The Thaumcraft 4.1 Experience

[Azanor]

What's the source of these future changes?

Who knows? People just seem to be on a bash TC kick atm.

I did mention on the mc forums that I am thinking of nerfing their speed, but I'm not going to remove it. In the same post I also say the reason I want to nerf it is because I'm planning on adding quicker ways to repair things (via a item you keep in your inventory or some other method), but that has some sort of upkeep cost. In short, sort of the way repair worked in TC3.

In fact, if I can work out a server friendly way of having repair work EXACTLY like it did in TC3 I would be happy. However having items with repair constantly check their environs for sources of vis would hurt server ticks.

As for the tube nerf - I didn't do it to nerf them. They were killing servers when used in large numbers. My choices were to keep the suction mechanic, but limit it to one aspect at a time, or change them into soulless "magic pipes of automation" like so many mods are adding these days. I chose the former - managing your tubes were a minigame of sorts in TC2 and I wanted the same thing here. I consider the nerf a bonus.

 

[Revemohl]

How are the tools (and Thaumium Armor too) made irrelevant? They're now outclassed by almost every other option, including vanilla diamond tools. Repair is frankly why they were viable at all due to them being based on bursts of durability use. Let's go down and look at each one individually:
-Pick: The doubling is only useful when no tech mods are present, and no tech mods means much less use for double ores. Scanning feature takes durability, which is currently countered by (surprise surprise) Repair. Was never really that good anyway IMO.
-Axe: Burnt durability like cheap firewood when used. Counter to burst durability loss? You guessed it: Repair.
-Sword: Out of all of these survived the nerf the best in that it's a full-fledged AoE sword, which is insanely good. Still worse than before though.
-Hoe: This thing was good before because it was convenient and basically never broke. May as well just use iron/invar hoes now, because remaking anything via infusion isn't exactly convenient.
-Shovel: See axe.
-Armor: Basically just Invar or Steel armor. If you don't have tech mods then go make diamond armor because diamonds don't have nearly as many uses in magic mods.

Actually, all of those (except for maybe the hoe and the armor) benefit far more from an Unbreaking III enchantment, unless you really love standing around without doing anything and having a useless slot in your hotbar. The armor only likes repair because you're always using it (and I object to what you said, if you have TT you can basically have a purple modular powersuit without a jetpack), and the hoe isn't too useful for many things so it doesn't care.
I'm not too happy with the possibility of Repair going away, but I'm not too bothered by it either.

 

[Azanor]

Actually, all of those (except for maybe the hoe and the armor) benefit far more from an Unbreaking III enchantment, unless you really love standing around without doing anything and having a useless slot in your hotbar.

I agree fully here. Repair was handy, but it only repaired stuff in your hotbar or that was being worn and it is already fairly slow (1 durability every 10 secs at repair I)

 

[kaovalin]

Who knows? People just seem to be on a bash TC kick atm.

I did mention on the mc forums that I am thinking of nerfing their speed, but I'm not going to remove it. In the same post I also say the reason I want to nerf it is because I'm planning on adding quicker ways to repair things (via a item you keep in your inventory or some other method), but that has some sort of upkeep cost. In short, sort of the way repair worked in TC3.

In fact, if I can work out a server friendly way of having repair work EXACTLY like it did in TC3 I would be happy. However having items with repair constantly check their environs for sources of vis would hurt server ticks.

As for the tube nerf - I didn't do it to nerf them. They were killing servers when used in large numbers. My choices were to keep the suction mechanic, but limit it to one aspect at a time, or change them into soulless "magic pipes of automation" like so many mods are adding these days. I chose the former - managing your tubes were a minigame of sorts in TC2 and I wanted the same thing here. I consider the nerf a bonus.

I wouldnt consider it bashing. They are expressing their love of TC thru their aggrivation of change. A mod author should feel so lucky to have a whole thread where people bash it.... wait I just said. Nevermind.

 

[SynfulChaot]

Who knows? People just seem to be on a bash TC kick atm.

Nah. Most of us here love it. TC is probably among my top favourite mods. It's one I always enjoy using. Just concern about hearing repair going away/changing, though if it's changing for the better then I eagerly await it's future improvement.

As for the tubes? I, personally, have no interest in constantly having to turn around to fiddle with innumerous dials every time I change what I'm 'distilling'. If I could set up a fully automated tube system, even if it was much more visibly complex, I would do it. I love the aesthetics of the tubes. Very 'steampunk'. But the downsides are, right now, far greater than the benefit of using them, which is near zero.

 

[Azanor]

I wouldnt consider it bashing. They are expressing their love of TC thru their aggrivation of change. A mod author should feel so lucky to have a whole thread where people bash it.... wait I just said. Nevermind.

I wasn't actually referring to what is being said in this thread. Lets just say I have been receiving some discouraging PM's on the mc forums and a few other places. Luckily I have developed a pretty tough skin over the years and for the most part 4.1 seems to have been well recieved.

Apart from the tube change.

 

[kaovalin]

I wasn't actually referring to what is being said in this thread. Lets just say I have been receiving some discouraging PM's on the mc forums. Luckily I have developed a pretty tough skin over the years and for the most part 4.1 seems to have been well recieved.

Apart from the tube change.

Yea I have to agree. If golem movement was a little better, I think people would be less annoyed at the prospect. Maybe if wisps could be captured and turned into little flying legless golem slaves people would forget about the tube stuff.

 

[Bagman817]

Huge fan of the new research mini-game! I upgraded an existing world, so I can't speak to starting out yet, but the old mechanic was getting old quickly. I don't mind the tube changes, myself. There are a variety of work arounds, a mana-bean farm and dedicated furnaces for one. To be fair, I'm more of a hedge mage than a full practitioner
For what it's worth, I could live without the repair mechanic, although I'd rather not. Just leave me Haste, or the kitten gets it!

 

[SinisterBro :3]

Greg has tainted Azanor, just saying. (this is a taint joke.)

Just don't

 

[hiroshi42]

Thanks for coming and clarifying stuff @Azanor It's nice to have info fresh from the source instead of trying to sift through the hyperbole thrown around. Now Back to the Code Mines with ye! Work faster or you'll get the back of me hand!

 

[Golrith]

Possible valve golems, they can twiddle your knobs all day....

Seriously though, there might be an opportunity (depending on code), for filter valves (being more expensive), which remove the manual side of things by somehow detecting whats coming down the tubes. Possibly linked to a "pressure" system where the aspects can only travel x blocks.


I personally like the change to the tubes, they made things very easy. TC features golems, sure their path finding and AI can be wonky, but after all, they are magic constructs made from common materials. They would naturally have about as much common sense as your average politician.

I also like the new research system, purely because even within just TC there's so much to research, the old system would get annoying quickly. Add in addons, and it's quite overwhelming. Would almost be like trying to play a large mod pack without NEI or any wikis.

People seem to love auto-repair on tools/armour (repair enchant, arcane reconstructor from AM2, alchemy chest magic from EE2, Mossy Tic Tools). Which totally defeats ongoing resource costs to maintain your equipment which is a part of the survival gameplay.
Any auto-repair type system should have a big initial investment cost, which pays for itself over a long term.


All in all, it's just a matter of balancing time vs reward. Tube change increases time, but the research change reduces time. Each update to TC is gradually getting that balance right but it will be a long and slow process, with many bumps along the road.

 

[Democretes]

My choices were to keep the suction mechanic, but limit it to one aspect at a time, or change them into soulless "magic pipes of automation" like so many mods are adding these days. I chose the former - managing your tubes were a minigame of sorts in TC2 and I wanted the same thing here. I consider the nerf a bonus.

If it were truly like the way pipes worked in TC2, then it would be perfectly fine, but it's not. In TC2, as you are fully aware, it was just vis and taint, it wasn't a mess, you had to strategize on how you would remove the taint and keep the vis. TC4 has 50 aspects in addition to any aspects addons add which can easily become 60 with just a few extra addons. Managing 60 aspects that don't mix well at all is infinitely more difficult to manage than simply having two different types.

Now of course, we have golems. Golems are cool, compact, and compatible, but are unreliable. One day your golems are working fantastically, the next day they're dancing in a circle, hell, they sometimes just fall through the world. I, as much as anyone else, doesn't want to have to fix their essentia sorting system every time their game loads just because the best option isn't reliable.

If you really are going to stick to this system, add a few automation pipes to help. Change valves so that they're not just player powered, but can be turned on and off by a redstone signal. Add a pipe that detects whether or not essentia is flowing through it and emits a redstone signal accordingly. I'm aware you're not a fan of automation, but there's a lot most of us that are and it would help greatly with trying to automate pipes.

 

[HeffronCM]

I think that TiC changed perceptions of what tools should have. Being able to take any super tool and slap on some moss for free infinite durability over time skews the expected balance. Before this, the only ways to repair tools required some sort of constant resource expenditure. Electric tools, you had to generate that power and visit base. Magic had the Repair enchant, which ate up the local vis causing potentially deleterious effects. Ars Magica had options for using your mana pool as tools, which meant waiting for regen or mana potions to use other magics. It also had the restorer, which cost essence to run. Even the EC2 repair chest cost the mod's resource (even if that resource was made effectively infinite by the mod.)

This repair backlash seems very similar to the backlash over removing magical duplication from magical mods. TC2 and Ars Magica 1 had methods of turning vis or essence into a any item. When those left, people complained about the impending nerfing into obsolescence. That didn't happen then. It's not going to happen now.

 

[Cocofang]

New Research is great. Makes it less tedious and requires more thinking (but not really much). And also helps with redundant research. All those metal transfusions have been annoying to research manually in the past.

New Tubes are great as well. At first I wanted them "fixed" as well, but now I agree with the change. It makes tube less boring and less connect a tube to every jar. For those that don't want to use the golem you can still do it manually. Which is enough for all those things for tubes don't suffice, like an Infusion room. Because an infusion room can be easily refilled by hadn (or by golem). Ever since Azanor changed that "untyped Essentia flowback bug" which caused alot of problems and made long range transport using tubes impossible, I really like the new tubes. Some improvements could still be made obviously (i.e. Buffers try to output even if their own suction is higher than that of the surrounding, so you could combine that featrue with directional pipes) or the TE3-esque Tube disconnection Azanor already mentioned.

Repair-Enchant: I never liked it in TC4. Actually one of my biggest concern with the Wand Foci is that they last forever (but you at least need to recharge the wand AND the system is just too cool to change it back to the old wands).
Usually those infininite tools mean you craft one of them and never do it again. You also have no upkeep. But I give you that Repair Tools aren't as big offenders as those mossy tools. They recharge slower, they don't go to ridic power levels and are more expensive than all the TiC stuff together. I agree with Goldrith, infinite tools should be something that comes super late. Galgadorian Drill or something

What i really like about TC4 is that it doesn't go completly over the top in terms of power. It feels alot like Railcraft in that it adds alot of really neat stuff but doesn't go for sheer efficiency and ease of use (Azanor where is the 10x ore Multiplication?!?). Talking Raiclraft, Covert has been hinting at an Essentia powered locomotive in a Dark tower video from 2 months ago. I wonder if he pulls that one off Would love it.

P.S. Valve Tubes are redstone controlable already. It's even in the Thaumonomicon.

P.S.S I really love the TC2 mechanic for two reasons. With just two types of liquid it worked really well and disposing of said liquid wasn't trivial. You destroyed a full tank ---> it went into the air. Now you Vid Jar it. Obviously not feasable with the current 50 aspects.

I think in general in terms of "consequences" Thaucmraft 2 rules above all the other iteration. All it lacked were "small consequences" and not only the slow buildup towards taint. I am really tempted to load up a TC 2 world now

 

[RedBoss]

This is why this forum is great, we just got information from the horse's mouth. I'm still not a fan of the pipe change and I really have no interest in a manual valve system. It seems too mechanical to me, plus there's already so many things that gate the crafting of items. Gathering points for research, completing research, gathering essentia then fighting instability in the infusion crafting... There's a price I'm willing to pay but fiddling with valves is not my cup of tea.

That said, I have considered Thaumcraft to be my favorite mod for a while now. What you get for your efforts has usually been worth the price of admission. Repair being a bit more costly is fine, but again there should be some benefits for the steps required to make your gear. Having another elaborate system just to keep a TC tool is knocking on the door of too expensive for the effort.

The majority here do love the content offered by thaumcraft. I do hope the frustration with the gates to entry are considered with any more changes.

 

[Succubism]

Think I should be clear because I think I caused some miscommunication.
I never meant to say Repair was "going" I meant it was getting nerfed. I should have been more clear about that in hindsight.

Sorry 'bout that.

 

[ThatOneSlowking]

I was under the impression that the 'nerf' to the tubes was so that they were not causing minecraft to stroke out when they were used en masse. An I wrong? Are there other 'nerfs' planned that I have not heard about?

As for the other changes, this seems to be a revitalization of Thuamcraft for me. @Succubism , the way you feel now, where the magic seems to have gone in you love of thaumcraft? That's where a lot of us were with the research mechanic in TC4.0. I mean TC3 was not fun but TC4 was unfun for some of us. Combine that with the changes to nodes(where are my shiny god-sized nodes?) and the trivialization of taint/flux and I felt a little unmoved. This change eliminates at least one of my major annoyances with TC4 so I can only see it as a good thing. Also: AUTOMATIC CRUCIBLES! Still happy about that.

Since you can use an infusion altar as a crucible couldnt you hook up a few hoppers as automated crucibles?

 

[MigukNamja]

Oh. Direwolf20 mentioned that you couldn't fill them manually, it was either pipes or golems. Hmm... I'm going to have to try this, that'll change a lot lol.

I fill them "manually" by having 1 length of pipe coming out of each alembic, and then placing the jar so it connects with (just) that alembic. It works best if you wait for your stack of items to fully cook up and get into the alembics. Otherwise, you have to swap jars between alembics.

 

[Lathanael]

...
If you really are going to stick to this system, add a few automation pipes to help. Change valves so that they're not just player powered, but can be turned on and off by a redstone signal. Add a pipe that detects whether or not essentia is flowing through it and emits a redstone signal accordingly. I'm aware you're not a fan of automation, but there's a lot most of us that are and it would help greatly with trying to automate pipes.

...
P.S. Valve Tubes are redstone controlable already. It's even in the Thaumonomicon.
...

This! Use redstone plus a clock and you can automate 90% of the essentia distillation process. Those last 10% don't bother me honestly as it is simply a matter of a 1 time job for a distillation batch. And if Azanor wanted to he could add some things to solve the last 10%.

I think that TiC changed perceptions of what tools should have. Being able to take any super tool and slap on some moss for free infinite durability over time skews the expected balance. Before this, the only ways to repair tools required some sort of constant resource expenditure. Electric tools, you had to generate that power and visit base. Magic had the Repair enchant, which ate up the local vis causing potentially deleterious effects. Ars Magica had options for using your mana pool as tools, which meant waiting for regen or mana potions to use other magics. It also had the restorer, which cost essence to run. Even the EC2 repair chest cost the mod's resource (even if that resource was made effectively infinite by the mod.)

This repair backlash seems very similar to the backlash over removing magical duplication from magical mods. TC2 and Ars Magica 1 had methods of turning vis or essence into a any item. When those left, people complained about the impending nerfing into obsolescence. That didn't happen then. It's not going to happen now.

Yep everyone seems to compare every new or old toy to something which in their opinion set the standard for the modding community. Thus free easy and quick repair from mossy tools is something wanted from other mods as well. It seems like very few consider mossy tools to be a stupid mindless approach to the "infinite" durability tools. It's one of the reasons i am personally not a big fan of TiC.

 

[MigukNamja]

I wasn't actually referring to what is being said in this thread. Lets just say I have been receiving some discouraging PM's on the mc forums and a few other places. Luckily I have developed a pretty tough skin over the years and for the most part 4.1 seems to have been well recieved.

Apart from the tube change.

Very sorry to hear this. The MC forums seem to have a fair number of people long on opinions, but short on respect and to Mojang's credit, moderating a forum that huge is not easy. I made a thread on that general topic here, largely because it pains me to see content creators and other volunteers face such negative and disrespectful feedback. But, I digress.

As for the tubes, I thought the TC4.0.5 versions were a bit too easy (i.e. not enough of a challenge) and I don't mind the nerf that much. But, I might be not like most. I view Thaumcraft as an experience and not simply a means to an end. The process of building my Thaumcraft setup and tinkering with stuff is at least half the fun.

And, thanks for coming here and explaining things. Most of us are huge fans of your work and appreciate you sharing your thoughts.