Exactly the point for all of these threads.
To borrow a little from another game:
"Nothing is [OP]. Everything is permitted."
EE3 is already broken!
- Thread starter XxXxBR1T15HxXxX
- Start date
-
The FTB Forum is now read-only, and is here as an archive. To participate in our community discussions, please join our Discord! https://ftb.team/discord
Exactly the point for all of these threads.
To borrow a little from another game:
"Nothing is [OP]. Everything is permitted."
The whole point of a free energy feedback loop would be to make it automated, otherwise what would be the point when you could just drop some hybrid solars and be done with it? Sure, you can feed netherrack into the system, but that requires some input on your part, either manual or via a quarry which could be used elsewhere.
That's the point, read carefully, for you. Doesn't have to be for me or anyone else. Not everyone's goal is to make minecraft automated.
You have failed to answer why it makes it useless. Who's forcing you to use a method that's overpowered?{redacted for name-calling} If there's an easier way you must do it?
Also what people think about something means nothing to the whole. User and author alike.
Keep it civil please -- JC
They made lava useless in boilers because even the mod devs thought it was op being able to use a product to produce itself with that much ease. Even for equivalent exchange the mod author thought most of the stuff in EE2 were too OP and thus removed them.
As for the automation, even if you don't want it fully automated you still wouldn't want to run a horribly inefficient system, especially when your using your free energy sources to run it. Let's say you're using netherrack in your system with the base electric engines which are 6 EU to 2 MJ, it takes 8000 MJ to make 18,000 MJ worth of lava, or 20k EU if burned in a geothermal generator. Ok, so to burn the netherrack with an input of 2 MJ would take 4000 ticks. Over those ticks you would be using 24000 EU. If you upgrade the engines to only use 5 EU for 2 MJ you still use 20k EU to get....20k EU worth of lava. This makes the whole system redundant outside of using Gregtech Thermal Generators and an effective energy loss when you can make the same system and use some of the lava made to power itself. With Magmatic engines one bucket of lava gives 18k MJ, for a net profit of 10k MJ worth of lava from the system.
So there, the system isn't fully automated and way more efficient than your silly system that throws energy down a hole.
As for EE, when I can effectively turn dirt into diamonds with fairly little input there's a problem. Sure, with other mods you can, say, turn coal into diamonds, but this takes 64 coal, 8 flint, one obsidian, and the power to make all the parts.
For ore dusts, this is actually fairly realistic. Ore in general has a low amount of the substance within it, and just smelting it inefficiently won't get all of the possible metal out of the ore and it'll be fairly low quality, especially when smelted at very low temperatures. By grinding the ore you can more easily separate the ore dust that you want from the impurities. This works much like a sluice box does for panning gold. Heck, that's why gregtech's grinder actually has water involved.
As for the automation, even if you don't want it fully automated you still wouldn't want to run a horribly inefficient system, especially when your using your free energy sources to run it. Let's say you're using netherrack in your system with the base electric engines which are 6 EU to 2 MJ, it takes 8000 MJ to make 18,000 MJ worth of lava, or 20k EU if burned in a geothermal generator. Ok, so to burn the netherrack with an input of 2 MJ would take 4000 ticks. Over those ticks you would be using 24000 EU. If you upgrade the engines to only use 5 EU for 2 MJ you still use 20k EU to get....20k EU worth of lava. This makes the whole system redundant outside of using Gregtech Thermal Generators and an effective energy loss when you can make the same system and use some of the lava made to power itself. With Magmatic engines one bucket of lava gives 18k MJ, for a net profit of 10k MJ worth of lava from the system.
So there, the system isn't fully automated and way more efficient than your silly system that throws energy down a hole.
As for EE, when I can effectively turn dirt into diamonds with fairly little input there's a problem. Sure, with other mods you can, say, turn coal into diamonds, but this takes 64 coal, 8 flint, one obsidian, and the power to make all the parts.
For ore dusts, this is actually fairly realistic. Ore in general has a low amount of the substance within it, and just smelting it inefficiently won't get all of the possible metal out of the ore and it'll be fairly low quality, especially when smelted at very low temperatures. By grinding the ore you can more easily separate the ore dust that you want from the impurities. This works much like a sluice box does for panning gold. Heck, that's why gregtech's grinder actually has water involved.
The opinions of mod devs mean nothing. If they make a one way nerf to something they are immediately worse at making mods because they assume their ideas of balance are universal and should be employed no matter what. You guys are turning me into a broken record.
Not everyone that plays is playing for fucking efficiency. Christ's sake why is that so hard to understand? What's stopping me from going in the configs and making lava worth 50k MJ? Making nether melt at 2k? The sense of how I want to play the game. No one else. If you want it different you can change it yourself. That's the reason I said I like what Lemming has done and made his changes alter-able. Same with Pahi. My Minium stone has 60000 uses right now. Problem? Not for me. There isn't any imbalance in it as far as I'm concerned.
For you there might be. For me and, as I would imagine, many others it was an enjoyable sight to see. Not only that I personally was able to feel just as much a sense of accomplishment from EE2 as any other "hardcore" mod there is now. Perhaps more because it was easier.
Again with the broken record.
Logic does not apply to minecraft unless you personally want to apply it.
Just because a majority of you want to play the game a certain way doesn't mean you have to ruin the way the rest of us want to play it. Or are all of you so self-absorbed to think that if you don't play the way you guys think is "balanced" you're playing wrong and shouldn't play at all?
All I'm getting from your ranting is that you want to get stuff easily and screw what the authors think about how the mod should be balanced. At that point, why not just play in creative since that's what it seems like you want to do.
I do. Quite often I might add.
That's really neither here nor there because you are simply solidifying the idea that most that play FTB are conceded and that anyone who wants to play the game at an easier level shouldn't even play. And really if it's at that point this project doesn't deserve to be continued.
Actually, no it isn't. I can use the same logic. Liquids with different densities don't mix. This is evident with vinegar and vegetable oil based salad dressings, or if you try to mix oil and water. If you leave the solution long enough, eventually the liquids will separate. This is scientific Principle, which you should have learned in elementary school , is exactly what real life blacksmiths have been using for centuries. They smelt down their ores and then let the impurities form a layer, which they can more easily remove. One could assume this same process happens in a vanilla furnace, so again 1 ore = 1 ingot, which is how the game was made. This invalidates everything you said and makes all mods that give you 2 or 3 dusts per ore that each turn into ingots OP.
You won't agree with me because you like it. Everything you like is logical and fine, and everything you don't like is OP and needs to be balanced? No. It is the way it is. Stop whining about things you think are OP and trying to push your ideals of 'balance' on others. Play the damn game the way you want to play it and let others play it the way they want to play it. If you don't like something, don't use it or modify the configs to your liking. That's what the config files are there for.
There's a distinct difference between getting stuff easily and getting it practically for free as you're putting forward. When you're effectively saying screw what the mod author thinks about any semblance of balance and set up your configs so the stuff you use has no effective use limit you are, effectively, playing in creative mode. If you feel that survival mode needs to be trivialized even more than the mods already make it then, as I said you should probably stick to creative. I'm sorry, but survival mode shouldn't be turned into creative + hunger.
And it's conceited.
@dex IAs for the separation of metals in a furnace, it would indeed need to be at least a blast furnace to separate most metals from each other or from ore. Most metals melt at temperatures that you just normally wouldn't see in a tiny furnace and require a large amount of time and effort. The next best thing, then would be to grind the ore and try to wash off the heavier metals to try and get a sand that has a higher content per square inch. This would lower impurities at lower temperature smelts and make it relatively easier to heat up the dust.
That said, I do think the dusting process is still fairly inefficient compared to smelting the ore in a proper blast furnace or something even better, but it would have to be better than just sticking an ore in what amounts to a coal fired stove.
And it's conceited.
@dex IAs for the separation of metals in a furnace, it would indeed need to be at least a blast furnace to separate most metals from each other or from ore. Most metals melt at temperatures that you just normally wouldn't see in a tiny furnace and require a large amount of time and effort. The next best thing, then would be to grind the ore and try to wash off the heavier metals to try and get a sand that has a higher content per square inch. This would lower impurities at lower temperature smelts and make it relatively easier to heat up the dust.
That said, I do think the dusting process is still fairly inefficient compared to smelting the ore in a proper blast furnace or something even better, but it would have to be better than just sticking an ore in what amounts to a coal fired stove.
There's a difference for you. For fucks sake how many times must that be said? I can get a sense of accomplishment from putting to sticks into a crafting table and getting a diamond. You know what you can do about it? Nothing.
It does not, never will, and never can matter how you feel about what the game should be and that goes for the authors. The only job an author should have is to create the ideas give a middle ground base and the leave it completely up to users how the mod is balanced. Not to mention who the fuck are you to say it shouldn't be more trivialized? Why is it wrong for me to feel the way the mods are now is tedious? What's wrong about wanting to play for a short amount of time and being able to achieve later game things. Not everyone wants to play on the same game for 4 months at a time working towards one goal.
Oh and sorry for mixing up two words that could easily be understood what was meant from the context.
Now hold on a second, I thought the idea behind FTB was easy distribution of the mods that play well together (mainly), not balance. Balance shouldn't even be considered important (for me). Mods can exist outside FTB and people play this way. If they were nerfed for the sake of pack balance, they would be pretty crap when stand-alone.
And another thing, not all people that play FTB are hardcore mod players. Yes, I want to acquire stuff easily, I also play vanilla MC in Easy. And I know I'm not alone in this. All of the hardcore players that know what they're doing, they can just select the more difficult options. Just as you don't go and cheat let's say a mining laser, you can just as easily not use the "easy" mechanisms...
And another thing, not all people that play FTB are hardcore mod players. Yes, I want to acquire stuff easily, I also play vanilla MC in Easy. And I know I'm not alone in this. All of the hardcore players that know what they're doing, they can just select the more difficult options. Just as you don't go and cheat let's say a mining laser, you can just as easily not use the "easy" mechanisms...
That's YOUR prerogative. If I want to switch back and forth between modes, or enjoy the mods the way they are now, that is MINE. You have no right to effectively force YOUR idea of balance, which is probably much different for each individual, onto everyone. The only people that have the right to do that are the authors themselves. It's their mod, their creation. They can mold it to whatever vision they have of it. My ONLY decision is whether I agree with their vision and therefor use the mod or not. Same applies to you.
You're lucky that most authors have added config files, which allow for some customizability, so you can have the mod author's vision more closely resemble your own. You do not get to decide what's balanced and what isn't for everyone else. You can only decide that for yourself in your own world.
You aren't a mod author as far as I know. Not the author of the mod in question anyways, so you have no right to decide what the mod authors think or want. Who are you to speak for them? They made the mod this way, so obviously they don't agree with your point of view.
Apparently, people don't understand this.
Idea of (new) FTB is distribution of modpacks, not mods.
Modpacks that aim at different auditories and playstiles. Some modpacks (MindCrack) value balance, some (BronyPack, probably "ultimate" pack too) doesn't.
If EE is supposed to be used in balance-conscious packs, it should be balanced with other mods that are expected to be used in that pack. Or - have some way to make it balanced, with config or something.
Which is the problem since mods now are just changing their core rather than just giving a way for people to change it.
Did you miss where Hoff said:
and
I would think, you know, that means that he doesn't even care about what the mod devs think about about their own mod's balance. Now, I don't know what you would make of those statements, but all I can get from them is he's saying screw what the mod authors think about balance, I'll play it how I want. That's very different from playing the mod as the devs balanced it. Yes, I don't use EE3 because as it is I feel that it's too powerful, but he's saying he wants to go a step further and make it even more powerful.
Also, I would think that if the mod has settings set to default, that would be the dev's intent for the mod. What he is stating is to change all those values haphazardly so you get tons more power/uses for the stuff in the mods which breaks any semblance of balance. Yes, he doesn't HAVE to play it balanced, but to change the values as much as he suggests makes survival inextinguishable from creative as it will trivialize everything even more than the mods already do.
So what? If he wants to do that for HIS game, what business is if of yours? Similarly, If you want MORE balance, your option is to do the same and change your own config files to reflect your own ideals.
I do not want to play under Hoffs or your ideals of what balance is. You don't seem to understand that you have no right to push your own ideal of what balance is to you onto everyone. As I and everyone else has been telling you: Play the damn game the way YOU want, and stop whining and let everyone else play the game they want to play it.
And what's your problem with that? Why shouldn't I be able to? Not to mention it's a freaking hyperbole. All values in between absolute hardcore and absolute easy mode are all valid as well. None are any better than the others as a whole. Opinions of the levels should not be formed into an average to create an absolute game. It should be flexible.
Also for the last time, there is no universal balance. It may break balance in your opinion for how you play or for the author for how he plays or anyone else but it doesn't for me.
If it broke what the author intended, then either they wouldn't have made it that way in the first place or they'd release an update to change it.