to initially use physic events because the break events etc weren't provided by forge. But now they at least partly are.
A major issue we admins face is that some mods don't consider larger public servers in there design. And based on some permission requirements, some don't want public servers to exist, but I digress. Properly providing block-break calls etc would make a forge based logging/rollback mod more possible.
Other plugins
- World Edit Mod with lite-loader type addons
- Item restrict that allows a permission mod to grant access to some groups (setting to ID 0 is brute force and not really a solution)
- World Border
- WorldGuard
- Proper locking Mod like LWC (TE3 has nice, but limited system and is only 1 mod).
- Spleef
- PVP arena
And those are just the basic must haves, with a couple of fun ones.
MCPC+ is a powerful tool for server admins, but it is not for the inexperienced or faint of heart. We run a semi-public 1.6.4 pack on a newish public server. We could not and wouldn't dream of running it without the bukkit plugins MCPC+ allows. Bukkit does something's better than forge and vice versa and at the moment we need both.
We have run into more then a few issues caused by MCPC+, but we properly test bugs and properly submit bug reports to the right people.
It isn't hard to throw a pre-made modpack on a server and go. The difference between a good server and a great one is frequently it's staff/administration. Great staff needs to have reliable and powerful tools to administer server and add extra layers of complexity to game. On our server we have RP elements, tools to make working together easier, tools to reward good players we trust access to some dangerous items, tools to fix mod bugs, etc. Many provided by plugins.
Yes some of the Bukkit people are unwilling to work with Forge, but the MCPC+ people are (pretty sure one of them is working on forge essentials). So good communication could help make it work better.
If we used FTB launcher or packs I wouldn't expect you to offer tech support to MCPC+ anymore then I would expect you to do it for mods. However the general population thinks this is your job and turn here for support. An area to discuss and sort out MCPC+ issues in context of your modpacks would be useful. Even if it only allows those who don't know how to test bugs, how or where to properly submit bug reports a spot to share info to those who do.
Needed plugin-type mods
Logging/Rollback.
- Tracks all inventories
- Tracks all block-break/block-place events, by players and fake-players (quarries, turtles, wand of equal trade etc.)
- Tracks chat and commands
- Uses a MySQL or SQLlite DB.
This is critical. Prism, only one that can log mod item inventories, has provided tools and the MCPC+ team (Blood) has done amazing things to allow logging and rollback of modded items. To the point of using NBT data so that I could rollback a destroyed machine with same power, heat, items, progress etc as it had at point of breaking. And logs and rollsback block-breaks of such things as turtles, quarries etc. Had to initially use physic events because the break events etc weren't provided by forge. But now they at least partly are.
A major issue we admins face is that some mods don't consider larger public servers in there design. And based on some permission requirements, some don't want public servers to exist, but I digress. Properly providing block-break calls etc would make a forge based logging/rollback mod more possible.
Other plugins
- World Edit Mod with lite-loader type addons
- Item restrict that allows a permission mod to grant access to some groups (setting to ID 0 is brute force and not really a solution)
- World Border
- WorldGuard
- Proper locking Mod like LWC (TE3 has nice, but limited system and is only 1 mod).
- Spleef
- PVP arena
And those are just the basic must haves, with a couple of fun ones.
MCPC+ is a powerful tool for server admins, but it is not for the inexperienced or faint of heart. We run a semi-public 1.6.4 pack on a newish public server. We could not and wouldn't dream of running it without the bukkit plugins MCPC+ allows. Bukkit does something's better than forge and vice versa and at the moment we need both.
We have run into more then a few issues caused by MCPC+, but we properly test bugs and properly submit bug reports to the right people.
- Status