The moment of truth has arrived...

[Type1Ninja]

From the video that Hambeau posted, it sounds like MC IDs aren't going to cross over and instead it'll be linked to your XBOX tag.

I do not, have never, and plan to never own a fucking XBOX. I don't have an XBOX gamertag and I don't fucking want one.

NO. STOP IT.

...I think it's just a Microsoft account, which you need to log into your PC if you're using Windows 10. They just call it an XBOX gamertag because money. :/
I'm totally with you on not wanting an XBOX, though. PC Master Race!
(which is actually justified in that consoles have only two things over PC: speed, and defined, pre-set experiences, which some people like, I guess. Both of those things can be achieved on PC, it just takes more effort. Other than that, though, PC gaming is just better)

 

[lenscas]

...I think it's just a Microsoft account, which you need to log into your PC if you're using Windows 10. They just call it an XBOX gamertag because money. :/
I'm totally with you on not wanting an XBOX, though. PC Master Race!
(which is actually justified in that consoles have only two things over PC: speed, and defined, pre-set experiences, which some people like, I guess. Both of those things can be achieved on PC, it just takes more effort. Other than that, though, PC gaming is just better)

consoles? speed? since when?

 

[Type1Ninja]

consoles? speed? since when?

Well, that's been my experience. I've used a PS3, and playing games like Skyrim and Assassin's Creed I and II, I've never gotten any lag. But then, I haven't seriously used a console for a couple years (?) now, so I wouldn't know.
The defined + pre-set experience point still stands, though. It isn't a BAD thing; it's just that I like customization to no end better. I mean, we're on the FTB forums. "Customization" more or less defines the culture of this place.

 

[Hambeau]

...I think it's just a Microsoft account, which you need to log into your PC if you're using Windows 10. They just call it an XBOX gamertag because money. :/
I'm totally with you on not wanting an XBOX, though. PC Master Race!
(which is actually justified in that consoles have only two things over PC: speed, and defined, pre-set experiences, which some people like, I guess. Both of those things can be achieved on PC, it just takes more effort. Other than that, though, PC gaming is just better)

Actually, you don't need a Microsoft account. My Netbook, which was updated to Win10 instead of clean-loaded as an experiment, was set up with a "Local Account". Everything was working well but I prefer starting a new OS with no artifacts from prior installations so I just finished a clean load on it. The MS Account keeps all your desktop settings between PCs and keeps anything you want to relegate to the cloud available if you log in with that ID. I have an XBox account because I needed one for a closed beta for an online PC game I participated in several years ago.

 

[malicious_bloke]

Well, that's been my experience. I've used a PS3, and playing games like Skyrim and Assassin's Creed I and II, I've never gotten any lag. But then, I haven't seriously used a console for a couple years (?) now, so I wouldn't know.
The defined + pre-set experience point still stands, though. It isn't a BAD thing; it's just that I like customization to no end better. I mean, we're on the FTB forums. "Customization" more or less defines the culture of this place.

I've seen video of skyrim played on PS3.

Compared to skyrim played on my shiny gaming PC with a 3rd party HD texture mod makes the console version look like Morrowind.

Console untermensch should stay in their place and not try to infect those of us who are above such things.

 

[Strikingwolf]

I don't really think you can predict the future of "C++ MC" based on the XBox... I am by no means an XBox expert, or any other non-PC dedicated gaming system since the SEGA Genesis went off the market, but I don't recall having recently seen 3rd party software products for any of the consoles. It seems to me that it's easier to control the market when you control the hardware and who has access to the internals.

Definitely not, console and pc always end up very different.

On the other hand, PC software and hardware are about as open as you can get. Sure, you have to get C++ MC from the Windows APP store, just like you have to get MCPE from the various IOS/Android stores or even get Java MC from Mojang, but even MCPE has a small modding community already. The only platforms that don't, as far as I can tell, are the big consoles. Sure, you can buy skin packs and the like from the dedicated stores, but nowhere else that I am aware of.

Here's the problem. MS technically owns all mod content and resource packs...if they're willing to sell skins I don't doubt they'd be willing to sell mods, probably giving some amount to the mod author. Now, I would love this, it would probably be a better community if paid mods were a thing. The big problem is, MS being behind it, scares me to hell and back.

If nothing else I think perhaps some C++ guru will sit down and write something like MCP for the new version as a challenge... Back in the day magazines like Byte, Creative Computing and Dr. Dobbs held contests to write efficient code, things like "Machine code floating point basic math routines smaller than a page" (a page is 256 bytes on 8-bit CPUs) or Dr. Dobbs annual "Obfuscated C" contest where the goal was to produce the most unreadable code possible. Someone will pick up the gauntlet if needed.

The other thing is, compared to Java MC, this first version of C++ MC is fast. Here's a link if you haven't seen it yet. Warning, loud "bumper" music.

As you can see, some features of Java MC have already made it into C++ MC. Other things won't change, since some will prefer touch screen or contoller over a reliable keyboard/mouse combo

There are multiple problems with this

1. This would need to be platform-specific and compiler-specific (if multiple compilers are used), because we would only have access to the machine-code.
2. If someone wanted to pick up the gauntlet on this, why wouldn't they just make there own game for the modding community? It would be better for the community, and more productive. I don't think people would choose to mess with this, especially given the legal issues of decompilation and recompilation. If MS makes there own API they could effectively shut down this MCP 2.0, thereby forcing a huge rewrite to all those mods
3. Don't forget that the symbols are stripped, that makes decompilation all but impossible.
4. We all knew that the C++ MC was going to be fast, not new information. The problem is, I'd rather have the modding community we have now than a fast MC with no modding community.

 

[Strikingwolf]

Ok so after watching all the videos I have to say...
First that I subscribed. These guys are awesome.
Second, they really verbalize a few things that I couldn't articulate, a few others that I thought but didn't say, and quite a few things I didn't think of.


Really great link thanks.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

EC is awesome :3

 

[FyberOptic]

Don't forget that the symbols are stripped, that makes decompilation all but impossible.

It's not really impossible, it just makes it infinitely more difficult. I don't think MCPE originally had symbols available, though that was reflected in the simplicity of the mods. Java Minecraft has no "symbols" either technically if you consider the obfuscation, though the structure of the class files provides a significant benefit to remapping and deobfuscating.

You *might* be able to use MCPE as some kind of reference, at least maybe in regard to like function calls, or data tables, etc. But the best possible scenario would be by matching two versions as similar as possible. And while I know you can get an x86 version of MCPE (I used an x86-based Android build in a VM before to log into my Google Play account to get it), I don't know if there's an x64-based Android version, or how to get it. And x64 is what we would be targeting for the Win10 Edition.

As for the speed of Win10 Edition, Java Minecraft could be noticeably faster and play smoother if it had the performance optimizations of today with the leaner code of the older versions. In particular, dropping the internal server. Minecraft has never felt as smooth as it used to because of it. Even stuff like a block model format would offer an advantage due to caching block vertices, but the implementation in 1.8+ is absolutely massive and convoluted, and used JSON of all things. Mojang relies on way too much unnecessary third-party code for crap like that.

 

[Dasdre]

Microsoft may or may not earn its investment back, but guaranteed Microsoft won't give a rat's arse about the modded community or what's in LexManos' brain other than picking it so they can screw him over. If I had the money, I'd hire LexManos a lawyer. I'm afraid the raping of his intellectual property has already begun.

And, it's only a matter of time before Microsoft's lawyers eventually start issuing cease and desists to the MC modded community, starting with Lex, FTB, etc.,. Microsoft purchased the intellectual property of Mojang, with everything implied in the EULA that the modded community hated, such as "all user-created content belongs to Mojang."

What about doing like Bukkit did for a while? You have a minecraft version that you don't distribute (that you download from somewhere else), and then all the mods and updates are released as patches to this "mysterious version"?

 

[ThatOneSlowking]

Well, that's been my experience. I've used a PS3, and playing games like Skyrim and Assassin's Creed I and II, I've never gotten any lag. But then, I haven't seriously used a console for a couple years (?) now, so I wouldn't know.
The defined + pre-set experience point still stands, though. It isn't a BAD thing; it's just that I like customization to no end better. I mean, we're on the FTB forums. "Customization" more or less defines the culture of this place.

I actually got huge fps drops in skyrim on my 360 at times.

 

[Type1Ninja]

I actually got huge fps drops in skyrim on my 360 at times.

Ok, ok, I may be mistaken about the performance thing. Not the topic.

 

[Strikingwolf]

It's not really impossible, it just makes it infinitely more difficult. I don't think MCPE originally had symbols available, though that was reflected in the simplicity of the mods. Java Minecraft has no "symbols" either technically if you consider the obfuscation, though the structure of the class files provides a significant benefit to remapping and deobfuscating.

Of course it isn't impossible, we have turing-complete programming languages and brains It does mean that it will be much harder. But yes, MCPE had much simpler mods when the symbols were stripped. And I'm deobfuscating some 1.9 snapshots with Enigma now, and I can tell you it is fairly easy to do it based on the structure of the classes. Even without having a forge workspace open I'm able to identify many points of the code just by looks and the random plaintext string that links it together. However, doing that for machine code, turning it into C++ and then deobfuscating it...I don't like the sound of that

You *might* be able to use MCPE as some kind of reference, at least maybe in regard to like function calls, or data tables, etc. But the best possible scenario would be by matching two versions as similar as possible. And while I know you can get an x86 version of MCPE (I used an x86-based Android build in a VM before to log into my Google Play account to get it), I don't know if there's an x64-based Android version, or how to get it. And x64 is what we would be targeting for the Win10 Edition.

Probably, but I wouldn't rely on it.

As for the speed of Win10 Edition, Java Minecraft could be noticeably faster and play smoother if it had the performance optimizations of today with the leaner code of the older versions. In particular, dropping the internal server. Minecraft has never felt as smooth as it used to because of it. Even stuff like a block model format would offer an advantage due to caching block vertices, but the implementation in 1.8+ is absolutely massive and convoluted, and used JSON of all things. Mojang relies on way too much unnecessary third-party code for crap like that.

^
Java MC could be very fast. Although I wouldn't drop the internal server just because it makes modding much easier (only need one mod, instead of one for the client and one for the server). But yes, Java MC could be much faster.

 

[Dasdre]

Of course it isn't impossible, we have turing-complete programming languages and brains It does mean that it will be much harder. But yes, MCPE had much simpler mods when the symbols were stripped. And I'm deobfuscating some 1.9 snapshots with Enigma now, and I can tell you it is fairly easy to do it based on the structure of the classes. Even without having a forge workspace open I'm able to identify many points of the code just by looks and the random plaintext string that links it together. However, doing that for machine code, turning it into C++ and then deobfuscating it...I don't like the sound of that

Probably, but I wouldn't rely on it.

^
Java MC could be very fast. Although I wouldn't drop the internal server just because it makes modding much easier (only need one mod, instead of one for the client and one for the server). But yes, Java MC could be much faster.

What about minetest? It's basically a voxel game engine (like minecraft) with built in mod supprt (lua). It's open source (LGPL) so it can be modified freely. And it runs much better, especially on low-end hardware.

 

[lenscas]

haven't seen the api yet, but as the api is done though lua I doubt you can do all the things with it that forge allows you to do with minecraft.

 

[Strikingwolf]

What about minetest? It's basically a voxel game engine (like minecraft) with built in mod supprt (lua). It's open source (LGPL) so it can be modified freely. And it runs much better, especially on low-end hardware.

• I've already looked at it, and attempted modding it, suffice it to say I'm unimpressed
• Lua is a great programming and scripting lang, but if I want a high performance mod, lua ain't gonna cut it

haven't seen the api yet, but as the api is done though lua I doubt you can do all the things with it that forge allows you to do with minecraft.

^
This is entirely true, let me put it this way, the MC community is spoiled when it comes to how much power we have over the game. We could literally rewrite MC from the ground up theoretically (yeah patches are meant to be minimal, but theoretically you could). In many many other games you don't have this freedom, and especially not with a lua API. To have the amount of power we currently have you would need hooks in every single piece of the code, a way to rewrite the code (meta-programming), or a way to decompile, patch, then recompile.

 

[Dasdre]

We could literally rewrite MC from the ground up theoretically (yeah patches are meant to be minimal, but theoretically you could).

Wouldn't that be possible with minetest too, since it's open source?

To have the amount of power we currently have you would need hooks in every single piece of the code, a way to rewrite the code (meta-programming), or a way to decompile, patch, then recompile.
What about changing the mod api to include hooks in every single piece of code?

 

[lenscas]

Wouldn't that be possible with minetest too, since it's open source?

I believe that striking meant that you could make a mod that replaces everything from minecraft that is still loaded just like a normal mod.

 

[Strikingwolf]

I believe that striking meant that you could make a mod that replaces everything from minecraft that is still loaded just like a normal mod.

^

You'd have to fork minetest for that

 

[Strikingwolf]

Wouldn't that be possible with minetest too, since it's open source?

Also, to you're last commen, that is very impractical

 

[immibis]

The other thing is, compared to Java MC, this first version of C++ MC is fast.

Java MC is surprisingly fast without mods.