Why do people like Thermal Expansion so much?

[SlightlyVisible]

It would be nice if TE was a little more PVP friendly, giving players the ability to highjack others machines. That said, its already delivered more in terms of block protection then any of the other big 3.

 

[snooder]

Dream bigger my friend

I'm waiting on something that can produce 10,000 RF/t at the cost of my firstborn child.

I know. I've given up hope of ever seeing numbers that big out of Thermal Expansion ever since King Lemming put the 1000MJ/t limit on conduit connections. I will have to check to see if tesseracts still have a limit on transmitted power per face, but I suspect they do as well. But even with limits preventing truly outrageous power, being able to tinker with small structures would still be nice.

 

[Adonis0]

I know. I've given up hope of ever seeing numbers that big out of Thermal Expansion ever since King Lemming put the 1000MJ/t limit on conduit connections. I will have to check to see if tesseracts still have a limit on transmitted power per face, but I suspect they do as well. But even with limits preventing truly outrageous power, being able to tinker with small structures would still be nice.

(psst. I quoted in RF/t, which is 10 RF = 1 MJ, so numbers that big are possible)

 

[YX33A]

Dream bigger my friend

I'm waiting on something that can produce 10,000 RF/t at the cost of my firstborn child.

I might be able to get you one that outputs 100,000 RF/t for your soul, first two kids, and some lessons in Java coding related to Minecraft.

 

[Mevansuto]

I think Rotary Craft & Eng. Toolbox jumped on the RF API as soon as it was released

@kittle
There's also a LOT of mods that generate RF. For a "single block" that produces large amounts of RF, take a look at Big Reactors. It's a multi block reactor that can be automated and configured to custom sizes. It allows huge energy production.

You could make a pretty decent RF only modpack if you wanted.

 

[rymmie1981]

The thing is, rarer resources take more time to gather..
So the materials cost is something that can be used as a measure because that converts into time

It's better than actually timing yourself actually, because the resources are generated under a random number system, one time it could be really short, and then another time really long. To actually put a useable time on it would require making excessive trips from scratch to get a proper data set. While a materials list is something we can relate to and does not require a big time investment to accurately report.

Time has massive value. Such a high value, in fact, that it can not be said to have a value, because we can not name a price high enough for it. Even worse, we all have only a limited amount of time, and that amount is impossible to track until it is all but gone.

No. Time can not be used to measure how good a method is. It is too valuable. We have to use things we can count and actually measure. Ore counts are easily counted. Time is not.

Time is literally the only precious resource. To point directly to YX33A's post, I completely agree that time is so precious as to be priceless. That is why it is the only resource by which cost can accurately be measured. Rare or not, ingame resources are infinite. Our time as players is not. The time spent gathering those resources is significant, but their relative scarcity is not by any means the only measure of time. How much time will be spent gathering the requisite rubber trees for IC2? Both mods require redstone in their crafting recipes. Redstone requires an iron pick or better, although the bronze pick from IC2 can also be used.

What is required to craft that bronze pickaxe? Is that time less than, or the same, as the time to simply make the iron pickaxe? TE3 has the additional requirement of silver. It is likely, although not guaranteed, that you will find silver on the way to getting the redstone. The extra time may or may not be significant which is why it must be measured. I'm also pretty sure IC2 requires copper and tin dusts combined which requires a Macerator which requires redstone dust.

Which machines have a faster base processing time? Can IC2 machines auto-output like TE3 machines can, or do they require extra steps in order to be automated? How much time does it take to reach the point where you can place ore in one chest, walk away, and pick up ingots in another chest?

How many more, or less, individual crafting recipes does one mod take versus the other? Hand-crafting time is extremely significant. Assume that a person has no idea what the recipes are, and they have to look up each one in NEI.

Material cost can be a measure of the time required, but it is not by any means the only measure. In fact, resource acquisition will very likely be similar for both mods, but that's why SCIENCE! should be done to figure it out. This analysis method is called "opportunity cost". That is why the process must be taken from beginning to end for a proper analysis.

 

[Protocurity]

Dream bigger my friend

I'm waiting on something that can produce 10,000 RF/t at the cost of my firstborn child.

Wait no more! Rotarycraft adds a dynamo that converts watts into RF. If you have a gas turbine with jet fuel, the Rotational Dynamo can put out up to 11K RF a tick.

Yes, that is more than any current conduit or cell can handle.

 

[Lathanael]

Which machines have a faster base processing time? Can IC2 machines auto-output like TE3 machines can, or do they require extra steps in order to be automated? How much time does it take to reach the point where you can place ore in one chest, walk away, and pick up ingots in another chest?

In fact there is a machine upgrade (not very expensive actually) called the Ejector Upgrade which many seem to forget when they say TE can be configured to eject into other machines and IC2 can not. Now ofc you can argue that it requires yet even more resources but tbh i'D prefer an upgrade system for TE as well. Because now they feel like a mix of magic&tech blocks achieving a whole lot in less space than they should.

 

[zilvarwolf]

In fact there is a machine upgrade (not very expensive actually) called the Ejector Upgrade which many seem to forget when they say TE can be configured to eject into other machines and IC2 can not. Now ofc you can argue that it requires yet even more resources but tbh i'D prefer an upgrade system for TE as well. Because now they feel like a mix of magic&tech blocks achieving a whole lot in less space than they should.

I honestly did not know about the ejector upgrade. interesting. always been there or is it part of exp? (I'd argue that 2 pistons and a hopper is far from 'not very expensive' also, but that's a subjective measure)

 

[Zenthon_127]

I honestly did not know about the ejector upgrade. interesting. always been there or is it part of exp? (I'd argue that 2 pistons and a hopper is far from 'not very expensive' also, but that's a subjective measure)

It's been there since 1.5 IIRC.

 

[rymmie1981]

In fact there is a machine upgrade (not very expensive actually) called the Ejector Upgrade which many seem to forget when they say TE can be configured to eject into other machines and IC2 can not. Now ofc you can argue that it requires yet even more resources but tbh i'D prefer an upgrade system for TE as well. Because now they feel like a mix of magic&tech blocks achieving a whole lot in less space than they should.

I know about that. What resources does it take to create? Those are extra resources that need to be taken into account. How many components must be crafted before the Ejector Upgrade can be crafted itself? What is the time cost of those recipes?

Once again, clean start to the first automated ingot? Which mod wins? I honestly don't know, but I have a pretty strong idea.

 

[Lathanael]

I know about that. What resources does it take to create? Those are extra resources that need to be taken into account. How many components must be crafted before the Ejector Upgrade can be crafted itself? What is the time cost of those recipes?

Once again, clean start to the first automated ingot? Which mod wins? I honestly don't know, but I have a pretty strong idea.

Hmm have a look at the recipe:

• 5 Iron from the Hopper + 2 From the Pistons + 1 From Plating = 8 (just a little bit too mush imo but still ok)
  
• 6 Wood (meh)
• 8 Cobble (meh as well)
• 8 Rubber
• 4 copper
• 2 Redstone from pistons + 2 from the Circuit = 4

If i add that the costs Jaded has posted in comparison to TE3 i'd say its pretty even.

Although i agree that it might not be as easy as TE it is still an option which gets ignored more often than not in this kind of threads.

@zilvarwolf yes "early game" is a very subjective thing.

 

[immibis]

immibis being a mod dev has nothing to do with flow of this thread. he is just another Joe with a weird tag to his name. nothing to be concerned with

Replying to the post you quoted, which seems to have been deleted: if I agree with someone, there's not really anything to say, unless I want to repeat what they said, so I won't post anything. I may or may not click on "like". If I disagree, then I have something to post.

It may benefit you over the long run from having to constantly craft hammers and wire cutters which are used to make plates and wires. It's a solution to a problem that was created by the devs in the first place.

That's not really a useful argument, because almost everything in Minecraftevery game is a solution to a problem that was created by the devs.

Machines needing energy is a problem. Dynamos and energy conduits solve it.
Dying all the time is a problem. Armour solves it. Quantum armour solves it even more.
Not being able to attack over a wall in Age of Empires is a problem. Archers solve it (or other ranged units).
Dustforce (a game which actually is based on difficulty) being impossible to lose is a problem. Spikes solve it. Same for VVVVVV.

BC pipes, as they stand, are not intuitive enough. The fact that I can put a chest next to a TE machine with a hopper on top and have automation early on make it better.

Hoppers work fine on IC2 machines. They even work on any side, without any configuration.

It would be nice if TE was a little more PVP friendly, giving players the ability to highjack others machines. That said, its already delivered more in terms of block protection then any of the other big 3.

Mods should not have block protection any more than vanilla should. Unless it's a mod specifically for block protection, of course. Or unless you pay extra for it, like IC2's personal chest (which is the only example I know of where you pay extra for block protection).

Time is literally the only precious resource. To point directly to YX33A's post, I completely agree that time is so precious as to be priceless. That is why it is the only resource by which cost can accurately be measured. Rare or not, ingame resources are infinite. Our time as players is not. The time spent gathering those resources is significant, but their relative scarcity is not by any means the only measure of time. How much time will be spent gathering the requisite rubber trees for IC2? Both mods require redstone in their crafting recipes. Redstone requires an iron pick or better, although the bronze pick from IC2 can also be used.

What is required to craft that bronze pickaxe? Is that time less than, or the same, as the time to simply make the iron pickaxe? TE3 has the additional requirement of silver. It is likely, although not guaranteed, that you will find silver on the way to getting the redstone. The extra time may or may not be significant which is why it must be measured. I'm also pretty sure IC2 requires copper and tin dusts combined which requires a Macerator which requires redstone dust.

Which machines have a faster base processing time? Can IC2 machines auto-output like TE3 machines can, or do they require extra steps in order to be automated? How much time does it take to reach the point where you can place ore in one chest, walk away, and pick up ingots in another chest?

How many more, or less, individual crafting recipes does one mod take versus the other? Hand-crafting time is extremely significant. Assume that a person has no idea what the recipes are, and they have to look up each one in NEI.

Material cost can be a measure of the time required, but it is not by any means the only measure. In fact, resource acquisition will very likely be similar for both mods, but that's why SCIENCE! should be done to figure it out. This analysis method is called "opportunity cost". That is why the process must be taken from beginning to end for a proper analysis.

 

[GreenZombie]

If for no other reason at all :-
TE's copper ore, tin ore, silver and lead ores are distinctive and look good.
The ingots & dusts both look metallic and gorgeous, unlike the other mods dusts where the icons are bland and flat.

I used TE2 because it fixed buildcraft (especially the energy loss mechanics of that mod), provided an easy to build ore doubling system, and had a fantastic lighting block.
TE3 Im keeping for the worldgen, but this time round i'm doing my processing with rotary craft to try something new.

 

[SlightlyVisible]

If for no other reason at all :-
TE's copper ore, tin ore, silver and lead ores are distinctive and look good.
The ingots & dusts both look metallic and gorgeous, unlike the other mods dusts where the icons are bland and flat.

I used TE2 because it fixed buildcraft (especially the energy loss mechanics of that mod), provided an easy to build ore doubling system, and had a fantastic lighting block.
TE3 Im keeping for the worldgen, but this time round i'm doing my processing with rotary craft to try something new.

In terms of ore icon design I agree with all but silver and tin. In deep cave lighting they look nearly identical. I really like the lead though.

 

[zilvarwolf]

Hoppers work fine on IC2 machines. They even work on any side, without any configuration.

Good to know, if I ever give IC2 another chance, that it's kept up with basic mechanics. A hopper on the bottom will extract finished product then? Because BC Pipes, IIRC, would not work from the bottom. Had to be on the right side.

 

[King Lemming]

Mods should not have block protection any more than vanilla should. Unless it's a mod specifically for block protection, of course. Or unless you pay extra for it, like IC2's personal chest (which is the only example I know of where you pay extra for block protection).

Make a Strongbox. They're more expensive and less storage across the board as compared to the IronChest-style equivalents.

 

[snooder]

Mods should not have block protection any more than vanilla should. Unless it's a mod specifically for block protection, of course. Or unless you pay extra for it, like IC2's personal chest (which is the only example I know of where you pay extra for block protection).

Any mod that has storage should at least consider integrating block protection. Right now, we have to rely on server-side plugins for protection if we want it, and because block protection isn't built in, we end often having the plugins fail to work as advertised because of some unforeseen interaction with the mods. What would be really, truly awesome is if someone could standardize block security in Forge, so that we can, for example, have an IC2 personal safe respond to and output items into a TE itemduct placed by the same player, but not into a hopper that a griefer sneaks under it.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Any mod that has storage should at least consider integrating block protection. Right now, we have to rely on server-side plugins for protection if we want it, and because block protection isn't built in, we end often having the plugins fail to work as advertised because of some unforeseen interaction with the mods. What would be really, truly awesome is if someone could standardize block security in Forge, so that we can, for example, have an IC2 personal safe respond to and output items into a TE itemduct placed by the same player, but not into a hopper that a griefer sneaks under it.

I cannot agree strongly enough with this post. Seriously, griefing is a BAD thing. Anything that cuts down on griefing is a GOOD thing. Strongboxes are great because of this. Knowing that no one can hijack your machines while you are offline is great. Trolls gonna troll, and griefers gonna grief, but anything that can be implemented to reduce the impact a bad player can have is only a positive.

 

[SynfulChaot]

Any mod that has storage should at least consider integrating block protection. Right now, we have to rely on server-side plugins for protection if we want it, and because block protection isn't built in, we end often having the plugins fail to work as advertised because of some unforeseen interaction with the mods. What would be really, truly awesome is if someone could standardize block security in Forge, so that we can, for example, have an IC2 personal safe respond to and output items into a TE itemduct placed by the same player, but not into a hopper that a griefer sneaks under it.

That depth of block protection would be nigh-impossible unless you had protected land-claims. It's too easy to add inventories to an existant system in such a way that you could grief.

I do, though, think that global block-level protections are a good idea, but just something as simple as global access, friends-only, or private. That would keep the worst of the abuses down. Anything more than that risks adding far more 'weight' than necessary to not even catch all the abuses. And if there is one thing I learned on a large public server, it's that griefers will find any and every way that is possible to ruin your work.