EE3 is already broken!

[Whovian]

What says the magic isn't making it more efficient? We are talking about scientific magic here. Not to mention saying it is more efficient is simply a way of explaining why it creates something from nothing.

If it truly did create something from nothing, we'd be able to repeat the experiment. It's just a processing method, since we can't redo this without constantly mining out more ore.

Another way to think of it might be that the Ore acts as the catalyst necessary to induce the production of dust. Okay, not the catalyst, since it gets used up in the reaction. The point is, since we can't macerate Dust into 2 Dust, we need to constantly supply it with more Ore, so it's not just energy we're processing.

Unless, of course, we're using UUM to produce our Ore. But UUM takes lots of energy to produce.

 

[Hoff]

If it truly did create something from nothing, we'd be able to repeat the experiment. It's just a processing method, since we can't redo this without constantly mining out more ore.

Another way to think of it might be that the Ore acts as the catalyst necessary to induce the production of dust. Okay, not the catalyst, since it gets used up in the reaction. The point is, since we can't macerate Dust into 2 Dust, we need to constantly supply it with more Ore, so it's not just energy we're processing.

Unless, of course, we're using UUM to produce our Ore. But UUM takes lots of energy to produce.

Just because you need a catalyst(Minium/philo stone, red water, etc.) to produce something from nothing doesn't mean you're still not creating something from nothing. I don't mean this in a realistic manner by the way. Totally in-game you would never get that second ore in vanilla because it simply does not exist.

 

[Whovian]

Just because you need a catalyst(Minium/philo stone, red water, etc.) to produce something from nothing doesn't mean you're still not creating something from nothing.

If the "catalyst's" (quotes since it's not really a catalyst) used up, then, in fact, it does. We're talking about

Energy + Ore -> 2 Ingots

instead of

Ore -> 1 Ingot

Since 1/8 Coal isn't too much, I ignored that cost in the Vanilla processing.

Now, one could "substitute" the second into the first and "subtract" to get

Energy -> 1 Ingot

But, this isn't equations we're talking about, these are one-way, irreversible processes.

 

[Hoff]

If the "catalyst's" (quotes since it's not really a catalyst) used up, then, in fact, it does. We're talking about

Energy + Ore -> 2 Ingots

instead of

Ore -> 1 Ingot

Since 1/8 Coal isn't too much, I ignored that cost in the Vanilla processing.

Now, one could "substitute" the second into the first and "subtract" to get

Energy -> 1 Ingot

But, this isn't equations we're talking about, these are one-way, irreversible processes.

They're only irreversible in the real world. We're dealing magic here not realism. Again it comes down to what each individual considers acceptable. Should changing back take the maximum possible with mods because that means it's using the maximum amount of the resource or use what you can normally get out of it because the rest is considered unusable scrap and is discarded by the game? There's no real universal answer to this even if Pahi himself thinks there is.

 

[eculc]

They're only irreversible in the real world. We're dealing magic here not realism.

And yet, that's exactly what they are - Irreversible processes. you can't turn one material into energy and back without adding something else -- even in the case of blaze rods, you need to supply the energy for maceration, as well as the initial cost of creating a generator and macerator.

 

[Hoff]

And yet, that's exactly what they are - Irreversible processes. you can't turn one material into energy and back without adding something else -- even in the case of blaze rods, you need to supply the energy for maceration, as well as the initial cost of creating a generator and macerator.

Again magic vs real world logic. Logic does not apply here unless you want it to.

 

[eculc]

Again magic vs real world logic. Logic does not apply here unless you want it to.

Well, in this case "real world logic" does apply. It doesn't have to necessarily, but that's not up to us to decide, it's up to the mod makers.

 

[Hoff]

Well, in this case "real world logic" does apply. It doesn't have to necessarily, but that's not up to us to decide, it's up to the mod makers.

No it doesn't. It really shouldn't even be up to them if they're half decent mod makers. They should leave the option open to everyone that uses their mod because they ought to realize what they see as valid isn't the same view as everyone.

 

[Dex Luther]

About the ore, it's better efficiency we're talking about. We're not talking about doubling ores, we're talking about doubling (or tripling in the case of Factorization) ore output, thus simply increasing the efficiency of ore processing instead of converting energy into matter. So the basis is more energy -> efficiency.

Doubling ore output is exactly what Hoff said.

1 ore = 1 Ingot in vanilla, so 1 ore = 2 dusts = 2 ingots is essentially converting energy into matter to get that second dust that appeared out of nowhere.

 

[TheLoneWolfling]

Doubling ore output is exactly what Hoff said.

1 ore = 1 Ingot in vanilla, so 1 ore = 2 dusts = 2 ingots is essentially converting energy into matter to get that second dust that appeared out of nowhere.

So what you're saying is that vanilla ore processing has 100% efficiency?

Sorry, but that's not true.

 

[Dex Luther]

So what you're saying is that vanilla ore processing has 100% efficiency?

Sorry, but that's not true.

Actually, it does. That's how the game was created. That's how it's supposed to be, which is why there are many people that consider most of the mods as cheats or just cheap.

1 Ore = 1 Ingot at the cost of a certain amount of coal is 100% efficiency because that's the way the game was made. End of story.

You can try to rationalize it however you want, but you're still wrong.

 

[TheLoneWolfling]

You can try to rationalize it however you want, but you're still wrong.

In which case this is no longer a discussion, but a statement of belief.

Or, if this is in fact a discussion, read on.

By that definition using a pickaxe on stone breaks the same rules - if you punch stone, you don't get the stone. Therefore, if you break stone with a pickaxe, you are getting something out of nowhere (assuming you are using a stone or wooden pickaxe, that is.)

Also, consider that you are posting that vanilla is the way things are supposed to be on a forum about a modpack. Are you opposed to IC2 changing the blast resistance of obsidian, or RP2's mechanics with mossy cobblestone? Both of these change vanilla mechanics. For that matter, so does UU-Matter (water in the nether), all modded furnace equivalents (getting more smelts per coal), et cetera. If you want vanilla, play vanilla.

IC2's macerator mechanics have been discussed before - the reason is that one requires much more iron in IC2 than in the base game, and so it was added to ease the tedium of mining.

 

[Hoff]

In which case this is no longer a discussion, but a statement of belief.

Or, if this is in fact a discussion, read on.

By that definition using a pickaxe on stone breaks the same rules - if you punch stone, you don't get the stone. Therefore, if you break stone with a pickaxe, you are getting something out of nowhere (assuming you are using a stone or wooden pickaxe, that is.)

Also, consider that you are posting that vanilla is the way things are supposed to be on a forum about a modpack. Are you opposed to IC2 changing the blast resistance of obsidian, or RP2's mechanics with mossy cobblestone? Both of these change vanilla mechanics. For that matter, so does UU-Matter (water in the nether), all modded furnace equivalents (getting more smelts per coal), et cetera. If you want vanilla, play vanilla.

IC2's macerator mechanics have been discussed before - the reason is that one requires much more iron in IC2 than in the base game, and so it was added to ease the tedium of mining.

Are you arguing just about the thing about it making something from nothing or are you arguing with actual relevance to the topic? I made that point to show that it wasn't just EE that creates things that weren't there before and it's simply that the commonly used things that do it are justified or people feel that such is logical. As I said before though; there doesn't have to be logic here unless you want it.

Also this isn't a discussion about that but about the viability of EE which comes down to personal "belief".

 

[Dex Luther]

In which case this is no longer a discussion, but a statement of belief.

Or, if this is in fact a discussion, read on.

By that definition using a pickaxe on stone breaks the same rules - if you punch stone, you don't get the stone. Therefore, if you break stone with a pickaxe, you are getting something out of nowhere (assuming you are using a stone or wooden pickaxe, that is.)

Also, consider that you are posting that vanilla is the way things are supposed to be on a forum about a modpack. Are you opposed to IC2 changing the blast resistance of obsidian, or RP2's mechanics with mossy cobblestone? Both of these change vanilla mechanics. For that matter, so does UU-Matter (water in the nether), all modded furnace equivalents (getting more smelts per coal), et cetera. If you want vanilla, play vanilla.

IC2's macerator mechanics have been discussed before - the reason is that one requires much more iron in IC2 than in the base game, and so it was added to ease the tedium of mining.

I'm not opposed to anything. Just pointing out the flaw in your logic.
It's ok for mods like IC2, TE, etc to turn energy into matter to double your ore output, but it isn't ok for EE to do the same?

Don't like the way EE does it? Don't use it. Threads like this where some person abuses mechanics in a mod and then complains about it are useless. Abusing a mod or not is the responsibility of the player and the player alone.

 

[Tylor]

Balance of RP/IC/BC is hinged on irreversibility of convertions. You can't convert metal back to ore, or uranium back to ingot, so you can have different ways of converting things without breaking game balance,
When there is even a small case of reversible convertions (like energy back to lava), you start to have short circuits with surplus over the place.
Throw in possibility to turn anything into everything, and you have exponential growth without touching 95% of modpack content.

 

[Hoff]

Balance of RP/IC/BC is hinged on irreversibility of convertions. You can't convert metal back to ore, or uranium back to ingot, so you can have different ways of converting things without breaking game balance,
When there is even a small case of reversible convertions (like energy back to lava), you start to have short circuits with surplus over the place.
Throw in possibility to turn anything into everything, and you have exponential growth without touching 95% of modpack content.

I won't even get into the idea of "balance" since it seems to be worthless thing to point out with the members of this forum but why then do I not hear people screaming OP when you can make infinite free lava with TE's machine + solar panels w/ Electric engines?

And despite knowing I shouldn't get into it; balance of every mod on MC hinges on what you personally see as balanced.

 

[Chocorate]

If you dont want to exploit than dont do it. so simple as that it is. I hate it when the modders then change their mod (atm im talking about iChun cause its something which annoys me) cause some ppl tell him its to overpowerd,
what in the world does overpowerd even mean? If i want my mod to be like it is than i dont change it.

All my thoughts. I don't see why people have to change a mod that they don't have to use.

 

[Daemonblue]

I won't even get into the idea of "balance" since it seems to be worthless thing to point out with the members of this forum but why then do I not hear people screaming OP when you can make infinite free lava with TE's machine + solar panels w/ Electric engines?

And despite knowing I shouldn't get into it; balance of every mod on MC hinges on what you personally see as balanced.

So make infinite lava at a massive energy loss? Yea, that's very op. Let's see, we'll go with the base electric engine, so 6eu/t for 2 mj/t, you need 20k mj per cobble to turn it into lava, and at a max of 20 mj/t for full speed, that means 10 engines burning 60 eu/t for 20 mj/t. The 20k MJ required only produces 18k MJ worth of lava, so you'd lose 2k mj if that's what you wanted. Burning the lava in a geothermal generator would produce 20k eu, but it took 60k eu to produce it.

So where's the op part with your setup?

 

[Tylor]

When boiler accepted lava, you could make more lava than you spent. It was OP, so it was fixed.

 

[Hoff]

So make infinite lava at a massive energy loss? Yea, that's very op. Let's see, we'll go with the base electric engine, so 6eu/t for 2 mj/t, you need 20k mj per cobble to turn it into lava, and at a max of 20 mj/t for full speed, that means 10 engines burning 60 eu/t for 20 mj/t. The 20k MJ required only produces 18k MJ worth of lava, so you'd lose 2k mj if that's what you wanted. Burning the lava in a geothermal generator would produce 20k eu, but it took 60k eu to produce it.

So where's the op part with your setup?

Loss of free energy woo. Not to mention it doesn't take 20k MJ. Well if you use cobble like someone with downs sure. Oh and it's the idea of making a non-renewable product renewable.

@^ It wasn't OP for my play. What made it OP? Infinite energy? What makes that universally OP? Oh right; it doesn't. OP is different for every person that plays which is one of the reasons I like most of what lemming on GT do despite not liking their mods. They allow you to change what they've done to suit what you want to do because they understand that every single person that plays idea of balance is different. We're not playing this game together we're all playing by ourselves; SSP or SMP. Besides who was forcing you to use lava in the boiler? Why is it OP if you chose to use it?