What's the point of RotaryCraft?

[Reika]

Yeah I figured as much, lol. It doesn't help when some toolbox starts saying they avoid the vanilla RoC engines. They should be keeping their mouth shut not spouting "Ethanol engines are useless" if they intend on spamming magneostatics.
If you do nerf those RC steam engines further, do it creatively not just by decreasing it's wattage or increasing cost. Reduce it's speed but increase the torque to a ratio that takes thinking to overcome (if that's realistic).

I will do that.

Like what it would take to figure out how to make a hydro-gen setup work an extractor, not impossible but takes some problem solving to figure out how to turn that torque in to speed but retaining enough torque for all it's stage requirements.
Because people don't use magneostatics becasue they produce a lot of energy or are efficient, they do it becasue they are adjustable

This is an easy fix. I will make them lock at the max for their tier. That will mean increased RF costs (and thus wasted power if you are not gearing it correctly).

 

[belgabor]

This is an easy fix. I will make them lock at the max for their tier. That will mean increased RF costs (and thus wasted power if you are not gearing it correctly).

I feel that with all the setup I need to do for the tier upgrades I've shown enough understanding of the mod and invested enough resources and know-how into infrastructure to earn the flexibility the engines provide. For me they have reached perfect balance. If you absolutely must nerf them further, please at least allow tier adjustment (so I can run a tier 5 at tier 4 for example) or tier upgrade removal.

 

[Reika]

I feel that with all the setup I need to do for the tier upgrades I've shown enough understanding of the mod and invested enough resources and know-how into infrastructure to earn the flexibility the engines provide. For me they have reached perfect balance. If you absolutely must nerf them further, please at least allow tier adjustment (so I can run a tier 5 at tier 4 for example) or tier upgrade removal.

The problem is it seems a lot of people only build that setup to get the upgrades, and then remove it immediately after, thus still negating the RC power system.

 

[Azzanine]

This is an easy fix. I will make them lock at the max for their tier. That will mean increased RF costs (and thus wasted power if you are not gearing it correctly).

You don't even have to have the inefficiencies to balance it, you merely have to make it so magneostatics have a weird ratio of torque and speed so one type of engine can't run everything without some jiggerypokey with gearboxes.
Even if you locked them at a certain output the 1:1 torque speed ratio still makes them the far simpler choice. Also RF is exceptionally easy to produce en mass with the advent of Big reactors and traditional RF setups any inefficiency can just have more RF thrown at it (and making it too inefficient makes it unusable therefore pointless to have in the mod).
You only need to make it follow a less convenient ratio like the example I give ad infinitum of the mirotubine loads and loads of power but becasue it's all speed any machine with a torque requirement >16 become tricky to run without a lot of gearbox tinkering or clever CVT switching.

You can even allow it to be adjustable so long as it acts like a gearbox if you want 8192 speed you have to be at 32 NM of torque. A theme I have seen in your tech mods seems to be "Make them think" anything that negates this should probably be avoided (but don't make them think too hard, not everyone is an engineer lol).

 

[Reika]

You don't even have to have the inefficiencies to balance it, you merely have to make it so magneostatics have a weird ratio of torque and speed so one type of engine can't run everything without some jiggerypokey with gearboxes.
Even if you locked them at a certain output the 1:1 torque speed ratio still makes them the far simpler choice. Also RF is exceptionally easy to produce en mass with the advent of Big reactors and traditional RF setups any inefficiency can just have more RF thrown at it (and making it too inefficient makes it unusable therefore pointless to have in the mod).
You only need to make it follow a less convenient ratio like the example I give ad infinitum of the mirotubine loads and loads of power but becasue it's all speed any machine with a torque requirement >16 become tricky to run without a lot of gearbox tinkering or clever CVT switching.

That ratio would have to be extremely low torque or speed to serve that purpose, however, and even then, it will still suffice for running machines that need high torque or high speed by default.

 

[Polymorph]

You could also make it a multiblock engine with complicated parts required for the higher tiers, then anyone who would have used x amount of engines would need to also allocate x*y more times space for them.

 

[Reika]

You could also make it a multiblock engine with complicated parts required for the higher tiers, then anyone who would have used x amount of engines would need to also allocate x*y more times space for them.

I generally dislike multiblocks.

 

[belgabor]

The problem is it seems a lot of people only build that setup to get the upgrades, and then remove it immediately after, thus still negating the RC power system.

But then they've done it and one or the other will keep it. If people don't want to use a full RotaryCraft setup the only nerf that's going to help is remove them completely. There's only so much you can (and imo should) do to force people to play a certain way. Usually the most interesting builds come out of people playing mods in ways they aren't supposed to =)

 

[pizzawolf14]

I generally dislike multiblocks.

The irony... ReactorCraft?

 

[Pyure]

Ah....yet another mod to learn. Let's see...1 RF/t is about 5500W, that means 20RF are 5500J and 1 RF equals 275J. The battery can store 281TJ...oops, 10^12 RF or 20000 Resonant Energy Cells. Rather impressive. I guess the cost of more than 1000 diamonds is somewhat justified

I don't know of anything that holds as much juice as an Aurora battery.

I've never filled more than 10% of it either (I haven't really tried, but there you go)

I thought it cost more like 250 diamonds but, dang, yeah, its expensive.

 

[Reika]

The irony... ReactorCraft?

They are out of necessity, as one-block machines on that scale are just wrong.

 

[ljfa]

That ratio would have to be extremely low torque or speed to serve that purpose, however, and even then, it will still suffice for running machines that need high torque or high speed by default.

That sounds like you don't want them to power anything (without gearboxes)

I generally dislike multiblocks.

You're like the opposite of Way of Time

 

[Reika]

That sounds like you don't want them to power anything (without gearboxes)
You're like the opposite of Way of Time

The problem is that RC machine requirements vary from 32 to 262144, making any sort of "only in this range" restriction ineffective.

 

[Ieldra]

Yeah I figured as much, lol. It doesn't help when some toolbox starts saying they avoid the vanilla RoC engines. They should be keeping their mouth shut not spouting "Ethanol engines are useless" if they intend on spamming magneostatics.
If you do nerf those RC steam engines further, do it creatively not just by decreasing it's wattage or increasing cost. Reduce it's speed but increase the torque to a ratio that takes thinking to overcome (if that's realistic).
Like what it would take to figure out how to make a hydro-gen setup work an extractor, not impossible but takes some problem solving to figure out how to turn that torque in to speed but retaining enough torque for all it's stage requirements.
Because people don't use magneostatics becasue they produce a lot of energy or are efficient, they do it becasue they are adjustable. If they use a gas turbine they would need to figure out what the optimal gear ratio is and put the right gearbox in the right place. but magneostatics you just tell it the speed you want and have the right tier for the torque.
Most players are too used this machine need X energy unit to work, but your machines are variable like this machine requires X watts but you need to make sure some of those watts are least Y torque, speed> z make things faster.
Some people look at RoC engines like a microturbine and wonder why just whacking on one wont run everything becasue they look only at the wattage and think it should work.
Also transmitting/ splitting rotational energy can be mind bending for the average punter.

I disagree. The RoC power system is really easy to understand, and running engines and splitting energy is more easily figured out than even the simplest automation task (if you have a grasp of very, very basic math - perhaps I'm old-fashioned thinking anyone who hasn't is an idiot who basically doesn't deserve a life).

Also, yes, adjustability is a boon, but at least for me, the reasons why I prefer Magnetostatic Engines are threefold:

(1) Restrictions in space and arrangement. Take a TE energy cell, and you can take out the power on every side and put it in on every side. You don't need specialised gear to change the direction of the power flow, and you're generally free to arrange your machines in a way that suits you. With RoC power distribution and machine arrangements, it's almost as if you must make a room specialised to accomodate them, and it usually takes up a great deal more horizontal space than pretty much all alternatives. I don't know about others, but I like to build vertically, and I resent every single space I have to expand horizontally, even more so if it's only because you can't rotate gearboxes, clutches and some other blocks when there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to do so.
(BTW, this is why I'm wracking my brain coming up with a ReactorCraft design that takes up as little horizontal space as possible. Yet again, considering my preferences, that the reactor cores only emit their neutrons horizontally so that I can't put boilers on the top or the bottom is a very strong point in ReactorCraft's disfavor)

(2) Long-range power distribution. I am actually producing most of my power with RoC machines. Namely, with solar towers set in a Mystcraft age with eternal day. I could try sending the power through a portal, but that, too, is a rather restrictive arrangement compared to using a rotational dynamo to convert the power into RF, sending it through a tesseract and take it out at any place you like by plopping down the other tesseract.

(3) Switchability and power storage. If you're like me, you're buffering the power for any reasonably power-intensive task (or group of tasks in the case of farming) in a dedicated energy cell. Which means you can switch off any Magnetostatics running off one with a simple lever. A similar arrangement in RoC involves yet another piece of specialized equipment in form of either the Clutch, which I don't want to use since it keeps the engine running and wasting fuel, or the ECU, which you can't switch with a lever - no, you need yet another dedicated tool. As for power storage, you'd need ElectriCraft to do that which is yet another mod to learn.

I see the rationale for the most recent nerf and agree with it. if you can call it that, since the engine type hasn't lost power or usefulness, it's just less easy to come by. I would, however, very much resent a real nerf since I think mod synergy is a good thing and that RoC won't ever have something like the tesseract. Making something more difficult to achieve is sometimes desirable depending on what it is. Reducing adaptability, however, is never desirable.

 

[malicious_bloke]

The problem is it seems a lot of people only build that setup to get the upgrades, and then remove it immediately after, thus still negating the RC power system.

That's certainly true. I built a magnetizing unit for the upgrades to my magnetostatics, if i'm not building AC engines it has no other use I could see.

On the other hand, my jet fuel production I set up for the same reason might persuade me to set up a row of gas turbines as a stepping stone before I start building a reactor. Thinking about maybe 8 of them, that'll churn out 8192Nm at crazy speed, which I can run into a 16:1 speed gear then plug into an extractor and have everything go absurdly fast.

*ponders*

 

[ljfa]

I disagree. The RoC power system is really easy to understand, and running engines and splitting energy is more easily figured out than even the simplest automation task (if you have a grasp of very, very basic math - perhaps I'm old-fashioned thinking anyone who hasn't is an idiot who basically doesn't deserve a life).

You can't just run a shaft from your engine across all your machines, unlike RF conduits can you? Especially not when every machine has its unique torque and speed requirements. Energy conduits can just split the power in any ratio and give the machines exactly as much as they need. No thinking involved with that, other than adding your machines' power requirements together.

 

[Azzanine]

I see the rationale for the most recent nerf and agree with it. if you can call it that, since the engine type hasn't lost power or usefulness, it's just less easy to come by. I would, however, very much resent a real nerf since I think mod synergy is a good thing and that RoC won't ever have something like the tesseract. Making something more difficult to achieve is sometimes desirable depending on what it is. Reducing adaptability, however, is never desirable.

I agree mod synergy is important but what people do with the RoC cross mod engines is not synergetic its total circumvention of mechanics.
I mean you even admit you use magneostatic engines to circumvent transmitting energy the intended way. IMO 2 thirds of the RoC's gameplay is transmitting that rotational energy effectively. IMO Most of the nuance of RoC is messing with gears and shafts as the actual generation of power is the same as any other mod, engine get's its fuel, engine outputs and the machines they power are in a similar boat most of the machines are merely solutions that other mods also provide (I will admit there are a lot of appliances and toys that do things other mods don't). It's the nuance in managing the output of engines is what sets RoC apart from other mods.
Also I don't advocate gimping the output just making it a little less convenient. And I agree, there are some things that need a more vertical options like the clutch you mentioned (but there might be a logical reason why you can't have a vertical clutch I don't know). Reika could afford to do some work on adding more space saving solutions, he has a suggestion thread actually we should go there and suggest some things.

 

[Ieldra]

But then they've done it and one or the other will keep it. If people don't want to use a full RotaryCraft setup the only nerf that's going to help is remove them completely. There's only so much you can (and imo should) do to force people to play a certain way. Usually the most interesting builds come out of people playing mods in ways they aren't supposed to =)

Absolutely. As I said in my above post, power production isn't really the issue. While you need the ethanol and jet fuel for other stuff, you don't need ethanol- or jet-fuel powered engines for power production even in a RoC-only setup, except temporarily. Also, the Magnetostatics are torque-locked, so you still need gearboxes and some understanding of the system.

In any multi-mod setup, there are parts people will be more likely to use than others. If I had my base in the jungle and in the current game, didn't go for an "invisible industry, visible magic" style, I would have no problems with the ethanol, and if I didn't hate the Nether so much, I would have less aversion to making jet fuel. I'm fine with being motivated to use more of RoC, but reducing mod synergy and being forced to play against my preferences too much will eventually result in my ditching a mod altogether. Even one I otherwise like.

 

[malicious_bloke]

Absolutely. As I said in my above post, power production isn't really the issue. While you need the ethanol and jet fuel for other stuff, you don't need ethanol- or jet-fuel powered engines for power production even in a RoC-only setup, except temporarily. Also, the Magnetostatics are torque-locked, so you still need gearboxes and some understanding of the system.

In any multi-mod setup, there are parts people will be more likely to use than others. If I had my base in the jungle and in the current game, didn't go for an "invisible industry, visible magic" style, I would have no problems with the ethanol, and if I didn't hate the Nether so much, I would have less aversion to making jet fuel. I'm fine with being motivated to use more of RoC, but reducing mod synergy and being forced to play against my preferences too much will eventually result in my ditching a mod altogether. Even one I otherwise like.

The nether is a necessary evil. Part of my playthroughs is the steady reduction of reasons to go in there. Magical crops is my go-to thing here. Once I have a nice (and totally not OP) farm producing blaze rods, nether quartz, TiCo nether ores, magma cream and netherrack (and in my current playthrough, every other additive for jet fuel) I have no need to head through the portal.

Well, except when i'm using nether lava pumps for power (usually, i'm dull like that) and my bedrock breaker setup, which is in the roof of the nether and isolated from the horrors below

 

[Azzanine]

Absolutely. As I said in my above post, power production isn't really the issue. While you need the ethanol and jet fuel for other stuff, you don't need ethanol- or jet-fuel powered engines for power production even in a RoC-only setup, except temporarily. Also, the Magnetostatics are torque-locked, so you still need gearboxes and some understanding of the system.

In any multi-mod setup, there are parts people will be more likely to use than others. If I had my base in the jungle and in the current game, didn't go for an "invisible industry, visible magic" style, I would have no problems with the ethanol, and if I didn't hate the Nether so much, I would have less aversion to making jet fuel. I'm fine with being motivated to use more of RoC, but reducing mod synergy and being forced to play against my preferences too much will eventually result in my ditching a mod altogether. Even one I otherwise like.

In a multi-mod setup you could just solve your pathological fear of the nether with some mod. Magical crops is actually very good for this purpose, you only need to go to the nether maybe once or twice get 4 of each of the jet fuel components and you are golden.