I know that packs like infinity are often abysmal in terms of PVP, but kitchen sink packs are supposed to offer you a slice of everything.
Just imho.
Just imho.
Draconic Armor is broken OP
- Thread starter ax1m
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The problem is, when you try and balance with BOTH PvP and PvE in mind, one inevitably suffers. Where do you put the line as to what is needed for PvE and what is needed for PvP? Mobs generally don't have much, or any armor, meaning rapiers aren't generally as effective as say a cleaver or battleaxe. When it comes to PvP, most players (aside from when they just starting out) have at least iron-level armor, which means the armor peirce of a Rapier or a Crossbow becomes more attractive. This is the most basic example I can think of. But it's more complex than that. Say someone has deafeated the Gaia Guardian II and has got the Will of Verac on their Terrasteel Helm, which makes crits bypass armor. This suddendly makes rapiers less valuable to them (still useful as they consistantly bypass armor), and also improves the value of the Scimitar (Which gets an innate crit chance), or heavier hitting weapons.
That's actually a good idea. I'd like to see it if a mod adds an invincible armor, that a weapon is added that treats it like normal armor. Though, it could be a little boring that everyone would end up with the same armor and weapons... but then it could boil down to skill alone.
You know, always have a way around something in a mod that has stuff like that.
You know, always have a way around something in a mod that has stuff like that.
Except it would be batcrap exspensive, so only high end players could get it, everyone would always be using it, meaning a bland pvp experience.
If it was counteracteable at all, there would be diversity. Especially in that situation, I think. People would make that awesome armor, get owned by that sword, and switch over to something that can better resist the sword, and the sword is abandoned for something else. Ideally, we'd get a League of Legends like scenario where there'd be a flavor of the month "best option," when actually they are cyclically weak to each-other, like a giant game of rock-paper-scissors. I'd love it!
Better than no PvP experience.
Weck :V
I came back to FTB main packs trying infinity - not pvp orientated just general playing and progression with a couple (relative) newbies.
The wyvern stuff was cool, and fine. The energy storage was pretty awesome.
The moment we jumped to draconic within 20 minutes we collectively agreed the server was over, it was just pointless at htat point. The draconic staff of power mines a 9x9x9 INSTANTLY, pulling everything to you. It breaks everything. It hits a 27x27 area when attacking mobs for 20? damage. The draconic armour means you straight up will not die, you won't. Wyvern armour at least put you at risk (namely to chaos guardians)
I feel the mod isn't all awful, but the draconic upgrades and particularly the staff just break everything. It's more OP than EE2.
The wyvern stuff was cool, and fine. The energy storage was pretty awesome.
The moment we jumped to draconic within 20 minutes we collectively agreed the server was over, it was just pointless at htat point. The draconic staff of power mines a 9x9x9 INSTANTLY, pulling everything to you. It breaks everything. It hits a 27x27 area when attacking mobs for 20? damage. The draconic armour means you straight up will not die, you won't. Wyvern armour at least put you at risk (namely to chaos guardians)
I feel the mod isn't all awful, but the draconic upgrades and particularly the staff just break everything. It's more OP than EE2.
the thing I feel about Draconic Evolution... it's not overpowered, because it's balanced exactly as what they wanted it to be, but if you pair it with other mods, through a modpack for example, it just becomes really unbalanced compared to the other mods. it takes a bit of time to reach the draconic part of the modpack, but once you're there things become a whole lot easier. perhaps it'd have been better to have made Draconic an optional mod for servers.
on that part, I actually hoped Infinity would have been more of a modular kind of modpack, where you could choose between several pack composition, each with different mods enabled and disabled and with configuration changes, such as how Resonant Rise does it nowadays and how as Sevadus is planning on doing it, though it would probably require a whole lot more work to put together a pack like this, as you'd have to test each possible module combination
Except it doesn't really need other mod help to be noticeably stronger than other mods running separately - it just is.
Let's run through what you need:
A fair amount of gold/iron/diamonds - not really an issue even from vanilla. Any multi-mod environment under the sun these days includes at least ore doubling on top.
A ton of draconium - you won't need to leave the main ender island to make enough off mostly just the surface stuff to make a staff, then 'quarry' the island with your staff to make armor for flight a few minutes after
Energy - the only slight issue, but draconium armour/tools hardly eat huge amounts of RF for their affects, and if they were intended to use their own power system the text for the generator wouldn't be as it is. If it wanted to be special it could've been a unique energy source. This was by design intended for a multi-mod environment
Lots of nether stars - the only real pain here. automating wither killers isnt even an issue on vanilla, the only real grind compared to modpacks is the skulls, which are absolutely dreadful to grind and will take you many hours to get the amount of stars required.
A handful of tnt to awaken draconium - trivial
Killing the enderdragon - extremely easy with decent armour. I think people tend to get lost in how powerful enchanted diamond is (96%~ DR) because mods offer armour slightly earlier, or with more utility, or rechargeable. If you didn't have so many things in the mod packs requiring diamonds then diamond armour would at times be your best early-mid game option
Unlocking the end - annoying but not made significantly easier via mods generally anyway. Usually just tedious to find enough ender pearls to get to the end then you can kill (with your shiny armour and sword) or set up an enderman grinder once you're in
Nether - a lot safer and easier to get around than any multi-mod environment, generally.
Missed anything? Maybe. Point is the only huge difference is the nether stars, but you're simply adding a day or two (if you play for a few hours per day) of setting up a few killing grounds and going nuts with a looting III sword. It's fair to say the reason I got into modded minecraft was the vanilla game was over - sitting in enchanted diamond + having a fancy house or three - after about 24 hours ingame.
Now to compare to mod armour - sure most of them you can get in a similar timeframe, but they're all noticeably worse in at least 1 aspect.
Let's run through what you need:
A fair amount of gold/iron/diamonds - not really an issue even from vanilla. Any multi-mod environment under the sun these days includes at least ore doubling on top.
A ton of draconium - you won't need to leave the main ender island to make enough off mostly just the surface stuff to make a staff, then 'quarry' the island with your staff to make armor for flight a few minutes after
Energy - the only slight issue, but draconium armour/tools hardly eat huge amounts of RF for their affects, and if they were intended to use their own power system the text for the generator wouldn't be as it is. If it wanted to be special it could've been a unique energy source. This was by design intended for a multi-mod environment
Lots of nether stars - the only real pain here. automating wither killers isnt even an issue on vanilla, the only real grind compared to modpacks is the skulls, which are absolutely dreadful to grind and will take you many hours to get the amount of stars required.
A handful of tnt to awaken draconium - trivial
Killing the enderdragon - extremely easy with decent armour. I think people tend to get lost in how powerful enchanted diamond is (96%~ DR) because mods offer armour slightly earlier, or with more utility, or rechargeable. If you didn't have so many things in the mod packs requiring diamonds then diamond armour would at times be your best early-mid game option
Unlocking the end - annoying but not made significantly easier via mods generally anyway. Usually just tedious to find enough ender pearls to get to the end then you can kill (with your shiny armour and sword) or set up an enderman grinder once you're in
Nether - a lot safer and easier to get around than any multi-mod environment, generally.
Missed anything? Maybe. Point is the only huge difference is the nether stars, but you're simply adding a day or two (if you play for a few hours per day) of setting up a few killing grounds and going nuts with a looting III sword. It's fair to say the reason I got into modded minecraft was the vanilla game was over - sitting in enchanted diamond + having a fancy house or three - after about 24 hours ingame.
Now to compare to mod armour - sure most of them you can get in a similar timeframe, but they're all noticeably worse in at least 1 aspect.
Ah, the forbidden word, often abbreviated to two letters, O and P, lest the dark lord of Balance find out.
To put it simply, Person1.OP != Person2.OP.
At least not in a sandbox game.
Minecraft is not like many other games. While many other games has a more structured risk/reward system, Minecraft doesn't. It's built in such a way that people have a wide range of risk/reward systems. If you compared the balance of mods to the balance of Vanilla, almost all mods could be considered "OP".
In addition, look at the sheer diversity of the system. On one hand we have GT and TFC. On the other, we have Draconic Evolution and similar mods. OP is not objective when you are talking about a sandbox game. Therefore, I typically give a lecture similar to this one when I notice it crop up.
To put it simply, Person1.OP != Person2.OP.
At least not in a sandbox game.
Minecraft is not like many other games. While many other games has a more structured risk/reward system, Minecraft doesn't. It's built in such a way that people have a wide range of risk/reward systems. If you compared the balance of mods to the balance of Vanilla, almost all mods could be considered "OP".
In addition, look at the sheer diversity of the system. On one hand we have GT and TFC. On the other, we have Draconic Evolution and similar mods. OP is not objective when you are talking about a sandbox game. Therefore, I typically give a lecture similar to this one when I notice it crop up.
The Draconic Evolution endgame gear is stupidly horrifically brokenly overpowered... so what?
By the time you can make it you are building things "because you can", it is simply not possible from a resources standpoint to make it until late game, and when you do you'll run around giggling like a schoolgirl at how overpowered you are then you'll get on with that build you had planned in any case.
The Project E remake of the Gem armor is possibly worse, it allows you to survive void damage, though I didn't jump into the void in the Draconic Armor to test maybe it allows you to survive that too.
By the time you can make it you are building things "because you can", it is simply not possible from a resources standpoint to make it until late game, and when you do you'll run around giggling like a schoolgirl at how overpowered you are then you'll get on with that build you had planned in any case.
The Project E remake of the Gem armor is possibly worse, it allows you to survive void damage, though I didn't jump into the void in the Draconic Armor to test maybe it allows you to survive that too.
I personally disagree. It may just be semantics, however. I consider OP to be when an mod adds something that devalues a portion of the game to the point it may as well not exist. In this case, Invincible armor devalues combat so much, it may not exist. My definition is pretty specific, though. I only consider something OP if it kills another part of the game. In this case, balance can be purely objective through pure reasoning with that rule in mind. It allows for much variation, but lines do need to be drawn. Otherwise all the packs out there would be incomprehensible messes.
Going further, you speak as though sandbox games don't need to be painstakingly balanced. If you spent months designing a game about building demolition, and you have to build the strongest structures to resist trebuchets or something, and someone added in a building material that was not only invincible, but cheaper than other non-invincible top-tier materials, then you've got a whole section of game that might as well not exist.
Minecraft isn't really a true sandbox game anyway, unless you're playing in creative mode. And if you're doing that, then you already had cut the combat out of your life. It may be a viable way to play, but I don't believe that it "promotes diversity."
Because I think that it makes the game less fun overall. Especially in a multiplayer environment. in fact, none of the arguments I make are really intended to be interpreted through the eyes of SSP, as they are mostly based around player interactions, and how they might be affected. That's not to say that such things don't affect those in SSP, but just that it affects such players less.
I realize I may just be posting my ideology, and perhaps shoving it down your throats a bit hard, but balance in games is something I'm fairly passionate about.
Well, at least you recognize what you're doing.
Here's the issue. Pretty much any mod will kill off part of the game in vanilla. Quarries will kill off manual mining. Also, kill off a part of the game? That makes a lot of mods OP. Remember, not everyone has the same preferred effort/reward ratio as you. Again, the diversity of the modding scene shows that.
I hate the idea of "unbalanced is when it kills part of the game" because almost every mod is unbalanced with this rule. If we say that we will consider "the game" to be a modpack, then we have the issue of things being too difficult in vanilla. Balance changes due to both your preferred effort/reward ratio and what mods you are playing with. This is me speaking from what I have observed.
True, you're right. I should stop posting in the middle of the night. However, I think you misunderstood what I meant when I said "kills off part of the game." In that sense, I meant how invincibility armor would make every other armor that requires more effort obsolete, as there is nowhere to go from the top. In terms of how you took my words, I also hate that, vanilla is boring, however every aspect of still retains a place, despite the whatever intense amount of mods you may add. Or, at least I feel that it should.
Urg, I think I've become too invested in my argument to think straight. I really just feel that mods shouldn't push in on each-other's territory.
As far as I can tell playing with a lot of different mods there is no endgame armor that requires more effort... maybe Quantum but nobody really considers that to be an aim any longer since IC2 is somewhat, tedious?
Seriously Draconic gear requires a considerable investment in infrastructure and systems. The power requirement is very high (good luck providing that power without some endgame form of generation), the material requirements are very high I'm not sure of any other gear that has quite as high a material investment, even the Kami gear looks reasonable in comparison, hell even the Gregtech MPS recipes from 1.4.2 look reasonable and it has a fairly high time investment you have to have killed the Ender Draggy a couple of times at least so you must have revived it (or killed one of the tougher ones) at least once. That said yeah it is incredibly powerful and does basically give you creative mode survivability (but as I said in my previous post the Gem Armor gives you better than creative survivability and is much more easily achieved), in multiplayer I could see that being a drawback but hey if you leave people alone long enough for them to get this gear... well that is your own fault, hell camp the End and deny them access to the draggy no more problem lol
The bold is a bit paradoxical from a third party perspective. I guess it makes sense from a first person perspective, camp the end, they don't get the armor, you win, no problem.
But from an outside perspective the problem is still there, pvp favors the early bird when "OP" mods are allowed in a PvP setting, no matter the time cost.
To be honest though, all of this is rendered moot by the fact that server side admin mods can very simply remove these "OP" elements. An admin who cares to provide a solid PvP experience will utilize these tools lest their server have a short lived lifespan (which is what happens on servers with powerful modpacks PvP or not). OP weapons/armor can be removed, so this question of PvP balance is a tad pointless.
Ideally if the modding landscape allowed for it PvP servers would be done with specific packs. Maybe someone will or already has been working on one but as at now I have heard of no purpose built PvP packs, at least not in the FTB community. Maybe there's packs that are good for PvP but none where the sole purpose is to serve a modded PvP setting.