[1.7.10][LISTED] InfiTech 2 Modpack v3.2.21 [HQM][GregTech balanced hard-mode modpack]

[Tsuko]

Interesting feedback Tsuko.

Nobody is dismissing anything here. I don't really care how hard or simple something is, so long as it has *ITS* place in the pack, and everything else gets that thing's place in the pack.

Right now, forestry treefarms have little or no place in the pack. They're deprecated at all stages because there's an option that runs free of charge. I'm mentioning this because its true, but I don't really see an ideal solution to the problem. Its just the way it is, so, whatever.

And while TC research and scanning and whatnot exists, I don't find it any harder or simpler than setting up a tree farm. I do find research mindbogglingly dull, but that's personal.

Tree farms for infinite resources is tolerable. What I'd like to avoid seeing is people having no reason to tech further. Tree farms make a lot of sense in the early/mid game, but its hard to swallow a charcoal-powered space industry

So it is just that the fuel type is too simple?

Yeah i agree, if i can do everything with charcoal it is a bit disappointing, i love the different resources, there should never just be 1 resource to get everything such as my old mod i liked Equivalent Exchange, it was fun in a sense but it is more fun having to discover how to aquire a lot of different resources (for example thaumcraft and gregtech does this, a lot of different resources) Has anyone done fusion with treefarms though?
Is it common?

Edit: I think thats why i'm avoiding mana-beans, it is basicly 1 way of aquiring most things, so i'm looking for other options and manabeans is last resort.

 

[SolManX]

To me it seems a bit elitist to dismiss TC as being too easy or early, tin and antimony can be hard to find if you don't know where and how to look, but if you have the knowledge i'm betting it is quite easy, there seems to be very easy ways of flying with IC2 as well, harder in TC i think, maybe i'll find TC much easier the next time i start up as i know how to do things now and THEN it is a problem? (less grind than GT? if knowledge of both mods is perfect, achieve infinity easier with TC?)

To be sure, when I said 'easy' I meant once it's up and running - in the sense that it's passive. Getting to that stage is hard for anyone who hasn't done it before, as I'm finding out!

 

[Pyure]

So it is just that the fuel type is too simple?

Yeah i agree, if i can do everything with charcoal it is a bit disappointing, i love the different resources, there should never just be 1 resource to get everything such as my old mod i liked Equivalent Exchange, it was fun in a sense but it is more fun having to discover how to aquire a lot of different resources (for example thaumcraft and gregtech for example does this, a lot of different resources) Has anyone done fusion with treefarms though?
Is it common?

Edit: I think thats why i'm avoiding mana-beans, it is basicly 1 way of aquiring most things, so i'm looking for other options and manabeans is last resort.

As a fuel, charcoal is too easy to scale to extremely large proportions with virtually no penalty. So you can run a space-age industry on them if you want to.

Mana-beans are surprisingly tricky due to the number of restrictions

What do you mean by fusion/treefarms? Interestingly, free-farms with minechem fusion is ridiculously powerful, but that's not in the pack anymore afaik (shame).

 

[Tsuko]

To be sure, when I said 'easy' I meant once it's up and running - in the sense that it's passive. Getting to that stage is hard for anyone who hasn't done it before, as I'm finding out!

Haha, yeah but it depends from person to person, i had bad habits that i had to change to get things done, i still waste a lot of time just standing looking on my treefarm thinking about stuff, how to improve, what i should do, instaid of just getting the things i need that i'm missing.

There is always a problem of inventory space and missing resources, discovering i'm missing resources halts my crafting so now i have to do two things at once, so i think i'm learning to make sure i've all the resources i have before crafting and even more than that because i always seem to need more than i thought eventually, it takes me long time to craft stuff apparently so i like to grind up on resources so i can craft a lot of stuff at once and stop worrying about crafting the same items over and over, looking all over for the resources and discovering yet again that i'm missing resources.

It is incredible inefficient crafting small amounts of items, so i like whoever is crafting tons of NAND chips to fill a barrel to never think about it again, thats efficiency!

 

[Ieldra]

I do

Regardless, we all play long enough for it to pay off (or we wouldn't do it). Without speaking to what the cost SHOULD be, its always definitely worth keeping an eye on whether the costs and benefits are in an appropriate balance. For some, the argument persists that RNGs as they stand are a bit of a cop-out. I'm inclined to agree to a degree, but unlike most annoying "win buttons" I find this one reasonably easy to ignore.

In case anyone missed that: I violently reject any argument that says "if you don't like that overpowered thing, just don't use it." It breaks immersion when you know you can "win" at any time.

The thing is, balance is a matter of perception beyond a certain point. I value renewable power generation, you do not, but I do not see why "You [generic you] don't like it" must result in "I can't have it," if there is no reasonably objective method of determining balance. You once said the yardstick should be "Does it make everything else irrelevant" I can't see that being the case here.

As for power generation in general, as I see it, every power generation method that requires me to look for a new fuel source every two real-time days is a stopgap solution, and I hate stopgap solutions. Once built, I want my stuff to run. I don't mind complexity, but "it requires regular attention" is a dealbreaker. I have enough else to do. Any kind of power generation of the kind I prefer can theoretically be spammed, but that doesn't make it automatically unbalanced. "It's possible" can never be the objective yardstick. Things can be possible that almost no one uses because they aren't worth it from most people's point of view, while they are perfect "win buttons" for some small minority.

"Everyone uses it" is an indicator that the alternatives, if any, are not attractive. "Nobody uses it" is an indicator that it's not attractive enough. I agree that it is desirable that such things are addressed, but there is a large area of "It's worth it for some, and not for others" which is perfectly ok and does not require a change.

 

[Tsuko]

As a fuel, charcoal is too easy to scale to extremely large proportions with virtually no penalty. So you can run a space-age industry on them if you want to.

Mana-beans are surprisingly tricky due to the number of restrictions

What do you mean by fusion/treefarms? Interestingly, free-farms with minechem fusion is ridiculously powerful, but that's not in the pack anymore afaik (shame).

Hmm i'll have to look into manabeans later, probably for lucrum if i don't do a zombie pig farm or something, i just never quite understood how to do animal/mob farms really, i'm looking forward my blaze farm at least.

I can get gold from a lot of ores but i think i'll need a ore dust that can be magnetically electrolyzed giving me gold or something like it, i could possibly create that ore from nuggets duplicated via TC, more research required (by research i don't mean TC research using aspect points, i mean me looking around how do get stuff lol)

You might see that i'm avoiding doing automated mining operations but that is because i haven't done those yet so i dunno how to, i want to do a huge industry with automated quarries sometime though.

 

[Pyure]

The thing is, balance is a matter of perception beyond a certain point. I value renewable power generation, you do not, but I do not see why "You [generic you] don't like it" must result in "I can't have it," if there is no reasonably objective method of determining balance. You once said the yardstick should be "Does it make everything else irrelevant" I can't see that being the case here.

As for power generation in general, as I see it, every power generation method that requires me to look for a new fuel source every two real-time days is a stopgap solution, and I hate stopgap solutions. Once built, I want my stuff to run. I don't mind complexity, but "it requires regular attention" is a dealbreaker. I have enough else to do. Any kind of power generation of the kind I prefer can theoretically be spammed, but that doesn't make it automatically unbalanced. "It's possible" can never be the objective yardstick. Things can be possible that almost no one uses because they aren't worth it from most people's point of view, while they are perfect "win buttons" for some small minority.

"Everyone uses it" is an indicator that the alternatives, if any, are not attractive. "Nobody uses it" is an indicator that it's not attractive enough. I agree that it is desirable that such things are addressed, but there is a large area of "It's worth it for some, and not for others" which is perfectly ok and does not require a change.

We're not really miles apart here man.

I'm not diametrically opposed to renewable power, but its to the detriment of the pack if its an option that makes any other option stupid. This is why powerful solar generation is classified under "overpoweredstuff" in the configs: it really does break the game, and it doesn't matter how much you pay to attain it.

I totally agree with your concerns about fuel sources, the problem is that you're exaggerating the issue. A single uranium vein contains enough energy to power you for weeks or months. There's no possibility that you'll go through it "every two days" unless all your machines consume 32k eu/t, and even then I doubt it. In this sense its not a regular problem on the scale you're talking about, its just the GregTech Way (and one with several workarounds, some of which you've found.)

Sorry, but in game design, "its possible" is a critical yardstick, and one of the only valid ones. You always need to have a view for what players can and will do. If everyone rocks solar, then we might as well just tear everything else out and call it SolarTech (....trademark pending)

 

[Tsuko]

We're not really miles apart here man.

I'm not diametrically opposed to renewable power, but its to the detriment of the pack if its an option that makes any other option stupid. This is why powerful solar generation is classified under "overpoweredstuff" in the configs: it really does break the game, and it doesn't matter how much you pay to attain it.

I totally agree with your concerns about fuel sources, the problem is that you're exaggerating the issue. A single uranium vein contains enough energy to power you for weeks or months. There's no possibility that you'll go through it "every two days" unless all your machines consume 32k eu/t, and even then I doubt it. In this sense its not a regular problem on the scale you're talking about, its just the GregTech Way (and one with several workarounds, some of which you've found.)

Sorry, but in game design, "its possible" is a critical yardstick, and one of the only valid ones. You always need to have a view for what players can and will do. If everyone rocks solar, then we might as well just tear everything else out and call it SolarTech (....trademark pending)

Haha yeah i agree, solar farms are waaaay to simple, like i said before: the issue isn't infinity, it is the difficulty attaining it, but saying infinity doesn't mean much, i might have an infinite treefarm but that doesn't mean i have infinite wood.

Maybe we can have infinite farms but not an infinite AMOUNT of that farm? would that be another way of balancing stuff? (making sure that you cannot build 100 treefarms for some reason?) I don't like artificial limiters though so natural stuff that there can only be a limited number of in the world could be a good source of a particular resource for infinity.

Or just really hard stuff to obtain, that you cannot get automaticly, so it requires manual effort to build more infinite farms to increase your resource yield.

I think my latter "solution" is better because i don't think anyone likes artificial limiters like that, this modpack is called infitech 2 and being hard-capped would suck =_=

 

[Pyure]

i might have an infinite treefarm but that doesn't mean i have infinite wood.

For the purposes of the discussion, if you have a single treefarm (any TC treefarm will do), you have infinite wood Its just a matter of rate, and it doesn't take much to keep up with a massive high-tech industry.

Maybe we can have infinite farms but not an infinite AMOUNT of that farm? would that be another way of balancing stuff? (making sure that you cannot build 100 treefarms for some reason?) I don't like artificial limiters though so natural stuff that there can only be a limited number of in the world could be a good source of a particular resource for infinity.

In game design we used terms like hard and soft controls. A mechanism such as pollution that incurred diminishing returns and nudged players into other gameplay elements would be a soft control or soft boundary. Putting a strict limit on the number of treefarms would be a hard control.

I love soft controls which is why the pollution thing appeals to me: you can slope it any way you like, so it would work in all kinds of packs, from hardcore to simple.

 

[Tsuko]

For the purposes of the discussion, if you have a single treefarm (any TC treefarm will do), you have infinite wood Its just a matter of rate, and it doesn't take much to keep up with a massive high-tech industry.

That might be the problem, the different voltages are just 4 times higher (linear) what if it was exponental instaid? the only difference is the last tier which is max which is crazy. so 32 volt => 1024 volts => 1 Megavolt => 1,1 Teravolt, the next tier being exponential makes it like sometimes one thousand times higher, doing the same power generation to go to the next level wouldn't be feasible unless you spam A LOT.

Most players would probably have to think about how to meet the higher tech tiers power requirements each tech tier and not just spam more treefarms.

So every tier would have different or more optimizied power generation?

Isn't that what happend to us on earth? first there was manual labor (slaves and horses) then we got steam and then we got electricity and now we get electricity in different (more efficient) ways fission and then maybe fusion then maybe antimatter or something else, we don't just spam more coal power plants.

 

[Pyure]

That might be the problem, the different voltages are just 4 times higher (linear) what if it was exponental instaid? the only difference is the last tier which is max which is crazy. so 32 volt => 1024 volts => 1 Megavolt => 1,1 Teravolt, the next tier being exponential makes it like sometimes one thousand times higher, doing the same power generation to go to the next level wouldn't be feasible unless you spam A LOT.

Most players would probably have to think about how to meet the higher tech tiers power requirements each tech tier and not just spam more treefarms.

So every tier would have different or more optimizied power generation?

I dunno how well the CPU would handle the arithmetic you're proposing

 

[Tsuko]

I dunno how well the CPU would handle the arithmetic you're proposing

The problem with my suggestion is there may be few options so everybody has to do the same thing to get to the highest tech tier and if it is done to gregtech that would make other mod's power generation effectively useless after MV or something, though i don't know how much you guys are generating, you will probably suprise me lol >.<

But the CPU being the limiting factor isn't that bad imo, it isn't hard capped and you can always improve on designs to make them more efficient and lag less and do compromises etc, that stuff is fun for me

 

[Pyure]

The problem with my suggestion is there may be few options so everybody has to do the same thing to get to the highest tech tier and if it is done to gregtech that would make other mod's power generation effectively useless after MV or something, though i don't know how much you guys are generating, you will probably suprise me lol >.<

I'm currently generating a measly 400 eu/t. I keep getting sidetracked from all my grand schemes.
* I have a half-assed EnderIO combustion engine setup (5 engines). I cancelled the project when I remembered how much more efficiently RC boilers process diesel.
* I have gathered all the resources I need for a BR Turbine to handle the output from my GT Large Steel Boiler. Still haven't built it.
* I may have the resources I need for an actual BR Reactor. Certainly haven't built that.
* I have everything I need for a couple of IC2 MOX reactors. Haven't built those.

On the other hand, I improved my chili bean and propulsion seed gardens

 

[Tsuko]

I'm currently generating a measly 400 eu/t. I keep getting sidetracked from all my grand schemes.
* I have a half-assed EnderIO combustion engine setup (5 engines). I cancelled the project when I remembered how much more efficiently RC boilers process diesel.
* I have gathered all the resources I need for a BR Turbine to handle the output from my GT Large Steel Boiler. Still haven't built it.
* I may have the resources I need for an actual BR Reactor. Certainly haven't built that.
* I have everything I need for a couple of IC2 MOX reactors. Haven't built those.

On the other hand, I improved my chili bean and propulsion seed gardens

RC boilers seems op compared to gregtech stuff lol, the GT large bronze/steel boilers explode when mishandled as well making them non-feasible for me for smaller scale production (which is a nice way of balancing things imo) I can even use alumentum for the RC boiler right? ( cannot with GT stuff )
i have 14 high pressure coal boilers generating a maximum of 210steam/t but only two basic steam turbines so i can only generate 64eu/t out of 70eu/t.

and what is worse is that i isolated the two basic steam turbines so they are on different cables, just to make sure i can always do some ore processing and some metal bending and other stuff at the same time.. so only 32eu/t on each line, i can use 2 machines and it get clogged up =_= so annoying, slows me down immensly but i have no place to store excess eu/steam (beyond railcraft tanks, only have an iron medium sized one though as a buffer).

I'm not sure if small acid batteries is a solution to this either, i got near completion on my farm but hit a road block and now i've to "innovate" to solve it.
Surely i could store 5184 x 12k eu worth batteries in a single golden chest (62,208 Megavolts).. hmm that is quite a lot actually, they stack up to 64 i believe? fully charged small acid batteries, heck i'll do this!

Small lithium batteries would only store 81 batteries in the same chest providing 8,1 Megavolts of storage but they are rechargable so they handle very differently.

Grats on your farm improvements, i love when i can do stuff like that as well i try to reduce the number of golems to a lower amount and using less redstone and other stuff, being as clean and efficient as possible.

I have like halved the resource requirements of all the machines and golems in my farm and i'm sure i can still innovate, reducing waste, perfecting, too much fun

 

[Miguel1118]

I've started a new game and I cant get bronze dust achivment, not even with creative, it seems that it need a gt bronze dust, but it get converted into ic2 bronze dust every time I craft it

 

[Pyure]

RC boilers seems op compared to gregtech stuff lol, the GT large bronze/steel boilers explode when mishandled as well making them non-feasible for me for smaller scale production (which is a nice way of balancing things imo) I can even use alumentum for the RC boiler right? ( cannot with GT stuff )

You can use alumentum in the Large GT boilers fwiw. But your boilers are incredibly efficient so they're worth using too.

Yeah, RC is over-the-top buff when it comes to its boilers and turbines. The boilers are mitigated by the snail-pace heatup time, while the GT ones are fantastic logistically because you can produce steam exactly when you need it. They're also versatile since a single boiler can consume both fluids and solids (although they suck at diesel)

The RC turbine is almost a bigger problem. I never make the basic GT turbine, I always just skip straight to the GTRC version because its way more effiicent. Of course, it costs a ton more steel (a few stacks of it since you don't have a bending machine in the early game)

 

[SolManX]

I never make the basic GT turbine, I always just skip straight to the GT version because its way more effiicent.

I don't get what you mean here by the GT version, Pyure. Do you just mean the MV version?

 

[Pyure]

I don't get what you mean here by the GT version, Pyure. Do you just mean the MV version?

Uh, no, I mean I'm apparently an idiot.

I mean I skip the GT and go to the RC. Sorry.

 

[SolManX]

Uh, no, I mean I'm apparently an idiot.

I mean I skip the GT and skip to the RC. Sorry.

Got you - I sort of realised after I posted.

 

[Ieldra]

RC boilers seems op compared to gregtech stuff lol

I'd put it the other way round. GT power generation is underpowered.