Why don't people like IC2 anymore?

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Dorque

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The difference is that some of the mods you've mentioned actually tell you that you need to be careful, especially TC with its amazing in-game guide. IC2 barely has a working updated wiki, BC sells guides on how to use it, and Railcraft on the other hand does have a nice external guide. At least now IC2 has tooltips that say how much energy something uses or supports.
And sure, there are plenty of FTB wikis, but how do you think the information ended up there in first place? Punishment is okay if you can understand exactly why you got punished, so you don't do the same thing in the future.
Oh, I'll give you that, and if you follow my post history in this thread you'll notice I'm not much of a fan of the mod these days myself ;)

I do, however, feel that "punishment for goofing" is perfectly acceptable design and far more prevalent than people seem to think. A lot of people act like IC2 is the only mod to ever make things explode on you, when, putting aside recent changes and bugs with the energy net, it's actually much more forgiving than some.

Try making a really complex spell in AM2 sometime; forget to bring just one ingredient with you and you've got seconds before your altar explodes violently. I've only heard rumours about all the different things the TC4 infusion altar can do to you but they don't seem pleasant either and "instability" is baked right into the process; you can't eliminate it entirely.

What it boils down to is that while I have a lot of issues with the new IC2, I think "but its machines explode" is a fallacious argument.

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kaovalin

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Visually speaking i like TE a lot more than IC. From a functional standpoint as well. Also tesseracts. Also i dont like to make my modpacks overly redundant.

When i thought about upgrading to 1.6.4 from 1.4.7 i knew id need a world reset. When i thought about remaking all those ic2 machines i though to myself "id hate to go thru all that again". Then i saw they added more barriers to entry. Thats when it went bye bye from my modpack.
 

Zenthon_127

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What it boils down to is that while I have a lot of issues with the new IC2, I think "but its machines explode" is a fallacious argument.
I have to agree here. I've never had a huge issue with the machine explosions, and I put up with them from 1.2.5 to 1.5.2. The incredibly intelligent e-net certainly put me over the edge in regard to explosions, but even the devs saw the issue with that.

No, my main issue is the lack of useful content.
 

immibis

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So, uh, you hate it when mods add electricity, because vanilla Minecraft doesn't have electricity?

In IC2, you will be punished because you couldn't place the tranformer upgrades in after you placed down the machine.
You will be punished for not thinking. Instead of doing the same thing over and over, and being frustrated that it explodes in your face every time, perhaps you should turn off the power, drain any power left over in transformers, place the machine, install the upgrades, and then turn on the power.
 

SandGrainOne

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Is anyone able to explain what "difficulty" would mean in the context of tech mods? What would make something harder than something else? Does anyone have any good examples? When answering this question, try also to explain why you picked the mods you picked.
 
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Democretes

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You will be punished for not thinking. Instead of doing the same thing over and over, and being frustrated that it explodes in your face every time, perhaps you should turn off the power, drain any power left over in transformers, place the machine, install the upgrades, and then turn on the power.
This is not thinking, it's memory. I remember that IC2 machines will explode when they get the wrong power voltage. I think when I try and create a trainyard for the first time. There's a significant difference between the two.
 

Golrith

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Is anyone able to explain what "difficulty" would mean in the context of tech mods? What would make something harder than something else? Does anyone have any good examples? When answering this question, try also to explain why you picked the mods you picked.
Well, not just all tech mods but difficulty can be boiled down to:

Resource acquisition - Is the resource rare (Diamonds), or does it have some form of protection (Wither)? A rare/defended resource takes longer to acquire which can be equated as difficult. But it it takes too long, then you approach Tedium.

Crafting - Does the item require a short or a long crafting process. A long crafting process is not always good, especially if it's forcing the player to stand at a crafting table and run back and forth frequently for materials. While not difficult, it's perceived as difficult when in fact it's just tedium. Some examples would be the carts from Steves Cart and the Digital Miner from Mekanism. The Steves Cart crafting gets quite boring with pointless steps, meanwhile the Digital Miner also has a lot of different steps for crafting, but involves various different machines (built one the other night, enjoyed building everything needed to craft this item).

Use of placed block - Can the block be figured out from supplied GUI, or do you need to consult an external guide?

Sense of Reward - If something is "difficult" but doesn't give the player a sense of achievement/reward, then the item in question needs to be reviewed. Either the resources, crafting or usage of the item need to be reviewed.

In all cases, they are affected by time. If things take too long, Difficulty moves to Tedium, once at Tedium stage, that's when people stop liking the mod they are using.
That's why I'm not keen on TC4 research, it's basically making me spend longer time at a "crafting table" just to unlock the item to be crafted, and it's already made things longer by running around scanning for aspects.

It's all a subjective thing and isn't really about difficulty, but tedium. When people get bored, they also can get angry. Hence topics such as this and many others.

Hence why the extra crafting steps in IC2 are seen as "stupid". Personally those extras should have been a Tier 2 item. First you can craft a machine in a vanilla minecraft way. It works, but isn't really efficient (perhaps it has no upgrade slots, limited inventory, etc), if you want to improve it, then you'll need your wire cutters, etc. So you can start using the mod for the basics, then take the plunge into more involved crafting chains if you want to advance in that mod. Naturally the Tier 1 item can be upgraded to the next tier, or you can craft the tier 2 item directly.


I'm still waiting for IC2 to add some crazy industrial machine system that auto-taps rubber trees for their sap. Shouldn't have to rely on other mods for auto-gathering that much needed resource. I remember one of the first things I tried doing with IC2 and RP2 back in 1.2.5 was seeing if there was any auto-tapping system I could build. All failed, but it was a fun project.

Edit: Hmm, seems I like to use the word Hence a bit too much :p
 

Siro

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Jul 29, 2019
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The only things I miss from IC are the mining laser and compressing coal into diamonds.

If you don't want to use ic2 at all, I'd recommend bcTools as a non-ic2 alternative. It has mj powered armor/tools similar to ic2's as well as a heat press for making diamonds out of coal (among other things) in addition to other stuff.

That being said, having fully tried out the new ic2-experimental in Monster, it's really not all that bad. It's obviously not finished though, but at least nothing explodes at the moment. I like the idea of the RTG and basically ended up using nuclear inefficiently to enrich my uranium to plutonium (just uranium fuel cells and heat vents in a reactor with no additional chambers). I wasn't hurting at all for power generation because Engineer's Toolbox has an EU adapter that converts RF to EU. Drums are like super buckets so I didn't even have to set up a tank for UUM and one guy on the server managed to find enough Iridium in thaumcraft dungeons to make at least one piece of the quantum suit (which now features an integrated jetpack). Basically it's really easy in that pack. I could see it being a lot harder by itself or with Gregtech.
 

RavynousHunter

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Gotta agree with Golrith, one thing IC2 critically needs is a way to automate the collection of resin from its trees, it'd make shit a hell of a lot simpler without having to resort to MFR or Forestry. Granted, IC2 doesn't have much when it comes to item transport, the other half of true automation, but a lot of that can be handled with vanilla hoppers, if you're of a mind to do so.

The funny thing is, my main gripe with IC2 has always been the wrenching and explosions. As has been said many times before, there's ways to disable a machine other than physically destroying it. You could even have each machine require a different repair component: a macerator would need a grinder head, a compressor would need a pneumatic servo or somesuch, and so on. Its simple, makes people think, and punishes "bad" behaviour while not being overbearing. Currently, IC2's explosions are like beating your child with a bullwhip for accidentally breaking a single toy, then destroying not only said toy, but any toy within a square meter of the first one; its complete overkill.

Let's look at two other explosion mechanics: BC combustion engines and Railcraft boilers. Combustion engines blow up if they run for too long without coolant. Its not immediate, and gives you time to fix the malfunction or at least turn the engine off before things go pear-shaped. They don't immediately blow up upon placement if they're missing a coolant source, either. Railcraft boilers are roughly the same: they blow up if they run out of water, and have it reintroduced to the thing while its still hot. Its perfectly logical and is something anyone with a basic grasp on physics (read, anyone who's gotten past middle school) can understand intuitively. It makes sense, and more importantly, it gives you time to fix the problem before shit goes down Blow The Fuck Up Avenue. IC2 doesn't give you any time at all; you put a machine down on a power line that's 1 EU/t over its maximum voltage, it blows the hell up immediately. It doesn't beep, it doesn't give you a chance to check or anything, it just goes straight to exploding.

At least give us mistake-making, imperfect humans an opportunity to realize we screwed up before blowing our crap up. Make the machine turn red, make it whistle a sea shanty for a few seconds, anything! All I ask is for some freaking warning or at least lead time to get a handle on the situation.
 

Siro

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At least give us mistake-making, imperfect humans an opportunity to realize we screwed up before blowing our crap up. Make the machine turn red, make it whistle a sea shanty for a few seconds, anything! All I ask is for some freaking warning or at least lead time to get a handle on the situation.

Well they don't explode anymore (at all)... At least until they finish/fix the energy network stuff anyway. Maybe we'll get lucky and player will add Greg's code for not blowing up a machine unless it has both too much power and stuff to process. Or at least Greg's configs for turning off explosions. Or maybe just the red "not configured properly" dot when it's getting the wrong power.

Also, making something blow up is easy. Making it do other stuff before blowing up is relatively harder. Which is probably why they just blew up.
 

AlanEsh

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At least give us mistake-making, imperfect humans an opportunity to realize we screwed up before blowing our crap up. Make the machine turn red, make it whistle a sea shanty for a few seconds, anything! All I ask is for some freaking warning or at least lead time to get a handle on the situation.
Yes that will give us time to wrench it and have it randomly turn into a machine block at least :D
 

[JBG]Magikarp

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Jul 29, 2019
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Danger is most certainly a game balancing factor and a good one at that. It may not fit your personal game style but to anyone who wants challenge, danger is a necessity. Minecraft vanilla itself implements danger outside all but creative mode. Can you imagine playing minecraft survival where their was no risk in walking out doors at night, or mining in unlit caves. If a player wants better diamond tools he must travel deeper into the dangerous caves.

This is the problem behind all this TE3 vs IC2/Buildcraft crap. Its a battle between those who want quick and snappy against those who enjoy challenge. As for IC2, remember it's experimental. Under normal IC2 circumstances if something blows up its the users fault for not configuring their set up correctly.

Of course you can balance power with danger, but ONLY when something is really op, which IC2 just isn't, for it's extreme high cost energy it is actually underpowered
 

kaovalin

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It would be neat if it IC2 machines complained by making really high voltage sounds then shocked entities around it within 3 cubic blocks. After a semi short countdown of 20 seconds, then it explodes. I mean, unless its on, it wont complete a circuit internally to cause it to short out.
 

Dorque

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It would be neat if it IC2 machines complained by making really high voltage sounds then shocked entities around it within 3 cubic blocks. After a semi short countdown of 20 seconds, then it explodes. I mean, unless its on, it wont complete a circuit internally to cause it to short out.
Honestly, I was rather a fan of the mention of fuses. Make grades of fuse based on voltage tiers, screw up your power, the fuse blows instead of the machine, assuming you've installed one.

So if you blow an HV fuse, maybe you lose a few diamonds and have to replace it.

It's a good balance between a punishment mechanic and the reality that people don't like to leave large craters in their base.

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Alcheya

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Jul 29, 2019
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This is the problem behind all this TE3 vs IC2/Buildcraft crap. Its a battle between those who want quick and snappy and to spend 15 minutes making a wrench against those who enjoy challenge don't.
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This is the problem behind all this TE3 vs IC2/Buildcraft crap. Its a battle between those who want quick and snappy and think machines should waste energy while not doing anything against those who enjoy challenge don't.
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This is the problem behind all this TE3 vs IC2/Buildcraft crap. Its a battle between those who want quick and snappy and energy to make sense against those who enjoy challenge don't.
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This is the problem behind all this TE3 vs IC2/Buildcraft crap. Its a battle between those who want quick and snappy and item transport/machines to be more intuitive against those who enjoy challenge don't.
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Fixed these for you and gave you a few options. There are several reasons why TE is the top dog at the moment. To discredit all that it has to offer and say "it's not as challenging" is nonsense. Obviously most people are still using the other mods in conjunction with TE, so stating it "lacks challenge" doesn't necessarily have any merit since these other mods are supposedly giving us a "challenge."

In essence you can also argue that "redpower" lacked "challenge" because suddenly you have no need to understand a lot of redstone mechanics as everything is conveniently in single block form. Actually, with that, you can say ic2 and every other tech mod in the packs "lack challenge" because eventually you're using a mod to do what you can do in vanilla with a ton of time, walking back and forth, mining, etc..

My challenge doesn't come from getting basic materials and machines, it comes when I have my main base set up so I can make something with all these resources. It comes from exploring new mods, making new sources of entertainment and setting goals. If IC2 or BC were only being used as a standalone, I can see the current changes as something great to add to the gameplay and longevity of the mod playtime.

Unfortunately I don't know anyone who uses JUST IC/BC/TE in their modded minecraft experience. All of the "tech mods" are stepping stones to something more. The further you make the distance or the more obstacles you put in from Point A to Point B, the less people are going to want to walk it. Especially when C, D, E, etc.. are the ultimate goal.
 
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kaovalin

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Honestly, I was rather a fan of the mention of fuses. Make grades of fuse based on voltage tiers, screw up your power, the fuse blows instead of the machine, assuming you've installed one.

So if you blow an HV fuse, maybe you lose a few diamonds and have to replace it.

It's a good balance between a punishment mechanic and the reality that people don't like to leave large craters in their base.

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From a gameplay perspective, would those fuses be placed into the machine during the crafting? With IC2's current development choices I think it would be right up their alley to add another crafting thinggy :).
 
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