EE3 is already broken!
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The whole point was him asking why no one said making lava from his highly ineffective setup was OP, me pointing out the numbers of why such a setup is FAR from OP, and then him saying he'll just change the numbers to make it OP. That's what effectively started this part of the convo, him asking people why they don't think something that is not OP is not OP. It's not "pushing my ideal of balance," it's stating that the mods were already balanced as they were.
The problem is that you're using "=" as if they're truly equal. It's one way processes we're talking about, we can't just substitute stuff in.
EQUIVALENCE is a completely different matter, and a matter of opinion. I won't get involved in arguing about what's equivalent to what, but the fact still stands that two things being equivalent doesn't make them interchangeable.
Just to explain my personal opinion, a setup of maximum efficiency converts ore into literally infinite ingots. Therefore, all ore processing methods are terribly inefficient, and it's just a matter of which are less inefficient.
Another matter of my opinion is that while the fundamentals of FTB and MC are pretty much the same, FTB, otherwise, should be considered a completely different game and, thus, saying that something's OP by saying you can't do it in vanilla (such as getting 2 or 3 Ingots from one Ore) is an invalid argument.
Note that, again, the above two paragraphs are personal opinion.
Can I just sneak one more idea into this discussion?
We really can't just go, willy nilly, into the configs and change everything. Part of what makes minecraft so amazing is the community.
You've seen some of the amazing things that the vanilla mode has produced when so many people get together and work on something together, right? Part of that is because everybody can just pick up what other people did and use it themselves, and then try to improve it.
If we all splinter to 10,000 changed config settings then it becomes rather hard for any of us to know if the project that our friend is so proud of working on would even work for ourselves.
This is one of the reasons that trying to agree, as a community of individualists, on anything is so important.
So please, I know we all like to be right, but we also have to listen to eachother, don't we?
We really can't just go, willy nilly, into the configs and change everything. Part of what makes minecraft so amazing is the community.
You've seen some of the amazing things that the vanilla mode has produced when so many people get together and work on something together, right? Part of that is because everybody can just pick up what other people did and use it themselves, and then try to improve it.
If we all splinter to 10,000 changed config settings then it becomes rather hard for any of us to know if the project that our friend is so proud of working on would even work for ourselves.
This is one of the reasons that trying to agree, as a community of individualists, on anything is so important.
So please, I know we all like to be right, but we also have to listen to eachother, don't we?
I guess most of the reason I disagree is I never cared for the community at all. I don't build things other people have already built(At least not intentionally) nor do I really care what other people have accomplished in the game. Then again it is a very valid way and reason to play the game and if people want to come together to create a staple way to play the game for that reason, more power to them, but that does not mean we must all listen to each other and play that way.
Perfectly said.
This is exactly why I hate the argument "If you don't like it, just disable it in the launcher." as a method of avoiding having to actually respond to a point. It makes us all look like fools, and defeats the purpose of this entire forum.
They are, but some people don't like the changes that were made, which is why they should change it to something they do like for themselves instead of trying to affect everyone else's game.
Right, I don't like something. For reasons I would attempt to explain. I don't understand what you are getting at here. My conception of what this forum is primarily for is as follows:
I don't like mod/feature X.
You do like mod/feature X.
We discuss it.
Then one of three things can happen:
A) It becomes clear that something is broken/OP/Bugged/being abused/Imbalanced/whatever, then we have succeeded in bringing attention of this issue to the makers of FTB. They will make a decision about what to do.
B) It becomes clear that that specific something is actually an intended and misunderstood feature, then we have succeeded in bringing it to the attention of players who have otherwise had problems with it.
C) It remains a topic of contention for a long time, with no obvious outcome. (like the endless greg-tech debates) The FTB makers say "Thanks for the input, we'll think about this." and lock the now useless thread. But we have succeeded in letting them know that it is a "hot-topic".
If we allow the liberal use of the "If you don't like it, just disable it in the launcher." argument then this process happens:
I don't like mod/feature X.
You do like mod/feature X.
You say "If you don't like it, just disable it in the launcher."
Then nothing happens, and we now have a useless forum.
Do you understand what I am getting at?
"The way things are, is just the way things are. Get used to it." Is not an argument. It's a cop-out. You might like how things are. That's great. Represent that side of the argument! Don't just dismiss the argument. Why are we not allowed to discuss it rationally?
Saying "If you don't like it, just disable it in the launcher." doesn't help your side or my side. It just kills the debate. Pointlessly.
No. This thread is more like:
1) Some idiot abuses some mechanic of a mod, then creates a thread about how his abuse of the mod makes it overpowered, and proceeds to bitch about how it's over powered for page after page.
2) Other users say "No we like it just the way it is. You're the idiot that chose to abuse the mod. We shouldn't have to conform to your ideals of 'balance' because you have no self-control?"
I wasn't referring to this thread specifically, I was referring to the forum as a whole, and what you thought the point of this forum was.
Furthermore, the person who started this thread, that you childishly call an idiot, wasn't abusing the mod. He was playing the game. Being able to dupe items is not an intended feature. It is an oversight due to different mods not reacting well to each other. He was simply pointing out this flaw. He posted helpful pictures and everything. This is not detrimental to the mod in any way. It is constructive criticism.
I understand that you like this game. Good for you. We like this game too. That doesn't mean you have to ignore its many flaws. We point out flaws because we like this game.
Finally, no one is asking you to conform to anyone's idea of anything. We are trying to talk, rationally, about the balance of a mod that will eventually be a huge part of FTB. We are not dictating policy, we are discussing options. You don't like a proposal, say why you don't like it. If your whole argument is "This is the way it is, and I don't want it to change."... then sorry, but you have no argument at all.
Actually that's a perfectly fine argument because it means the mechanics work fine intended or not. That means that there are those that enjoy these mechanics and a way to leave them as is should be available even if changes are made for others.
So, as far as I can tell, the last three pages were people arguing for or against balance based on personal opinion, correct?
That's actually the issue though, personal opinion. I believe the changes to EE2/3 actually came about due to Thaumcraft 2. After seeing a mod that did extremely similar things also be very balanced, he decided to start from scratch. We haven't even seen over half of the mod yet, basically the minium stone recipe we do have is just there so it can be tested, there will actually be a lot of effort needed to make one.
Oh, just a reminder to people, not making a choice is still a choice, and not wanting something to change is still an argument.
That said, I think it might be better to flesh out both sides of this debate a little better. What we really have here is a debate of Fun vs Challenge.
Now, the arguers of the side of fun see this as a personal choice, and they are right. Even now, mods are making easy/moderate/modes, alternate recipe versions, even more configuration changes. Now, as people see EE3 and then see the author changing recipes to 'balance' them, they argue this is not an intelligent decision. I actually would somewhat agree, the change should be added, but allow a config option to use the old-mode. I think that would settle both sides? Now, as a coder, I can say that sometimes to add in specific functionality, you have to change the core mechanics. The EE dev has already stated that getting the stone will not be easy, and he does not intend it to be easy. He's trying to create as close to as possible the system of alchemy (As seen in history, not in Anime) into the game, at least as far as making the stones. Now, where the balancing act comes in is allowing transmutes...which leads to...
The Challenge side. This group actually rarely sets configs for personal use, they prefer to use a 'common' set of configs. This adds a certain bar to get over for specific things. That is where the balance argument comes from, is that community. They are worried that EE2 imbalance will once again be the bane of server admins. Now, to explain it for the fun crowd, it's not the 'something for nothing' mechanic specifically, it's the ability to skip almost all of the tech mods and simply get the best of the best with just a red-matter furnace that could be achieved very quickly in terms of things. I think it was this ability alone which made the game into EMC races. While a house of diamond blocks may be fun, the challenge group probably would not be very fulfilled by it.
Although, I will say, this thread is actually very humorous from the angle above, because of the inescapable truth. You're actually all correct.
Just remember though, It's beta. Expect features here today to be gone tomorrow, major mechanic changes, or scrapped in an instant. Judging it by fun or challenge currently is asking for disappointment down the road.
That's actually the issue though, personal opinion. I believe the changes to EE2/3 actually came about due to Thaumcraft 2. After seeing a mod that did extremely similar things also be very balanced, he decided to start from scratch. We haven't even seen over half of the mod yet, basically the minium stone recipe we do have is just there so it can be tested, there will actually be a lot of effort needed to make one.
Oh, just a reminder to people, not making a choice is still a choice, and not wanting something to change is still an argument.
That said, I think it might be better to flesh out both sides of this debate a little better. What we really have here is a debate of Fun vs Challenge.
Now, the arguers of the side of fun see this as a personal choice, and they are right. Even now, mods are making easy/moderate/modes, alternate recipe versions, even more configuration changes. Now, as people see EE3 and then see the author changing recipes to 'balance' them, they argue this is not an intelligent decision. I actually would somewhat agree, the change should be added, but allow a config option to use the old-mode. I think that would settle both sides? Now, as a coder, I can say that sometimes to add in specific functionality, you have to change the core mechanics. The EE dev has already stated that getting the stone will not be easy, and he does not intend it to be easy. He's trying to create as close to as possible the system of alchemy (As seen in history, not in Anime) into the game, at least as far as making the stones. Now, where the balancing act comes in is allowing transmutes...which leads to...
The Challenge side. This group actually rarely sets configs for personal use, they prefer to use a 'common' set of configs. This adds a certain bar to get over for specific things. That is where the balance argument comes from, is that community. They are worried that EE2 imbalance will once again be the bane of server admins. Now, to explain it for the fun crowd, it's not the 'something for nothing' mechanic specifically, it's the ability to skip almost all of the tech mods and simply get the best of the best with just a red-matter furnace that could be achieved very quickly in terms of things. I think it was this ability alone which made the game into EMC races. While a house of diamond blocks may be fun, the challenge group probably would not be very fulfilled by it.
Although, I will say, this thread is actually very humorous from the angle above, because of the inescapable truth. You're actually all correct.
Just remember though, It's beta. Expect features here today to be gone tomorrow, major mechanic changes, or scrapped in an instant. Judging it by fun or challenge currently is asking for disappointment down the road.
1) equivalent exchange from tekkit was FAR more broken. Being able to quickly duplicate almost any basic item for free was way too easy.
2) Being able to pulverize and recraft bonemeal and blazerods isn't all that powerful at all. I appreciate finding and using little loopholes and combos in the modpack. To me it's almost the same thing as combining machines from multiple mods and buildcraft pipes to create impressive factories of autosorting, autosmelting, autocrafting awesomeness. We aren't here, playing these modpacks, to do things the vanilla minecraft way. We are using these mods to do more impressive things, do things differently, and to find ways to improve our minecraft experience.
3) and for the record I think we should have more stuff like EE3 and less stuff like gregtech's recipe nerfing. And more stuff like thaumcraft and twilight forest and mystcraft. All of which I feel fill in huge gaps in the player capabilities and help the player fix problems. For example, one of the huge gaps in minecraft is armor cheaper than iron or leather. Why can't we make wooden or stone armor to protect ourselves while waiting for iron to be plentiful. If you start playing by going heavy IndstrialCraft you'll never want to use iron for armor because you need it for all your machines. Leather is too valuable for books for the enchantment table bookcases. Mystcraft and twilight forest also help you with finding resources from biomes you aren't close to.
2) Being able to pulverize and recraft bonemeal and blazerods isn't all that powerful at all. I appreciate finding and using little loopholes and combos in the modpack. To me it's almost the same thing as combining machines from multiple mods and buildcraft pipes to create impressive factories of autosorting, autosmelting, autocrafting awesomeness. We aren't here, playing these modpacks, to do things the vanilla minecraft way. We are using these mods to do more impressive things, do things differently, and to find ways to improve our minecraft experience.
3) and for the record I think we should have more stuff like EE3 and less stuff like gregtech's recipe nerfing. And more stuff like thaumcraft and twilight forest and mystcraft. All of which I feel fill in huge gaps in the player capabilities and help the player fix problems. For example, one of the huge gaps in minecraft is armor cheaper than iron or leather. Why can't we make wooden or stone armor to protect ourselves while waiting for iron to be plentiful. If you start playing by going heavy IndstrialCraft you'll never want to use iron for armor because you need it for all your machines. Leather is too valuable for books for the enchantment table bookcases. Mystcraft and twilight forest also help you with finding resources from biomes you aren't close to.
Regarding the bone meal and blaze rods, it's actually a bit stronger than you might suspect. Bone meal can be used in a Steve's Carts farm to increase growth speed, and blaze rods can be electrolyzed into coal dust, which can be used to make diamonds. Now yes, you can get these same things by doing a blaze and skeleton farmer respectively via the soul shards mod, but it takes a bit more work than an auto-crafting loop.
The biggest balance issue I see though is the 4 stacks of wood (mentioned dirt earlier, was wrong) for a diamond. With the mod by itself, it's probably not too horrible, but with Steve's Carts or a Forestry tree farm it trivializes making diamonds. Now yes, you can also easily make diamonds from coal, but it's not as easily done, which is my major concern with EE3 right now. There are other methods of making diamonds fairly easily as well by mixing and matching different mods - iirc with gregtech you can get electrum from centrifuging lava, which can give you gold and silver, and 4 gold = 1 diamond with ee3.
Those are my major concerns with EE3 at the current time, which is why I personally choose not to use it in its current stage, even if I could really use those ender pearls it can make.
The biggest balance issue I see though is the 4 stacks of wood (mentioned dirt earlier, was wrong) for a diamond. With the mod by itself, it's probably not too horrible, but with Steve's Carts or a Forestry tree farm it trivializes making diamonds. Now yes, you can also easily make diamonds from coal, but it's not as easily done, which is my major concern with EE3 right now. There are other methods of making diamonds fairly easily as well by mixing and matching different mods - iirc with gregtech you can get electrum from centrifuging lava, which can give you gold and silver, and 4 gold = 1 diamond with ee3.
Those are my major concerns with EE3 at the current time, which is why I personally choose not to use it in its current stage, even if I could really use those ender pearls it can make.
Then quite simply; it's not a problem with the mod. It's simply a mod you do not like at the very basic level. Just because it's there doesn't mean you have to use it. Just because other people are using doesn't mean you have to. Disabled or not it can still be there and you not use it.
Don't get me wrong, I actually want to use it to some extent, just not in its current state. There's still some work that needs to be done on it, hence why it's still alpha.
I mean at the very core of the mod it seems you dislike what it does. The entire principle of the mod is making materials easily change-able. It may take awhile to change upward but it can be done still fairly easily. Truly that's what is the basis of the mod, or at least what it originally was. If being able to easily make other things into diamonds or gold or iron or anything else seems wrong then it's a fundamental flaw with the mod for your playstyle. Again though you could just opt not to use the ability to change into metals/gems or change the state of metals/gems or only do some of them as you deem fit. For example in DW20's season 4 LP he used EE2 but only used it when he felt not using it simply added tedium to the game.