Why don't people like IC2 anymore?

[MoosyDoosy]

Granted, I haven't gone far enough into IC2 to really know what the Metal Former is for, but depending on what you're doing, I'm guessing Mekanism will probably provide some substitute, which will be a lot easier to implement.



Again, Mekanism is the answer here. Truthfully, IC2's voltages were always something I considered a redundant nuisance, because there was virtually no use for medium voltage at all, and your machines always needed low. The power loss over distance was also always that high that for me it never justified stepping up and down, and laying cables over long distances, either. The best part here, however, is that you can still use IC2's machines for power generation, and then use Mekanism's cables for transport.



Like I said, for me redundancy is always a good thing. At the low end, getting started in IC2 still seems to be a bit cheaper than Thermal Expansion, and aside from the tiresome wrench mechanic, the machines have always been easy to set up and use, as well. If I've got plenty of rubber and the more basic metals lying around, and I'm in a jam, I can throw together an old school ore processing system very quickly, and I'm familiar enough with BC pipes (as previously mentioned) that using them doesn't bother me.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not suggesting continuing to use IC2 if you really don't like it. The new Metal Former and hammer/cutter tedium notwithstanding, however, IC2 does still seem to have fairly smooth, easy progression for the most part; it and Mekanism are truthfully still a lot less tedious than the molten redstone tier for me is with Thermal Expansion. I truthfully don't bother going past TE's basic liquiducts and item ducts; the infrastructure for them is simply too painful, and I can get what they would give me in other ways. I also don't actually like "smart" piping so much, because virtually none of the new systems with linked state routing, still have the level of fine grained control that RP2 did, and TE is no real exception.

Again, I'm not bashing TE here. It also has its' uses. The Autonomous Activator in particular is invaluable for me. It's just that I find that what I tend to do, is build a bit here and a bit there from a lot of different mods, skip most of the really painful stuff, and then lean on Mekanism as a bridge system for tying it all together, and the old BC pipes for transport. It's ad hoc, but because I don't play SMP, it works extremely well.

Hm, to me it seems that you only use IC2 for its early game mechanics like ore doubling and such. That is not what other people complaining about here. And also, the IC2 early game mechanics are very easy to replace by other mods. Making IC2 machines require a hammer, a cutter, wires, plates, having to remake hammer and cutter when they break, and you have to harvest rubber. For Thermal Expansion, all you need to do is do your early game mining, find some sand and clay, smelt your ores, and make your machines. TE does not need little annoying fiddly parts, IC2 does. And you say you only need early IC2 power. You're clearly not using late game IC2 machines. The rest of us used IC2 to make UU matter to replicate stuff and to make Quantum armor. That requires a LOT of energy, so we have to make complex energy systems. And complex energy systems are hard to keep track of so one wrong wire = boom, your super expensive Replicator gone. That's punishing, and requires some pre knowledge of wires and such. And even for a veteran like me, I accidentally had two wires connecting and my Replicator exploded as well as my whole line of machines. People make mistakes, but they should not be punished like that in such a manner. TE instead makes it intuitive, if no power is transferring, obviously something is wrong. You try out different configurations, and you can figure it out by yourself. Try experimenting like that with IC2 and deal with a machine exploding in your face every time you try to figure how the power system works.
And we also discussed that the late game IC2 is also very subpar. You have to make machines to make more machines. The Extractor is practically mandatory because cooking 1 by 1 rubber seriously sucks. (The Metal Former btw sucks, because it's slow as shit, and you need to make Overclockers for it, and btw Overclockers are seriously annoying to make). The Quantum Armor is replaced by the awesomely utility epic Modular Powersuits. The tools are replaced by Tinker's Construct to the extent that you don't need to bother with a drill. The only really good thing is the Induction Furnace which is why I go through all the IC2 trouble for it, and I'm pretty sure that there are other mods with super fast furnaces.
You also state that you know how BC pipes work so you don't need to bother with all of the TE stuff. Well, what about for a beginner? Not everyone starts out with a full knowledge of BC pipes. And they're obscure to the point where it's difficult to figure stuff out. Even now I'm still confused with some of the pipes but that's because I've never really had to use BC ever. TE pipes are easy to play around with and figure out. Also, TE pipes look so much better and only require some early game mining to get the opaque versions. No glass needed.

 

[PierceSG]

...The only really good thing is the Induction Furnace which is why I go through all the IC2 trouble for it, and I'm pretty sure that there are other mods with super fast furnaces...

Give Mekanism a try, the Energized Smelter with 8 speed upgrades and energy storage upgrades is comparable. And you can upgrade it into a basic/advancec/elite factory to handle 3/5/7 stacks of items at once. Even if you aren't smelting 3/5/7 stacks of items, there is an Auto-sort setting that will make the factory spread the stack of items over all available slots.

All in all, give Mekanism a try.

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[ShneekeyTheLost]

Are you saying that "powerful and dangerous" is less balanced than "medium-power but completely safe"?

No, what I am trying to say is that 'dangerous' is never a good balance point for 'powerful'.

Punishing /= Difficult. Punishing should not be used to try and balance powerful, because it is a jerk-move and doesn't really accomplish the task.

Dangerous is a very bad thing to try to use as a balancing factor, because either it will be mitigated or never used. No one wants dangerous things in their base, particularly not when it contains punitive consequences like blowing up everything in the area, including possibly expensive machines or other 'valuable' resources. So it doesn't really matter what it is, if it carries the chance of blowing up not only itself but everything nearby, that's just not going to happen. I would never plant TNT in my base, so why should I plant other potentially explosive blocks?

If you look at various dynamics which makes up a game, Punishing or Dangerous is NOT something which can balance Power. You are using the wrong mechanic. It isn't just comparing apples and oranges, it would be like a bookstore saying "Oh, we're sorry but we are out of the Thomas the Tank Engine books you requested, so we're sending you some Ann Rice novels instead". That just isn't going to fly. Wrong genre.

 

[SlightlyVisible]

No, what I am trying to say is that 'dangerous' is never a good balance point for 'powerful'.

Punishing /= Difficult. Punishing should not be used to try and balance powerful, because it is a jerk-move and doesn't really accomplish the task.

Dangerous is a very bad thing to try to use as a balancing factor, because either it will be mitigated or never used. No one wants dangerous things in their base, particularly not when it contains punitive consequences like blowing up everything in the area, including possibly expensive machines or other 'valuable' resources. So it doesn't really matter what it is, if it carries the chance of blowing up not only itself but everything nearby, that's just not going to happen. I would never plant TNT in my base, so why should I plant other potentially explosive blocks?

If you look at various dynamics which makes up a game, Punishing or Dangerous is NOT something which can balance Power. You are using the wrong mechanic. It isn't just comparing apples and oranges, it would be like a bookstore saying "Oh, we're sorry but we are out of the Thomas the Tank Engine books you requested, so we're sending you some Ann Rice novels instead". That just isn't going to fly. Wrong genre.

Danger is most certainly a game balancing factor and a good one at that. It may not fit your personal game style but to anyone who wants challenge, danger is a necessity. Minecraft vanilla itself implements danger outside all but creative mode. Can you imagine playing minecraft survival where their was no risk in walking out doors at night, or mining in unlit caves. If a player wants better diamond tools he must travel deeper into the dangerous caves.

This is the problem behind all this TE3 vs IC2/Buildcraft crap. Its a battle between those who want quick and snappy against those who enjoy challenge. As for IC2, remember it's experimental. Under normal IC2 circumstances if something blows up its the users fault for not configuring their set up correctly.

 

[Dorque]

This is the problem behind all this TE3 vs IC2/Buildcraft crap. Its a battle between those who want quick and snappy against those who enjoy challenge. As for IC2, remember it's experimental. Under normal IC2 circumstances if something blows up its the users fault for not configuring their set up correctly.

After everything that's been said in this thread, I honestly cannot believe you just said that.

No. No, no, no, no, no. Bad. Go lie down.

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[RedBoss]

Danger is most certainly a game balancing factor and a good one at that. It may not fit your personal game style but to anyone who wants challenge, danger is a necessity. Minecraft vanilla itself implements danger outside all but creative mode. Can you imagine playing minecraft survival where their was no risk in walking out doors at night, or mining in unlit caves. If a player wants better diamond tools he must travel deeper into the dangerous caves.

This is the problem behind all this TE3 vs IC2/Buildcraft crap. Its a battle between those who want quick and snappy against those who enjoy challenge. As for IC2, remember it's experimental. Under normal IC2 circumstances if something blows up its the users fault for not configuring their set up correctly.

The danger of monsters attacking has zero to do with placing a machine. Also there's no real difference in complexity between block placement of a basic ic2 or TE ore processing system. The only difference is that one could explode. That's not danger, it's punishment.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Danger is most certainly a game balancing factor and a good one at that. It may not fit your personal game style but to anyone who wants challenge, danger is a necessity. Minecraft vanilla itself implements danger outside all but creative mode. Can you imagine playing minecraft survival where their was no risk in walking out doors at night, or mining in unlit caves. If a player wants better diamond tools he must travel deeper into the dangerous caves.

That is an appropriate Risk/Reward dynamic, and does indeed have its place within a game. However, that does not, in the least, excuse a punitive and punishing concequence for small mistakes. If you fall down a ravine, that's your own dang fault. Accidentally placing a cable or a machine and have half your factory blow up? No.

This is the problem behind all this TE3 vs IC2/Buildcraft crap. Its a battle between those who want quick and snappy against those who enjoy challenge.

Again, wrong. It has far more to do with user-friendliness, intuitiveness, and low computation-resource (as opposed to In Game resource, which it is actually the most expensive) than it is between 'quick and snappy against those who enjoy a challenge.

As for IC2, remember it's experimental. Under normal IC2 circumstances if something blows up its the users fault for not configuring their set up correctly.

This is absolutely true that it is still experimental. This is why I am reserving judgement until they come out with a 'release' version. However, the current version, bluntly, stinks on ice.

 

[SlightlyVisible]

The danger of monsters attacking has zero to do with placing a machine. Also there's no real difference in complexity between block placement of a basic ic2 or TE ore processing system. The only difference is that one could explode. That's not danger, the punishment.

Uhm? If a machine will explode if connected wrong then OFCOURSE there's more complexity in its placement. The punishment IS the danger

 

[SlightlyVisible]

That is an appropriate Risk/Reward dynamic, and does indeed have its place within a game. However, that does not, in the least, excuse a punitive and punishing concequence for small mistakes. If you fall down a ravine, that's your own dang fault. Accidentally placing a cable or a machine and have half your factory blow up? No.


Again, wrong. It has far more to do with user-friendliness, intuitiveness, and low computation-resource (as opposed to In Game resource, which it is actually the most expensive) than it is between 'quick and snappy against those who enjoy a challenge.
Really?

This is absolutely true that it is still experimental. This is why I am reserving judgement until they come out with a 'release' version. However, the current version, bluntly, stinks on ice.

1. It's still the users fault. Remember you can't judge all mods by the same standard of balance. IC2 tries to be a bit more challenging with its system. That means ALWAYS being aware of what you're doing. It might be difficult for some users however its obvious IC2 has already lost them. There opinion no longer matters. IC2 is best to keep it's fanbase happy and that means a higher more risk tech progression.

2. Then why is this entire section filled with users who can't understand that IC2 is balanced differently for a reason, balance which it's fans enjoy. It's not everyone's cake but that only their opinion.

3. They certainly need get there energy-net finalized, that's for sure.

 

[RedBoss]

Uhm? If a machine will explode if connected wrong then OFCOURSE there's more complexity in its placement. The punishment IS the danger

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Your logic simply does not compute in relation to my idea of game play or the base game of Minecraft. Or reality for that matter. Nothing that I plug in can explode in my house. Nothing in vanilla Minecraft explodes after you place it except TNT next to an active redstone signal.

 

[PierceSG]

I prefer RotaryCraft's method in telling you that something isn't working out fine by having those sparks and grinding sound, except for the steam engine which I'm not sure if there is any early warning symptoms or not when I use lava to heat them...

 

[immibis]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Your logic simply does not compute in relation to my idea of game play or the base game of Minecraft. Nothing in vanilla Minecraft explodes after you place it except TNT next to an active redstone signal.

Nothing in vanilla Minecraft has electricity.

 

[portablejim]

Or reality for that matter. Nothing that I plug in can explode in my house.

Part of the reason is there are protections in place to stop you putting things in the wrong place. We now have smart transformers so that Americans who come to Australia don't blow their equipment when they connect it to our 240V power. You might also have a surge protector on your computer to stop unexpected voltage spikes from damaging components. ALthough, the closets thing to exploding you would get now-a-days is a laptop fire.

 

[RedBoss]

Nothing in vanilla Minecraft has electricity.

Exactly

 

[Dorque]

Part of the reason is there are protections in place to stop you putting things in the wrong place. We now have smart transformers so that Americans who come to Australia don't blow their equipment when they connect it to our 240V power. You might also have a surge protector on your computer to stop unexpected voltage spikes from damaging components. ALthough, the closets thing to exploding you would get now-a-days is a laptop fire.

Made me think of this:

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[Democretes]

Uhm? If a machine will explode if connected wrong then OF COURSE there's more complexity in its placement. The punishment IS the danger

In real life, you don't kill someone because you will be punished by the law.

In IC2, you will be punished because you couldn't place the tranformer upgrades in after you placed down the machine.

It may just be me, but there's a difference in the definition of "punishment" between these.

 

[SlightlyVisible]

In real life, you don't kill someone because you will be punished by the law.

In IC2, you will be punished because you couldn't place the tranformer upgrades in after you placed down the machine.

It may just be me, but there's a difference in the definition of "punishment" between these.

How did we wind up talking about punishments in real life ? Yes punishments exist in many different forms. For example the punishment of staying underwater in minecraft is suffocation. IC2's operates with balancing risks and rewards? You want to double ores (reward) awesome, however you better set your machines up right. Sure not all games operate like that but many do.[DOUBLEPOST=1389843592][/DOUBLEPOST]

Exactly

Exactly is right. Ic2 adds electricity. Ic2 adds a new game-play mechanic. IC2 also adds a new risk to using that mechanic without consideration. Games can't all be about the reward.

 

[DrowElf]

Nothing in vanilla Minecraft has electricity.

*facepalm*
Totally not the point.

1. It's still the users fault. Remember you can't judge all mods by the same standard of balance. IC2 tries to be a bit more challenging with its system. That means ALWAYS being aware of what you're doing. It might be difficult for some users however its obvious IC2 has already lost them. There opinion no longer matters. IC2 is best to keep it's fanbase happy and that means a higher more risk tech progression.

2. Then why is this entire section filled with users who can't understand that IC2 is balanced differently for a reason, balance which it's fans enjoy. It's not everyone's cake but that only their opinion.

3. They certainly need get there energy-net finalized, that's for sure.

First of all, "their" not "there." Normally I wouldn't care but you got it wrong every time.

Second, by admitting that the energy net is flawed, you somewhat invalidate your previous statements that other people are stupid for disliking it because it is bugged (if that isn't what you meant, don't say stuff like "There opinion no longer matters").
___


Personally I am less concerned by the problems with the energy system than I am with the over-complication of recipes. I would be fine with the extra steps if the metal former got an Advanced version that allowed you to make the items much faster. I think most people would be fine if the advanced version got split into 3 machines (1 for each mode) just for the sake of speed.

 

[Dorque]

Truth be told, I don't actually mind the "punishment" angle. It's like a puzzle; you have to work it out before you start slapping pieces in willy-nilly.

I also think people forget how punishing Buildcraft could be. I still have plenty of large holes in some of my early bases, before I understood BC fully. And even as recently as Unleashed I got distracted and blew up a few combustion engines. Even Railcraft boilers will leave quite an impressive crater if you fudge them. And yet, IC2 catches all the flak for exploding machinery.

Y'see, I think people get upset about the "punishment" angle for two reasons; the significant one is that the energy net in recent builds of IC2 is buggy and makes no damned sense.

The one that shouldn't matter, but that people take very seriously nevertheless, is that after the days where IC2 and BC were THE big mods, many more mods came out that didn't include such mechanics and they've come to feel entitled to it.

Consider: many of the major magic mods also have punishing mechanics; I've blown the hell out of my house with both TC4 and AM2, as well as fluxing the hell out of the local area, but people don't raise a stink about those.

Meaning no offense to them, if mods like TE, which offers simple, risk-free power generation hadn't come out, it wouldn't occur to anyone to be having this discussion.

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[Revemohl]

The difference is that some of the mods you've mentioned actually tell you that you need to be careful, especially TC with its amazing in-game guide. IC2 barely has a working updated wiki, BC sells guides on how to use it, and Railcraft on the other hand does have a nice external guide. At least now IC2 has tooltips that say how much energy something uses or supports.
And sure, there are plenty of FTB wikis, but how do you think the information ended up there in first place? Punishment is okay if you can understand exactly why you got punished, so you don't do the same thing in the future.