So I can go mine a single iridium block and then activate the miner to spam myself some iridium! Yay 
[1.7.10][LISTED] InfiTech 2 Modpack v3.2.21 [HQM][GregTech balanced hard-mode modpack]
- Thread starter Jason McRay
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codewarrior0
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Yeah, I guess you could. It only works once, though, cause then it'll break whatever ore it was actually trying to mine, and then get that ore's drops when it mines the one after that. But since this modpack has [REDACTED], wouldn't it be easier to put a [REDACTED] on a [REDACTED] to duplicate the iridium that way?
700 pages of us arguing about stuff, yay
But it's still not a full bucket.
Only 300 pages to go!
Does anybody else make BioGas via LV Distilleries and Industrial Biomass? I could swear that the recipe called for 30 EU/t or 32 EU/t, but after making a big jump in the modpack version to the current one, the recipe in NEI now tells me its only 16 EU/t. Was that number lowered recently? And more importantly, is it correct? I made a setup with 10 Distilleries (so that's 160 EU/t total required power) running off of 6 LV Steam Turbines (192 EU/t theoretical output) and my Battery buffers are running down far too fast. I learned I can only run 6 Distilleries off the 6 LV Steam Turbines, not 10. Perhaps the line losses associated with 12x Tin Cable is ridiculous and that's my problem? The longest length from Battery Buffer to a Distillery machine is 3 lengths, but since each machine only pulls 1 amp, doesn't that mean those machines should still be getting 29 EU/t each? Or is my understanding of line losses flawed? I have 3 battery buffer boxes each with 4 LV batteries, and those run into my 10 Distilleries via 12x Tin Cable. So I should be supplying 12 amps of 32 EU/t to 10 machines that only require 16 EU/t each... so why are my batteries draining so quickly then?
One thing to note - against my better judgement, I decided to use GT Fluid Pipes for my setup pulling steam from my RC tank to the LV Turbines. So it's possible the flaw in my design is in the steam piping. I have Large Steel Fluid Pipe as the main feed with a shutter at every length, and then off of that main pipe I tap 6 of the Small Steel Fluid Pipes, one for each Turbine (shutters everywhere i can put them, output only). By my calcs this should be more than enough steam flow, but I've had trouble with GT Fluid Pipes every single time I've tried to use them in the past. My fear is they're causing me trouble again, but I'll start with the other stuff first, make sure that recipe is correct. It almost seems as if they ARE using 30 EU/t, not the 16 EU/t shown in NEI.
One thing to note - against my better judgement, I decided to use GT Fluid Pipes for my setup pulling steam from my RC tank to the LV Turbines. So it's possible the flaw in my design is in the steam piping. I have Large Steel Fluid Pipe as the main feed with a shutter at every length, and then off of that main pipe I tap 6 of the Small Steel Fluid Pipes, one for each Turbine (shutters everywhere i can put them, output only). By my calcs this should be more than enough steam flow, but I've had trouble with GT Fluid Pipes every single time I've tried to use them in the past. My fear is they're causing me trouble again, but I'll start with the other stuff first, make sure that recipe is correct. It almost seems as if they ARE using 30 EU/t, not the 16 EU/t shown in NEI.
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codewarrior0
Guest
12x Tin Cable is ridiculous, period. Allow me to speculate on your setup, since I can't see exactly what it looks like:
Your batteries are draining because you have a big, fat LV power line with multiple power sources attached to it. The power is not taking the optimal route from the battery buffers to the distilleries, incurring extra losses. By that, I mean for each distillery, there are multiple battery buffers it could take power from, and it may be taking power from the furthest one rather than the closest one. If I were to power ten distilleries from six LV generators, here is what I would do:
I would split the power into two sets, each with three turbines, one batbuf, and five distilleries. The batbuf should have at least three batteries so it can supply 96 EU/t to the five distilleries, which only consume 80 EU/t. That the batbuf only emits three amps, while you want to power five machines, is inconsequential. Each distillery only consumes 16 EU/t, so it will only request one amp every other tick or so. Connect the three turbines directly to the batbuf, connect up to three 4x Tin Cables to the batbuf's output side, and connect the distilleries to the cable. If needed for a compact build, use planks ("Oak Plank") as covers to force power lines to disconnect from the other set.
Your batteries are draining because you have a big, fat LV power line with multiple power sources attached to it. The power is not taking the optimal route from the battery buffers to the distilleries, incurring extra losses. By that, I mean for each distillery, there are multiple battery buffers it could take power from, and it may be taking power from the furthest one rather than the closest one. If I were to power ten distilleries from six LV generators, here is what I would do:
I would split the power into two sets, each with three turbines, one batbuf, and five distilleries. The batbuf should have at least three batteries so it can supply 96 EU/t to the five distilleries, which only consume 80 EU/t. That the batbuf only emits three amps, while you want to power five machines, is inconsequential. Each distillery only consumes 16 EU/t, so it will only request one amp every other tick or so. Connect the three turbines directly to the batbuf, connect up to three 4x Tin Cables to the batbuf's output side, and connect the distilleries to the cable. If needed for a compact build, use planks ("Oak Plank") as covers to force power lines to disconnect from the other set.
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The issue boils down to this: for a 16 EU/t recipe, we're in a bind. We can't use 1 LV Turbine for each 2 Distilleries, because of line losses. Just by having to use one piece of tin cable (which cannot be avoided even if we use Battery Buffer Boxes), our 32 EU/t output drops down to 31 EU/t, or in other words, split equally between the two machines, that's 15.5 EU/t to machines requesting 16 EU/t. Eventually, the machine buffers will run out of juice and start complaining by making their noise (altho I use the Muffler Upgrades in them so I wouldn't hear it).
So then the question becomes: what happens when we hit rock bottom of our power supply? Do we get no output at all, because both machines are 0.5 EU short every tick? Or do we get full output from one machine and no output from the other? Or do we still somehow get outputs from both machines, and how often would that occur?
You touched upon a point that often confuses me. When I have an LV Turbine 1 block away from a machine, and another LV Turbine 5 blocks away, I don't consider the fact that it might take the power from the farthest Turbine and not from the closest one. That's not intuitive. But if that's how it actually works in the code, then yes I need to get that into my head and stop thinking the way I do about GT electricity. I'm doing the EU math correctly in my head, however it's my misunderstanding and misapplication of the math when it comes to actually laying out the power cabling that is my problem. Thanks for pointing it out. I hope I can finally understand it once and for all.
Let me try to summarize in my words and you tell me if this is right: We don't want one big network that is "soaked" with "full power" (i.e. a lot of buffer boxes or generators feeding into it) because that messes up the pathing algorithm (i.e. there is no path optimization done in GT electrical circuits, in fact it's better to assume worst case rather than best case pathing). Instead, we want to isolate as much as possible our pathways from power generating sources to power consuming machines, so that we don't run into the incorrect-pathing problem? Is that an accurate way to put it? You're correct about my setup, I have one big long 12x cable with three of the 4-batter buffer boxes atop the cable pointing down at it to fill it with power. I'm thinking of the electricity as if it were a fluid, and thinking of the tin cable as if it were a big fluid pipe, which is an incorrect analogy for GT electricity apparently.
Here's an even shorter summary for me: Stop thinking about GT cabling in parallel and start thinking in series. Parallel is bad, series is good, is that correct?
So then the question becomes: what happens when we hit rock bottom of our power supply? Do we get no output at all, because both machines are 0.5 EU short every tick? Or do we get full output from one machine and no output from the other? Or do we still somehow get outputs from both machines, and how often would that occur?
You touched upon a point that often confuses me. When I have an LV Turbine 1 block away from a machine, and another LV Turbine 5 blocks away, I don't consider the fact that it might take the power from the farthest Turbine and not from the closest one. That's not intuitive. But if that's how it actually works in the code, then yes I need to get that into my head and stop thinking the way I do about GT electricity. I'm doing the EU math correctly in my head, however it's my misunderstanding and misapplication of the math when it comes to actually laying out the power cabling that is my problem. Thanks for pointing it out. I hope I can finally understand it once and for all.
Let me try to summarize in my words and you tell me if this is right: We don't want one big network that is "soaked" with "full power" (i.e. a lot of buffer boxes or generators feeding into it) because that messes up the pathing algorithm (i.e. there is no path optimization done in GT electrical circuits, in fact it's better to assume worst case rather than best case pathing). Instead, we want to isolate as much as possible our pathways from power generating sources to power consuming machines, so that we don't run into the incorrect-pathing problem? Is that an accurate way to put it? You're correct about my setup, I have one big long 12x cable with three of the 4-batter buffer boxes atop the cable pointing down at it to fill it with power. I'm thinking of the electricity as if it were a fluid, and thinking of the tin cable as if it were a big fluid pipe, which is an incorrect analogy for GT electricity apparently.
Here's an even shorter summary for me: Stop thinking about GT cabling in parallel and start thinking in series. Parallel is bad, series is good, is that correct?
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codewarrior0
Guest
The machine "nearest" to the battery buffer remains at full power, since it's always first in line to recieve amps. "Nearest" meaning with respect to whatever priority ordering GT assigns to machines on the wire, which like you I'm just assuming is just completely arbitrary. (Ideally it's path length, hopefully it's either TileEntity order or coordinate order, but I wouldn't bet against HashMap order, which is itself completely arbitrary.) The other machine stays at zero power and keeps making that groaning noise, deleting a bunch of power each time.
100% correct. Or to put it simply, each length of cable should have one and exactly one source of power, or it should have one and exactly one power consumer. That source could be a transformer, a batbuf, or a generator. The rules loosen a little bit once you start using EV power sources, since on those cables you can pretty much ignore line loss... but you are going to step that power down to LV or MV at some point, and that's when you need to pay attention.
This is good advice.
4 turbines into one machine (via one cable if you like) = good.
1 generator/battery buffer into 2+ machines (amp dispersal permitting) = good.
4 turbines into 4 machines (via 4A cable) = bad because the results aren't easily predictable to the player.
Its perfectly normal for me to have 8 consumers on a single 8x(+) battery buffer. But I never, ever put multiple battery buffers on that same line.
There it is. Short and succinct, easy to remember and adhere to. It also describes when and where to use battery buffer boxes... if we need 4 amps of LV power to run four machines and we only have LV turbines, then we MUST put a Buffer Box between the machines and the turbines if we are to follow that rule of thumb (or else put a Turbine at every machine, which is terribly wasteful in most instances). Thank you very much for finally (I hope) clearing this up for me!
Steam piping should be fine. Also should be easy to check just by seeing if they're all running at full speed visually and by viewing the input buffer. Not sure if the small steel pipes are necessary, unless it was due to physical limitations, should just be able to run the large pipes to each turbine. But again, shouldn't make a difference once all of the buffers fill.
Well 10 distilleries @ probably 20 eu/t (after line loss and batbox loss) = 200 eu/t. 6 LV turbines = 192 eu/t. So it's not surprising you're losing power. You're only leaving yourself with 3.2 eu of loss per distillery, which is very difficult to manage.
I don't think it works like that. Amps (packets) don't split between machines. Your battery buffer is going to send 1 packet (amp) of 16+losses to each distillery. Therefore as long as you supply have as many amps as there are machines, and your battery buffer is full, you'll never have the distilleries run out of power.
Best setup with what you have would be 2 turbines, feeding a 4x batbox, feeding 3 distilleries. All three turbines touching the batbox, and only one cable output to the 3 distilleries. Batbox and cables only need to handle 4 amps. This setup doesn't leave much room for losses either, but only generates ~2 eu/t loss for each distillery.
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codewarrior0
Guest
Oh, and to answer your original question.
The Distillery Biogas recipe was changed from 30 EU to 16 EU. It was nerfed in such a way that to get the same Biogas output, you will need twice as many distilleries, but only a tiny bit more power. And also the 16 EU thing you mentioned, which takes away all those easy wiring solutions.
The Distillery Biogas recipe was changed from 30 EU to 16 EU. It was nerfed in such a way that to get the same Biogas output, you will need twice as many distilleries, but only a tiny bit more power. And also the 16 EU thing you mentioned, which takes away all those easy wiring solutions.
So ehm... as someone who still didn't start LV a confusing question:
- So it's pretty much "Build big not fast", but in contrast to the big build you should put the machines together as much as possible cause else you waste half your power just through cables? ^^"
This is getting more and more complicated as more I try to understand 'how' I should plan my base, hehe.
- So it's pretty much "Build big not fast", but in contrast to the big build you should put the machines together as much as possible cause else you waste half your power just through cables? ^^"
This is getting more and more complicated as more I try to understand 'how' I should plan my base, hehe.
Good to know I'm not going crazy. hahaha And this is what happens when you jump from modpack version 10 to modpack version 18. Lots of unexpected changes happening all at once, most of them undocumented (not because of Jason but because I didn't take the time to read all 8 of the previous Release Notes!).
Yes, now I get it - power requirement reduced from 30 to 16 but processing time went from 1 second to 2 seconds... meaning you need 2x the distilleries as before. I'm sure glad I checked the recipe instead of just assuming "oh I know it's 30 EU/t". LOL I did assume that, and was rather shocked to see 16 EU/t. I thought I might be losing my mind. hahaha
As about the dragging the item.. Not sure why is it not working... It is working just fine in my own instance, I must have something different that is not getting pushed out...
This is why it is better to try and make "compact builds". In other words, to try and keep everything as close together as possible. When you spread your base out, either horizontal or vertical, you add a lot of costs - both material costs, because you need more pipes and cables and other infrastructure, but also power costs, because each length of power cable you run costs you line losses (power losses).
You don't want to build so small that you always run into problems with space, and give yourself a lot of headaches... but you also don't want to build huge. Just always keep this in mind, there's a good balance between "too big" and "too small", that's where you want to be, right in the middle, balanced. But everybody's idea of where that balance point is will probably be a little different. If you build bigger, you're gonna have to work harder to overcome the larger power losses and the longer conduit runs. Some players are okay with that, you see? Others want to work as efficient as they can.
Base planning is a struggle, I agree... because we don't know how much space to devote to certain things until we've played the modpack a few times.
And this pack isn't like other packs where you can just say "i'll leave more space than I think I might need", you really want to get it right the first time.Alright thank you
Well I can't claim I'm a very efficient player - I just love to sacrifice some efficiency for having a nicer build, hehe - but I guess I really need to get myself together a bit when it comes to gregtech.
So no "Power room", huge "Machine Hall" ... more like many little machine halls each with it's own little power setup I guess. Uh... I'm already worried about my time starting in electricity, so much to think about and what you can do wrong. Sounds like fun, hehe.
Well I can't claim I'm a very efficient player - I just love to sacrifice some efficiency for having a nicer build, hehe - but I guess I really need to get myself together a bit when it comes to gregtech.
So no "Power room", huge "Machine Hall" ... more like many little machine halls each with it's own little power setup I guess. Uh... I'm already worried about my time starting in electricity, so much to think about and what you can do wrong. Sounds like fun, hehe.