Gregtech deliberately crashing client if TC installed..

[DoctorOr]

Same thing with the forestry bronze. (What exactly was the bronze exploit, anyways?)

There wasn't, and isn't one. Ok, pay attention class.

• IC2 adds bronze. (yes, IC2 was first)
• Forestry uses a different recipe.
• Greg nerfs bronze output "bcuz IC2 ownz bronze duude" (Note that this is done even with the existence of a config option for forestry to not add its recipe)
• Greg gets beaten about the head and shoulders with heavy objects and adds a GT config
• Time passes. Birds sing. MC 1.5 is released
• Somebody asks for the ability to nerf the enchanting table, and Greg adds that - but in a rare fit of sanity on Greg's part, the default config is that the enchanting table is not nerfed.
• Greg decides to be an ass, and now the GT config for bronze switches between 3+1=1 and 3+1=2
• Greg thinks "Flint and steel?!?! but it uses Iron! THIS SHALL NOT BE, I HATH SPAKE"
• Sengir creates the work table, and the forestry configuration for bronze is the only relevant one when using that table. (Meaning, you can get 3+1=4 even when otherwise you cannot)
• Greg decides he doesn't need the bronze config option anymore and removes it.
• RichardG adds recipes to create Gregorium from iron and a stone sword, and use that Gregorium to make a flint and steel or enchanting table. The latter is basically irrelevant, because the enchanting table never got nerfed by default.
• Greg adds an option to return the flint and steel to the vanilla recipe (the option name is fundamentally stupid), pretends the config option always existed, and complains RichardG is picking on him.
• Time passes. Demons fart.
• 3.09 Greg decides to nerf every single base IC2 item, making them require plates over ingots
• 3.10 Greg then decides to nerf early "first hour" type vanilla items because nobody ever uses his sawmill.
• The Roar Is Heard, and Greg adds options to turn off recent vanilla nerfs. At first, the wood plank one doesn't actually work to unnerf plank output.
• Tinker's Construct re-adds the vanilla 1 wood = 4 plank recipe, but because GregTech goes out of its way to make sure it makes all its recipe changes last, Tinker's has to go further out of the way to make sure the return to vanilla recipe is Really Really Last. (When recipes conflict, last recipe matters)
• Greg causes any case where Tinker's Construct is loaded to crash the minecraft program. He probably fixes the wood plank config somewhere around here too, but since he never admits to responsibility he can't be mature enough to include such things in his changelog.
• When people start posting crash logs, Greg claims the bug is mDiyo's fault.
• Greg doubles down and pretends "I dinna do nuttin wrong!" until somebody decompiles and posts the code.
• Greg starts claiming mDiyo is hacking GregTech - by adding a recipe to the Forge recipe handler.
• mDiyo acts like an adult when dealing with a petulant child, by making the child think he "won"
• 3.11 of GT goes through no less than three stealth updates.
• Sycophants start pretending that "the crash was always intended to be removed" "it was just a test" etc, etc, etc

 

[Norren]

How about talking to the authors of the mods that create these exploits? I really feel that there has to be a better fix than Greg's "nerf the heck out of whatever's being exploited."

Most of these exploits are in fact not exploits, but simply concepts greg disagreed with, or simple compatibility issues such as the smelting issue that resulted in this entire debate that Saice illustrated. Consider the go to argument about crafting buckets out of tin and melting them down to Iron using heat/blu/ctricity- it is no more an "Exploit" than making Iron from Clay/gold using EE3's Minium stone or transmuting iron to gold using TC3, or even using alkahestry. You've consumed an easily replenishable resource to convert material from one resource to another. If you disallow one, it makes sense to disallow the others. Turning a blind eye to EE3/TC3/XR while bagging on tin to iron smelting is kind of mind boggling.

In that same vein, Greg adds his own fun and strange compatibility gimmicks. Try using dozens of apiaries running Pure Bees and one of his Flux generating EU power sources for free power that as a bonus comes with near infinite free single essentia, biased heavily towards Mutatio. (Note: it takes about 16 bees per node within the area of effect of the generator.)

So... I'm not seeing this as an "how are we going to fix exploits without it!?" issue. The exploit fixing is just inconsistent at best. It's really just a "how do you want to play?" issue, and that's up to you in the end, regardless of what your favorite server admin and the internet says.

 

[Harros]

Well after reading all 17 of these pages I'm here to throw in my two pennies in the beginning when GT was added to the FTB packs I really enjoyed it I was at that time still a big fan of IC and so I began playing with GT and edited to the configs to my liking of course Greg has changed since those early days and now I have a very low opinion on him and the "fans" he associates with of course these people are his yes-men and women and it only seeks to fuel him in his desire to create a mod world that is perfect in his eyes a super mod that is perfect in his nonsensical mind of course to do this he must have no one question his rule and if they do they and the people who use their mod must pay possibly in his mind its a small price to pay but for people who only want to play with mods in peace and in their way bit Greg's not another person just the person who is playing the mods way but it course if they want to get 4 planks per log for example with their bare hands that makes no sense in RL but in Minecraft there are things walking around with guts made of gunpowder, reanimated dead people and of course horribly disfigured village people but this is why we love Minecraft regardless if its in vanilla, FTB, Tekkit whatever it is Minecraft is not supposed to make sense and pushing your own ideology on people is a bad thing to do hell it's a horrible thing to do yet it seems that Greg is sone kind of god with his own religion and cult followers for those of you who have played Bioshock infinte I would compare Greg to Comstock mostly because they are both nuttier then a peach orchard street walker in the respect of wanting absolute unquestioned loyalty throughout their ranks. These are my thoughts agree disagree I really couldn't care less these are my thoughts on the subject and this is how I feel.

 

[Fuzzlewhumper]

Woah, dammit! I missed the demons farting, needed that so I could get the smelly bees to mutate into infernal smelly bees.

 

[Greevir]

Well after reading all 17 of these pages I'm here to throw in my two pennies in the beginning when GT was added to the FTB packs I really enjoyed it I was at that time still a big fan of IC and so I began playing with GT and edited to the configs to my liking of course Greg has changed since those early days and now I have a very low opinion on him and the "fans" he associates with of course these people are his yes-men and women and it only seeks to fuel him in his desire to create a mod world that is perfect in his eyes a super mod that is perfect in his nonsensical mind of course to do this he must have no one question his rule and if they do they and the people who use their mod must pay possibly in his mind its a small price to pay but for people who only want to play with mods in peace and in their way bit Greg's not another person just the person who is playing the mods way but it course if they want to get 4 planks per log for example with their bare hands that makes no sense in RL but in Minecraft there are things walking around with guts made of gunpowder, reanimated dead people and of course horribly disfigured village people but this is why we love Minecraft regardless if its in vanilla, FTB, Tekkit whatever it is Minecraft is not supposed to make sense and pushing your own ideology on people is a bad thing to do hell it's a horrible thing to do yet it seems that Greg is sone kind of god with his own religion and cult followers for those of you who have played Bioshock infinte I would compare Greg to Comstock mostly because they are both nuttier then a peach orchard street walker in the respect of wanting absolute unquestioned loyalty throughout their ranks. These are my thoughts agree disagree I really couldn't care less these are my thoughts on the subject and this is how I feel.

Holy shit! Use some freaking periods, man!

 

[DoctorOr]

Some of these exploits are created from Gregs balancing acts. The recent issue with Tinkers and GT is a good one to point to. Tinkers lets you make a tool that can smelt things using what ever furnace recipe there is for it. And lets you also apply furtune to it. So you pick a iron ore block and get 2-4 ingots. Much like other machine bases systems for ore duoubling only its a hand held tool. Sure a litte op but this takes 450 laps and some other things to make possable.

Tinker's is clearly in the wrong here. Still. And it's completely independent of Greg Tech.

Anytime a user-created item (or block) can be used to create more of the items used in its creation than that item actually uses, you have a dupe. Being able to "smelt and fortune" a user created block is exactly the same as being able create rich slag from smelting two dust in an induction smelter and then use that rich slag to create more than two ingots. KingLemming recognized that as a problem and fixed it. mDiyo should do the same.

 

[Bucket]

This is why I've been saying for ages that Greg simply should just up and isolate himself into a single modpack; He's already attempting to redefine MC into his own image. Many of the packs I want to play without GT are simply unstable for SMP, and the more common packs simply just defaults to this goddamn mod & his goddamn whims. The irony is that GT in his processes to one up another modder, made the common modpacks unstable & tedious for SMP, which screws us over.

 

[Whovian]

There wasn't, and isn't one. Ok, pay attention class.
-snip-

The bronze exploit was actually very present, and was a method of duplicating copper/tin/bronze. Here goes.

1) Make 4 Bronze Ingots with Forestry's recipe out of 3 Copper and 1 Tin.
2) Macerate these 4 Bronze Ingots into 4 Bronze Dust.
3) Put these through an Industrial Centrifuge to get 6 Copper Dust and 2 Tin Dust.
4) Smelt, rinse, and repeat.

The solutions I can think of are to switch IC2's Bronze Recipe and the Centrifuge Recipe (screws up IC2's Balance,) switch the Centrifuge recipe to Forestry's standard (introduces a similar dupe bug with the Uncrafting Table that no one will ever really use anyway because it costs so much xp and there are better ways of getting copper and tin and other similar bugs exist with the Uncrafting Table, but mostly this just sort of destroys the idea of the Industrial Centrifuge in the first place,) nerf Forestry Bronze (screws up Forestry's balance,) or just talk with Sengir about this and maybe come to the compromise of modifying both mods' balance around a new or old exchange ratio.[DOUBLEPOST=1374120512][/DOUBLEPOST]

Anytime a user-created item (or block) can be used to create more of the items used in its creation than that item actually uses, you have a dupe. Being able to "smelt and fortune" a user created block is exactly the same as being able create rich slag from smelting two dust in an induction smelter and then use that rich slag to create more than two ingots. KingLemming recognized that as a problem and fixed it. mDiyo should do the same.

Yes, you do have a dupe, but the dispute here is over whether it's mDiyo's fault or Greg's fault. This dupe bug is caused by a combination of Greg's messing with Vanilla recipes and the smelty-welty Fortune Pick.

 

[DoctorOr]

3) Put these through an Industrial Centrifuge to get 6 Copper Dust and 2 Tin Dust.

This is not an exploit, it is poor programming. The output of the centrifuge should vary depending on the recipes available to create bronze. Or at least, it would be. Except Greg actually did exactly that, at least until he removed the bronze config option altogether.

Of course, the whole Industrial Centrifuge "exploit" is one wholly created by GregTech itself. Much as the "wood exploit" he's claiming tinker's engaged in.

Thus, my statement stands. There was no bronze exploit.

 

[RandomMoped]

What if RichardG paid Greg to make his mod as ridiculously hard as possible to make so that people would simply abandon Gregtech at some point and the addon would became forgotten

 

[SpitefulFox]

What if RichardG paid Greg to make his mod as ridiculously hard as possible to make so that people would simply abandon Gregtech at some point and the addon would became forgotten

What if the NSA is forcing Greg to program his mod to spy on people for them and he's doing all these things in order to drive people away and save them? O_O

 

[DoctorOr]

Yes, you do have a dupe, but the dispute here is over whether it's mDiyo's fault or Greg's fault.

No, it isn't. It would be the fault of the mod allowing the multiplication of player created items. Again, the dupe is totally independent of Greg Tech, and mDiyo is in the wrong.

If I created a mod that let you pulverize one ingot for two dusts, that's a clear problem of my theoretical mod and it's irrelevant which mod is used to turn the dusts into ingots.

 

[Whovian]

This is not an exploit, it is poor programming. The output of the centrifuge should vary depending on the recipes available to create bronze. Or at least, it would be. Except Greg actually did exactly that, at least until he removed the bronze config option altogether.

I'd almost certainly say that a "multimachine" which takes in Tin and Copper and spits out twice that amount relying on an incompatibility qualifies as an exploit.

An easily fixable exploit? Yes, I even described a few methods of fixing it in my post.

But it was an exploit and needed fixing. Did he fix it the right way? Objectively, debatable, none of them had a complete advantage over the others. I'm unwilling to offer my opinion on this, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Fuzzlewhumper]

What if the NSA is forcing Greg to program his mod to spy on people for them and he's doing all these things in order to drive people away and save them? O_O

I feel like Bethany Sloane (Dogma) being queried by Jay about what conditions it would take for me to consider going to bed with him.

Under that very unlikely situation, yeah, sure, I guess. Thanks Greg.

 

[Daemonblue]

@Whovian The thing is if you just take Forestry and Buildcraft you have no ore duplication methods, so nerfing Forestry bronze to only give 2 ingots works out if it's in the presence of other mods that duplicates ore output. This, of course, could easily be a config option or something in the mod that detects if any other mod such as TiC, TE, or IC2 is installed and makes the change. This of course means the addition of the work table in Forestry ends up recreating a dupe between IC2 and Forestry as you had mentioned (craft with ingots, dust em, centrifuge, etc.).

 

[Technician]

Ew, greg.

 

[DoctorOr]

I'd almost certainly say that a "multimachine" which takes in Tin and Copper and spits out twice that amount relying on an incompatibility qualifies as an exploit.

If the config maintainer, be it the single player user or server operator, wants to configure such an exploit that is their choice and not for Greg to fix, much less force.

Forestry had, and has, a config option for its bronze, and according to Greg's actions Sengir has the "right" to start crashing the game anytime GregTech is loaded since it changes the bronze recipe without respecting the forestry configuration option.

 

[Whovian]

No, it isn't. It would be the fault of the mod allowing the multiplication of player created items. Again, the dupe is totally independent of Greg Tech, and mDiyo is in the wrong.

If I created a mod that let you pulverize one ingot for two dusts, that's a clear problem of my theoretical mod and it's irrelevant which mod is used to turn the dusts into ingots.

Say your theoretical mod also had a smelting recipe of 2 dust -> 1 ingot (or 1 dust -> 1 half-ingot, which can be crafted into full ingots.) Would it be the fault of that mod?

This is where it gets into tricky ground. Most people would argue that, because 1 dust -> 1 ingot is the standard among modders (and the Ore Dictionary allows such crazy incompatibilities,) it would be your mod's fault.

The same logic, however, can't be applied to the original scenario. The problem is that the smelting recipe of 1 block -> 9 ingots isn't the standard among modding, this is used only in Gregtech, which I don't believe is the standard. One could also argue that GT is at fault for adding the Smelting recipe which allowed this exploit.

But the dupe definitely isn't independent of Gregtech. Without Gregtech's storage block recipes, there would be no dupe glitch.

 

[Norren]

But the dupe definitely isn't independent of Gregtech. Without Gregtech's storage block recipes, there would be no dupe glitch.

Clearly, the solution to this whole debacle is just make it so you need the GT Industrial saw to uncraft storage blocks.

 

[Whovian]

If the config maintainer, be it the single player user or server operator, wants to configure such an exploit that is their choice and not for Greg to fix, much less force.

Forestry had, and has, a config option for its bronze, and according to Greg's actions Sengir has the "right" to start crashing the game anytime GregTech is loaded since it changes the bronze recipe without respecting the forestry configuration option.

You seem to not be understanding me. There was a dupe bug, and most agree that dupe bugs are problems for similar reasons modders don't add things like smelting recipes from 1 Ingot -> 2 Ingots. I didn't say modifying Forestry's recipe was the right way to go.