Why do you like hardmode/grindy minecraft?

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Ritt

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Jul 29, 2019
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I agree 100 percent with the Thaumcraft love... it is truly a work of art and such a nifty piece of game design. But I too find the research to be tedious at this point.

Everyone probably realizes this, but there is a flag in the config file for Thaumcraft that allows one to cheat in completed research from creative mode. I am normally all about avoiding cheats, but this is one of those things where I'm happy to have the cheat available.
 
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Cptqrk

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I see the theme of TC's research being tedious after doing it once or twice.

How is this not different or worse than having to make plates to cut to wires many more times to make machines any different?

I agree to a point tho' the cheaty Thaumonomacon is quite useful, but as I stated before, for me I only will use it after the 2nd or 3rd play through of the mod. There are not only cheat sheets, but also an entire thread here on the forums with screen shots of the "finished" researches by item (up to KAMMI).
 

asb3pe

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I agree 100 percent with the Thaumcraft love... it is truly a work of art and such a nifty piece of game design. But I too find the research to be tedious at this point.

Everyone probably realizes this, but there is a flag in the config file for Thaumcraft that allows one to cheat in completed research from creative mode. I am normally all about avoiding cheats, but this is one of those things where I'm happy to have the cheat available.

Yeah, agreed - I can't stress enough that I think, as mods go, Thaumcraft is by far one of the most incredible ones. It truly is a magical mod in every way, with some incredible, amazing stuff in it. It is unfortunate that it's a "fact of FTB life" that when new modpacks are released, we are going to have to re-do something we've done multiple times before, and the most unfortunate part is that we might begin to have negative feelings towards an otherwise brilliant mod. It's unfair to the mods to hold this against them in any way. I think everybody knows that, but I just wanted to say it anyway.

I see the theme of TC's research being tedious after doing it once or twice.

How is this not different or worse than having to make plates to cut to wires many more times to make machines any different?

We can automate plate production using our machines, the manditory "hand-construction" phase of plate-making is very short once you've got it down. TC seems to have gone out of it's way (hello Deconstruction Table) to try and eliminate the possibility of us automating primal aspect production. In fact, I went outside of the game and used an AFK mouse-clicker and some hoppers to work around that unfortunate design decision. LOL Hey, I completely understand it was done for "balance" - if you allow automation of primal aspects during "early-game" TC, you defeat the whole purpose and turn it into a trivial exercise. But... isn't that what we do as Minecrafters? Figure out how to automate everything, no matter how big or how small? :)
 
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E_DM_B

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I feel like I would enjoy hard mode (but not grind) minecraft if I had more time for it. ATM the only way I can get enough time to achieve anything in FTB is buffing ore gen quite a bit so I don't have to spend as much time mining.
 

YX33A

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Yeah, agreed - I can't stress enough that I think, as mods go, Thaumcraft is by far one of the most incredible ones. It truly is a magical mod in every way, with some incredible, amazing stuff in it. It is unfortunate that it's a "fact of FTB life" that when new modpacks are released, we are going to have to re-do something we've done multiple times before, and the most unfortunate part is that we might begin to have negative feelings towards an otherwise brilliant mod. It's unfair to the mods to hold this against them in any way. I think everybody knows that, but I just wanted to say it anyway.



We can automate plate production using our machines, the manditory "hand-construction" phase of plate-making is very short once you've got it down. TC seems to have gone out of it's way (hello Deconstruction Table) to try and eliminate the possibility of us automating primal aspect production. In fact, I went outside of the game and used an AFK mouse-clicker and some hoppers to work around that unfortunate design decision. LOL Hey, I completely understand it was done for "balance" - if you allow automation of primal aspects during "early-game" TC, you defeat the whole purpose and turn it into a trivial exercise. But... isn't that what we do as Minecrafters? Figure out how to automate everything, no matter how big or how small? :)
I may just have found my nemesis, folks.

My main "beef" with TC isn't the grindy research system that is always easy enough to ignore and just turn on easy mode research, nor the fact that easy mode research makes it less easy then the hard mode research if you have the time to spend on the mini-game, but the fact that it looks quite magical, but acts very technological by it's very design goal.
Here's my take on why TC is barely a Magic mod: Internal VS External. Soft styles VS Hard styles. Ying VS Yang. Etc Etc...
A magic mod is in a great many ways about YOU! What YOU can do. Why YOU can do it. How long YOU trained(off screen usually) and practiced, or what fancy snack YOU ate, or what esoteric ritual YOU preformed.
For instance! Wicthery and Infusion. No, not infusing your cat, or that broom you use, but YOU! Fancy stuff, needs you to play it safe and do smart things, and quite frankly, it is truly magical. AM2 as another example; take a normal book, and a normal item frame, locate pool of weird liquid glowy magical stuff, place frame near stuff, add book. Watch the light show. Take back book. Neato burrito, you're now a very weak mage, with the gift and not much else!
And the funny bit? While with Witchery you have to, every now and then, go back to your base to recharge your power with a special ritual, and in AM2, you need to use a block to unlock new skills, and use a cool crafting system to make new spells, one of which is fairly portable but the other isn't due to it occasionally needing other fancy things, both are more magical them TC 4.1 for a very simple reason: While both may require you to go home once in a while, TC needs you to go home quite often. You need to charge you wand. True, that can be done in field by locating aura nodes, or killing things...
But in AM2 your mana comes back no matter what you do. And in Witchery, you are barely holding the power in yourself anyway. Your body wasn't made for that kind of abuse.

And most importantly...
What happens if you give someone your wand, and maybe your focus pouch? They can do pretty much anything you can do. Your armor that repairs itself? Doesn't care if you wear it. That blade that sends foes flying and strikes them with chain lightning? A great gift for a neophyte.
You are just a fella who makes magical stuff. Not a "Mage". Maybe an Enchanter. Maybe a Tinkerer. Maybe even a Thamaturgist.
But basically just an Engineer who works mainly on "magical stuff".

If your tools and armor are why you are powerful, and if lost or given away, you have no real power beyond the ability to create such tools... You are barely any better then a Tech user. Your powered armor with it's jetpack and energy shielding may keep you safe, and your glove may hit like a truck, mine anything you want to mine, do anything you need it to do, and have a coil gun built into it...
But give those away, or lose them, and you are about as powerful as the average joe again.

Take a mage's spell book, what happens? You don't become as powerful as he was. And chances are, the mage then casts a small spells they keep out of the spellbook and blast you and half the city you're both in into subatomic particles.
 

zilvarwolf

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I see the theme of TC's research being tedious after doing it once or twice.

How is this not different or worse than having to make plates to cut to wires many more times to make machines any different?
Simply put, I have to research things I have no interest in in order to unlock things that I am interested in. If I'm making machine frames and redstone conductance coils, it's because I'm making a machine that uses them, and it's something that I plan to use Right Now (or, at least, soon).

But if I want to unlock the X, I probably have to research A through W to get there, most of which I will never use, or will never use again.

If I make an induction smelter, or a refinery, or a plate-bending machine, or a coil magnetizing thingy, or..anything, it's going to be used over, and over, and over.
 

GreenZombie

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Jul 29, 2019
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Simply put, I have to research things I have no interest in in order to unlock things that I am interested in. If I'm making machine frames and redstone conductance coils, it's because I'm making a machine that uses them, and it's something that I plan to use Right Now (or, at least, soon).

But if I want to unlock the X, I probably have to research A through W to get there, most of which I will never use, or will never use again.

If I make an induction smelter, or a refinery, or a plate-bending machine, or a coil magnetizing thingy, or..anything, it's going to be used over, and over, and over.

You clearly have not been playing Thaumcraft 4.1 with a good attitude :p I mean - while there is *some* content gating, the 4.1 research system means you can, for the most part, research directly to what you want. You obviously need to research infusion crafting before researching, say, sword of the Zephyr, but all the research Thaumcraft forces you to do now, is the research you need to know to do the craft you want.
 

zilvarwolf

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You clearly have not been playing Thaumcraft 4.1 with a good attitude :p I mean - while there is *some* content gating, the 4.1 research system means you can, for the most part, research directly to what you want. You obviously need to research infusion crafting before researching, say, sword of the Zephyr, but all the research Thaumcraft forces you to do now, is the research you need to know to do the craft you want.
Well, no, I played it with a good attitude...I just no longer have the good attitude :)

And while your statement is technically correct... with my current attitude toward the minigame it feels slightly duplicitous, since you typically have to research quite a few things in order to get to the infrastructure necessary to be able to research directly to what you want.
 
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malicious_bloke

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Jul 28, 2013
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Yes, some of the progression in thaumcraft is gated so you can't just dive straight for the endgame stuff, ignoring the rest. This is both sensible and fairly common.

The very fact you can choose your research direction at all is a life-affirming joy that makes me feel all tingly when I think of the randomised horrors of the TC3 research system...
 

Golrith

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Nov 11, 2012
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Yes, some of the progression in thaumcraft is gated so you can't just dive straight for the endgame stuff, ignoring the rest. This is both sensible and fairly common.

The very fact you can choose your research direction at all is a life-affirming joy that makes me feel all tingly when I think of the randomised horrors of the TC3 research system...
Oh the joys of wanting simple item X that shares common aspects with 20 other items, including everyones favorite - The Theory of Everything.
TC4.1 is less of a grind as you can target what you want more.
 

midi_sec

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Jul 29, 2019
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You are just a fella who makes magical stuff. Not a "Mage". Maybe an Enchanter. Maybe a Tinkerer. Maybe even a Thamaturgist.
But basically just an Engineer who works mainly on "magical stuff".

If your tools and armor are why you are powerful, and if lost or given away, you have no real power beyond the ability to create such tools... You are barely any better then a Tech user. Your powered armor with it's jetpack and energy shielding may keep you safe, and your glove may hit like a truck, mine anything you want to mine, do anything you need it to do, and have a coil gun built into it...
But give those away, or lose them, and you are about as powerful as the average joe again.

Yep, finally I can drop this without sounding like an uber nerd.

In d&d, such a person would be called an Artificer. I think there's even a tab related to it in the thauminomicon. Basically, yeah, you hit the nail on the head. They build items and can imbue magical properties into them rather than having innate magical ability.
 
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YX33A

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Yep, finally I can drop this without sounding like an uber nerd.

In d&d, such a person would be called an Artificer. I think there's even a tab related to it in the thauminomicon. Basically, yeah, you hit the nail on the head. They build items and can imbue magical properties into them rather than having innate magical ability.
I saw a GURPS 4rd Edition variant for mages; enchantment only. I forget the name of the main mage ability, but enchantment only reduces the cost by 50% IIRC. Same deal, no power beyond enchanting items. They are the batman of the mage schools. No powers, just a lot of wonderful toys.
 

Hoff

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Oct 30, 2012
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In normal survival I enjoy being able to cherry pick what I want from everything. I don't have to have huge sets of infrastructure to get the items I want to work with something else I'm doing. I much prefer the uniqueness and complexity of the implementation of those items in normal survival. Hate mods like Thaumcraft(and generally all magic mods) for this reason.

In a different setting like AgS and Crash Landing I do enjoy very much the progression for pathways given for the first complete run-through. They're great methods of teaching and learning new things as well as how to implement them in new ways. This changes, however, after the first complete, completion for me. After I have a "complete" understanding of everything I dislike needing to work for them again and go back to the normal survival state of preferring to be able to cherry pick whatever I want from a tech tree. Mods like Open blocks, Random things, etc. I absolutely love for the non-gated, but very useful blocks they offer.

On another note this thread, being as peaceful as it has been, makes me so happy. You're all wonderful people.
 

Ieldra

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I may just have found my nemesis, folks.
My main "beef" with TC isn't the grindy research system that is always easy enough to ignore and just turn on easy mode research, nor the fact that easy mode research makes it less easy then the hard mode research if you have the time to spend on the mini-game, but the fact that it looks quite magical, but acts very technological by it's very design goal.
I get you. Completely. In other games, if I play a mage it's exactly for the reason it's all *my* power, part of me in a way a gadget can never be. TC is not like that, but it's a magic mod because it uses an alchemical paradigm to make its tools. It is a magic mod because it fits a world that has magic rather than one based on modern science. It wouldn't fit in a "Tech World" modpack rather than in a "Magic World" modpack.

Also, there's Clarke's Third Law. Applied to this topic, it means that technology can reach a stage where you use it in much the same way as you use magic: as built-in power, part of yourself. Now that's a theme I haven't seen realized in a Minecraft mod yet: transhumanism.

As for the tedium of repeating TC research: TC offers cheat commands that can give you aspects or complete a specific piece of research. I've used that to recreate research lost to a bug, but you can easily use it for more "balanced" cheating.
 
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GreenZombie

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On the one hand I get that, technically, you are correct. But I don't see why you are complaining. There are two mods that implement / were heavilly inspired by Mythic Europe
One, rather directly, took the name of the table top game, and implements the personal spell casting aspect of magic.
Thaumcraft, went the other way, and implemented magical devices - and is all the better for it.

You are, essentially, complaining that Thaumcraft isn't an Ars Magica clone. And I say, yes, it isn't - and I am glad.
 
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YX33A

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On the one hand I get that, technically, you are correct. But I don't see why you are complaining. There are two mods that implement / were heavilly inspired by Mythic Europe
One, rather directly, took the name of the table top game, and implements the personal spell casting aspect of magic.
Thaumcraft, went the other way, and implemented magical devices - and is all the better for it.

You are, essentially, complaining that Thaumcraft isn't an Ars Magica clone. And I say, yes, it isn't - and I am glad.
Okay, first off, u wot m8?
Thaumcraft has been around for ages longer then Ars Magica has been, and Ars Magica has that name because it's Latin; it means Magical Arts.
Second, the spell system in Ars Magica is fairly bog standard as far as magic in games goes, so there is little to no porting/copying of the Ars Magica table top game casting system in there.

And third... Thaumcraft is still magical, but it is very technological in it's implementation. That's what I said, remember? This statement is not positive, nor is it negative, just an observation on the state of things.
 

Celestialphoenix

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Tartarus.. I mean at work. Same thing really.
At its heart- Minecraft is a game about engineering, design, architecture and ingenuity.
Thaumcraft is a mod that builds into those principles. Engineering with magic.
Though if you guys wanted it, I'm sure you can turn a 'tech' based mod into the RPG/Character based gameplay- where you level up in skills like soldering/welding ect to build mechanical weapons. I'm sure you could have some tech research if you really desired it.

Though RPG mechanics don't seem to fit as well into MC, there are plenty of other games that can do it a lot better.
 
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xKazlyn

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Tl;Dr: entire thread lol. My reason for looking hard mode mc is simply I've done everything in easy mode, I prefer mods/configs that make the game itself more grindy, not specific processes more grindy... example, I'd rather have 1/3 the ores spawn over a processing line 3x as long