Thermal Expansion 3.0!!! No More Beta! Thanks KL!
- Thread starter RedBoss
- Start date
I prefer "fun" & "unfun". I don't play mods for a quest in "balance".
EE2 was fun but it was unbalanced COMPARED to other things.
TE2 was fun but it was unbalanced COMPARED to other things.
Gregtech was not fun and it was unbalanced COMPARED to other things.
Ars magica was fun but it was unbalanced COMPARED to other things.
Balanced means nothing in how fun it can be.
Also, unbalanced can also mean its not "op".
I agree with the Fun/Unfun thing =3
TE2 was fun but it was unbalanced COMPARED to other things.
Gregtech was not fun and it was unbalanced COMPARED to other things.
Ars magica was fun but it was unbalanced COMPARED to other things.
Balanced means nothing in how fun it can be.
Also, unbalanced can also mean its not "op".
I agree with the Fun/Unfun thing =3
Imbalance can cause unfun though. I briefly enjoyed running round with a diamond chest and a force wrench for additional storage, but stopped doing it because it I felt it was overpowered. And also because it flew off into a lava pool when I wrenched it once...
Balance as a whole concept can be measured to a degree but only within a mod - when you start trying to balance against every mod that exists... you end up with a GregTech and nobody wants that nonsense. That is what comes of overzealous attempts to rebalance the whole of the game. It can never end well.
There is also a difference between a blunt nerf and a creative one. The new tesseracts for example. If the recipe were made more expensive (I suspect it will be) then that would be a nerf... but if you now have the ability to send power, liquid and items though a single tesseract does the cost make it a nerf anymore? Not really.
That's where subjective and actual balance differ, it isn't as easily quantifiable as people seem to believe.
There is also a difference between a blunt nerf and a creative one. The new tesseracts for example. If the recipe were made more expensive (I suspect it will be) then that would be a nerf... but if you now have the ability to send power, liquid and items though a single tesseract does the cost make it a nerf anymore? Not really.
That's where subjective and actual balance differ, it isn't as easily quantifiable as people seem to believe.
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Unfortunately, "fun" is even more subjective than "unbalanced". At least for the latter you can make mathematical arguments when you compare one thing to another. But whether or not you have fun playing a mod depends almost entirely on the person.
Case in point: GregTech (in conjunction with AE) allowed me to build the most insanely complex autocrafting facility I have ever built. You could order items that went through over a dozen individual crafting steps, hopping from machine to machine, receiving liquid input here, getting electrolyzed there, being assembled with a different item with its own production chain and so on. It was an immensely satisfying and fun experience for me. In fact, the least fun part was AE, because I cannot possibly imagine a more boring item movement solution. I can't even see my stuff float through pipes! Why would anyone build factories if you can't see your stufffloat through pipes? That's like, the entire point of factories!
People find GregTech "unfun" because it is a conversion mod that changes the Minecraft experience as a whole into something they did not seek to get. And that's perfectly fine. I don't necessarily subscribe to the entire philosophy that Greg is pushing, and I dislike many changes he made. But nevertheless, there was immense fun to be had in making the complex web of recipes my minion. It was an engineering challenge that required me find new ways of hooking machines and even entire mods together. And if I should never do it again, I can still say that the one time I did it was worth it.
So what do the two paragraphs above have to do with ideas of balance? Absolutely nothing. And that's why "fun" is a terrible replacement for "balance" because they describe different things. Correlation does not imply causation - you might think that "a balanced mod" (in your own definition) is also "a fun mod" (in your own definition), but this in no way implies that all balanced mods are fun, or all unbalanced mods are unfun, or that all fun mods are balanced, or that all unfun mods are unbalanced.
You can decide what you want to play based on what's fun alone, no problem. But the concept of fun should be considered independently from the concept of balance.
Case in point: GregTech (in conjunction with AE) allowed me to build the most insanely complex autocrafting facility I have ever built. You could order items that went through over a dozen individual crafting steps, hopping from machine to machine, receiving liquid input here, getting electrolyzed there, being assembled with a different item with its own production chain and so on. It was an immensely satisfying and fun experience for me. In fact, the least fun part was AE, because I cannot possibly imagine a more boring item movement solution. I can't even see my stuff float through pipes! Why would anyone build factories if you can't see your stufffloat through pipes? That's like, the entire point of factories!
People find GregTech "unfun" because it is a conversion mod that changes the Minecraft experience as a whole into something they did not seek to get. And that's perfectly fine. I don't necessarily subscribe to the entire philosophy that Greg is pushing, and I dislike many changes he made. But nevertheless, there was immense fun to be had in making the complex web of recipes my minion. It was an engineering challenge that required me find new ways of hooking machines and even entire mods together. And if I should never do it again, I can still say that the one time I did it was worth it.
So what do the two paragraphs above have to do with ideas of balance? Absolutely nothing. And that's why "fun" is a terrible replacement for "balance" because they describe different things. Correlation does not imply causation - you might think that "a balanced mod" (in your own definition) is also "a fun mod" (in your own definition), but this in no way implies that all balanced mods are fun, or all unbalanced mods are unfun, or that all fun mods are balanced, or that all unfun mods are unbalanced.
You can decide what you want to play based on what's fun alone, no problem. But the concept of fun should be considered independently from the concept of balance.
I like the idea of separating "fun" from "balanced".
As for TE Tesseracts being "unbalanced", it's all relative. Most other forms of trans-dimensional item and liquid movement are tax-free and well below a Nether Star in terms of cost per block.
As for Energy Tesseracts, Ender IO has a 10% tax version. While a bit low and "unbalanced", IMHO, that makes TE's 1.5.2 20% Tesseracts looked balanced by comparison.
As for "fun", TE is fun for me because stuff works exactly the way I expect it work and it's configurable ! The blocks look great, the GUIs are intuitive, stuff connects well, and there's no unexpected side effects. I don't have to spend hours and hours watching videoes and reading Wikis to get a basic configuration/connection working. It's intuitive, server-friendly, client-friendly, and in my experience, bug-free.
And, it does all that while not thumbing its nose at other mods by "1-upping" them or doing exactly the same thing but at a far cheaper price with no downsides.
As for TE Tesseracts being "unbalanced", it's all relative. Most other forms of trans-dimensional item and liquid movement are tax-free and well below a Nether Star in terms of cost per block.
As for Energy Tesseracts, Ender IO has a 10% tax version. While a bit low and "unbalanced", IMHO, that makes TE's 1.5.2 20% Tesseracts looked balanced by comparison.
As for "fun", TE is fun for me because stuff works exactly the way I expect it work and it's configurable ! The blocks look great, the GUIs are intuitive, stuff connects well, and there's no unexpected side effects. I don't have to spend hours and hours watching videoes and reading Wikis to get a basic configuration/connection working. It's intuitive, server-friendly, client-friendly, and in my experience, bug-free.
And, it does all that while not thumbing its nose at other mods by "1-upping" them or doing exactly the same thing but at a far cheaper price with no downsides.
Onto more fun topics (GregTech topics never end up well).
Fireworks are fun right?
http://imgur.com/KWGDGPJ
http://imgur.com/KEQ353V
Another effort to demonstrate inherent TE3 compatibility with various mods.
Fireworks are fun right?
http://imgur.com/KWGDGPJ
http://imgur.com/KEQ353V
Another effort to demonstrate inherent TE3 compatibility with various mods.
KL and CoFH - Any plans to support RotaryCraft MW input ?
Specifically, any plans for a TE3 "engine" that will implement ShaftPowerReceiver to accept shaft-based RotaryCraft MW and output RF ?
Specifically, any plans for a TE3 "engine" that will implement ShaftPowerReceiver to accept shaft-based RotaryCraft MW and output RF ?
Yes yes, we see that it works! Now give it to us! Giiiiiiive! <rawr.png>
I find your analysis completely unfun.
I will also defend your right to said analysis because it brings fun to you.
I suspect it will be soon now
For now you can have this instead: http://imgur.com/6Pk2p78I may have some more stuff to show of latter... will have to see.
I get this a lot. But sometimes I feel it's necessary that someone plays devil's advocate and raises the valid points of the unpopular side of the argument. Discussion is what brings us forward in knowledge and understanding!
I suspect it will be soon now
Disqualified! We saw this one already.
I'm actually quite surprised at how popular TE has become over time
It combines providing for many different common needs with a focus on delivering high quality and a recognizable, streamlined aesthetic.
Also, I mostly want it because it has a new power system and I like playing with new power systems. Though I don't expect it to be as interesting and complex as blutricity, because I am well aware that when I start calling things "interesting", some other players are already fleeing in terror
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I'm not... for me TE was love at first sight (of the machine config UIs).I'm actually quite surprised at how popular TE has become over time
Disqualified! We saw this one already.
Well if I'm disqualified I guess you won't want any further sneak peaks from me... oh well then..
I've always like TE. So I'm pretty surprised other players are so slow to like it.
Well if I'm disqualified I guess you won't want any further sneak peaks from me... oh well then..
Curse you! *fistshakes*
Where's the dislike button? Need to dislikes Omicrons disqualified post
Personally, when I first saw TE, I couldn't really see the point. Had just come from tekkit and IC2, and just wanted to start with MJ. Then, I started using TE. Changed my mind pretty quickly then!
Personally, when I first saw TE, I couldn't really see the point. Had just come from tekkit and IC2, and just wanted to start with MJ. Then, I started using TE. Changed my mind pretty quickly then!
Know what we dislike here at FTB? Immature ragebeasting at people instead of respectful discussion. Like this post.
So you made tesseracts to connect to PIPES, but then assumed people would not have access to quarries? What exactly were the tesseracts for then? Honestly when i first ran across thermal expansion when i started playing, i thought it was meant to be an 'expansion' or addon for buildcraft. it is clearly not a stand alone mod... without other mods you can't get items into a tesseract. They dont draw items from chests, you have to PIPE them into it. Am I missing soemthing? How did your mod reduce lag, if people didn't even have access to pipes in their world in the first place?
But at least now I realized something, its not really TE i dislike, it's you. You are very disingenuous, coming upwith these lame arguments. You relied on BC pipes and knew people would use quarries, but then claim you can balance your mod as if someone would install it on its own. You even have CC plugins... but then dont think people will use turtles? Installed on its own, what exactly do i charge with the energetic infuser?
The reality is you know people use TE along with other mods, but then refuse to admit you should think about those mods when balancing the items.
Interestingly, my friends who just started playing the game are all making BC water proof pipes and redstone engines. They have not made quarries yet, and havent figured out turtles. Guess how many players make waterproof pipes once they know how to automine though? Only people who really love BC, humans naturally drift to the strongest option, and you know it. People like to think that they figured out the best option, the fastest path. its part of the challenge and fun of any game. Telling people to use inferior options 'for the lulz' takes that fun away. Sure its fun to create rail systems, but people like to think they found the best way to do something. Why spend days on a rail system when you can just tesseract your stuff right from the quarry?
Oh but you never thought anyone would do that of course, you thought people would install TE and not have quarries. lol.
This is what happens in reality though:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/606524-minecraft/66437023
Railcraft. How is it worth the effort?
The fun. Watch Etho - he can use ender chests, tesseracts, a BILLION different things to transport things a BILLION times more efficiently. Thing is, that's not fun for him. It's FUN to set systems up etc. Not the most practical mod.
i love to make railcraft system with the light system and special track
of course i could just make a portal spawner or transport my items with ender chest and tesseract and whatnot
but whats the fun in that?
I pretty much only use the tanks and the boilers. Oh, and the Blast Furnace.
It's one of those things that seem like it'd be really cool in vanilla Minecraft, but I can't think of any of its main features that aren't outclassed by other mods with similar, simpler items.
Notice how people use other simpler items that outclass the railcraft options? notice how the rail system is fun, but tesseracts are not? Notice how the guy mentions that it is not 'practical'? How do you define what is practical in a mod system like this? you just compare one item vs another, if one is simpler, cheaper, faster and easier, it is more 'practical'. People do this without even thinking about it.
mod authors use this to gain market share. Then claim they thought their mod would be installed stand alone, even though they need BC pipes (or some other mod at least) to even make some of their items work.
The mantra here is that people want to figure out complex systems, solve problems. if the MOD itself solves all the problems and makes the systems simpler... how is it any fun to play the game anymore?