Spacetoad is back to modding

[Hoff]

Flip the situation around and ask, "Why is Thermal Expansion is locking out people from using BC/RC/Forestry power generation?"

From what I understand it is in desire of computational efficiency. Nonetheless you are right it is unfair of me not to ask both sides;

@King Lemming Why is it you don't allow MJ -> RF conversion via conduits?

And Covert are you saying your reasoning is that you simply want people to go through every part of the mod?


E: And moreso Covert why not do that on your end? Use the RF api to allow kinesis pipes to change to RF?

 

[King Lemming]

Flip the situation around and ask, "Why is Thermal Expansion is locking out people from using BC/RC/Forestry power generation?"

The nature of the BC API means that it is onerous to accept MJ, from a memory/CPU perspective, and yet trivial to send it. It would likewise be trivial to add an RF compatibility layer on top of something that already accepts MJ and it would cost 0 additional memory to do so.

And as far as the Steam Dynamo (which I noticed you edited that line out), TE had a steam engine from way way back. Yes, it now accepts Steam from external sources - part of the point of that was to actively work alongside RailCraft.

From what I understand it is in desire of computational efficiency. Nonetheless you are right it is unfair of me not to ask both sides;

@King Lemming Why is it you don't allow MJ -> RF conversion via conduits?

And Covert are you saying your reasoning is that you simply want people to go through every part of the mod?

As above. Sending and receiving of RF is trivial and computationally expedient. Receiving MJ means that all conduits would be massive tile entities, or I'd need a kludge like the wooden kinesis pipe (albeit this is quite a good kludge as far as they come) - a specialized tile entity used to interact with the external world.

 

[CovertJaguar]

E: And moreso Covert why not do that on your end? Use the RF api to allow kinesis pipes to change to RF?

Because Buildcraft doesn't and has never implemented ANY other mod's API, and I see no reason to start now.

 

[Hoff]

Because Buildcraft doesn't and has never implemented ANY other mod's API, and I see no reason to start now.

I guess that's a reason but... I dunno that's just archaic to say the least.

 

[Zenthon_127]

Flip the situation around and ask, "Why is Thermal Expansion is locking out people from using BC/RC/Forestry power generation?"

Because it also offer the ability to use all BC/RC/Forestry fuels in at least one of the dynamos, which are better lag-wise (albeit more expensive to create and run). Using this method you also gain all the benefits of RF conduits and energy.

 

[CovertJaguar]

I guess that's a reason but... I dunno that's just archaic to say the least.

Maybe, but it prevents cyclic dependencies at least, since pretty much every major mod out there has "after:BuildCraft" in the mod requirements.

 

[King Lemming]

Because it also offer the ability to use all BC/RC/Forestry fuels in at least one of the dynamos, which are better lag-wise (albeit more expensive to create and run). Using this method you also gain all the benefits of RF conduits and energy.

To be *really* fair here, any difference in lag is actually quite minor. Server-side, I know CJ redid BC engines to be much better and send far far fewer packets. TESRs aren't too bad either, in all honesty - I just know some people who run *very* low end machines and I try to help them out.

TE will likely have animated dynamos as an option in the future.

Maybe, but it prevents cyclic dependencies at least, since pretty much every major mod out there has "after:BuildCraft" in the mod requirements.

Thing is, the energy API isn't TE. It's CoFH. There's not a mod requirement - it's a pure API. Cyclic dependency is literally impossible in this situation.

 

[RedBoss]

snip

I was merely giving insight into a change in BC and that spacetoad's activity led to an exchange between devs that revealed an upcoming change to BC. I was in no way assuming anything or pointing fingers.

 

[Hoff]

Maybe, but it prevents cyclic dependencies at least, since pretty much every major mod out there has "after:BuildCraft" in the mod requirements.

Despite that sounding like an attempt at throwing "weight" around;


The idea of "major" mods in and of itself is archaic. Most "major" mods are ones that leave an open field for other authors to add in compatibility to expand upon; foundations, simply. The best foundations are those which have the most connectivity. If you want Buildcraft to remain a foundation mod then it comes down whether you want that foundation to be based on your original vision or what most people will use.

It's very akin to ModLoader vs Forge(Idealogically not details obviously); at least imo.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Because Buildcraft doesn't and has never implemented ANY other mod's API, and I see no reason to start now.

I understand your concern with Recursive Dependencies, however this could have probably been phrased better.

At the least, this is probably going to go down in Modded Minecraft history as the 'most often quoted out of context' post ever.

 

[SynfulChaot]

I'd personally love a built-in method to transfer MJ to RF, though the onus shouldn't necessarily be on Thermal Expansion. Especially as it's no longer simply a BC addon, but a mod unto itself.

I honestly think that BC should add a method to implement the transferrance as it would be cleaner and more efficient, I think.

 

[CovertJaguar]

I understand your concern with Recursive Dependencies, however this could have probably been phrased better.

At the least, this is probably going to go down in Modded Minecraft history as the 'most often quoted out of context' post ever.

And you've lost me....

I admit the policy might be outdated, API design has come a long way since it was originally implemented. Many of the most significant changes happening in just the last couple of months. But up until about six months ago when the Liquid API was pulled from BC into Forge, most mods really did have "after:BuildCraft" as a requirement. But that doesn't change the fact that Buildcraft is not tooled to support external code atm. And not much point rewriting build scripts with Gradle looming on the horizon.

That said, I'd still rather see a clean split. Maybe it would reduce the number of people using Buildcraft as a result, but at least it would be people who understand and can appreciate its design as a whole, instead of piecemeal.

 

[Greevir]

Oh, excuse me. I seem to have gotten lost. I thought I was in the "Spacetoad is back to modding" thread. It appears I found a moda > modb thread instead.

 

[Sarda]

Flip the situation around and ask, "Why is Thermal Expansion is locking out people from using BC/RC/Forestry power generation?"

Because right now, if I want to use a Combustion Engine to power a Thermal Expansion machine, I can't. But I can use a Dynamo to power an Assembly Laser just fine.

I think you see must see why I don't like this situation.

Couldn't you just run the Combustion Engine thru a Engineer's Toolbox's RF to MJ Power Converter to the TE Machine?

 

[SynfulChaot]

Couldn't you just run the Combustion Engine thru a Engineer's Toolbox Power Converter to the TE Machine?

You can also use Extra Utilities' Energy Transfer Node to do the same.

 

[RedBoss]

That said, I'd still rather see a clean split. Maybe it would reduce the number of people using Buildcraft as a result, but at least it would be people who understand and can appreciate its design as a whole, instead of piecemeal.

McDonalds doesn't care that I don't want fries with my order. They're happy they got my business when I bought the 20 piece nuggets. Why would you purposely alienate users of your mod because they don't order everything on the menu? Not everyone want to build power systems in modded Minecraft. I'd gladly pay the diamonds and energy to use a filler or quarry. It's more convenient FOR ME to use conduits from TE or Ender IO. Mod packs thrive on cross mod interactions. Why would you want to reduce the possibility of BC being used in that manner? I have never used one piece of track from Railcraft but I build with your aesthetic blocks on EVERYTHING I build. I mean everything. Would build a barrier to your blocks because I don't use your whole mod?

Trying to control game play is not wanted by players. Hell I built an MJ system in 1.4.7 because of GregTech domination and my desire to avoid it. Don't close us off man! Let me get my nuggets!

 

[CovertJaguar]

McDonalds doesn't care that I don't want fries with my order. They're happy they got my business when I bought the 20 piece nuggets. Why would you purposely alienate users of your mod because they don't order everything on the menu? Not everyone want to build power systems in modded Minecraft. I'd gladly pay the diamonds and energy to use a filler or quarry. It's more convenient FOR ME to use conduits from TE or Ender IO. Mod packs thrive on cross mod interactions. Why would you want to reduce the possibility of BC being used in that manner? I have never used one piece of track from Railcraft but I build with your aesthetic blocks on EVERYTHING I build. I mean everything. Would build a barrier to your blocks because I don't use your whole mod?

Trying to control game play is not wanted by players. Hell I built an MJ system in 1.4.7 because of GregTech domination and my desire to avoid it. Don't close us off man! Let me get my nuggets!

McDonalds customers don't angrily complain that McDonalds Fries are shit and McDonalds is going to go out of business because Burger King's fries are better, while they are ordering their beloved Nuggets. They just order the Nuggets and thank the cashier.

Besides, even if they did, the cashier is getting paid to listen.

 

[SynfulChaot]

McDonalds customers don't complain that McDonalds Fries are shit and McDonalds is going to go out of business because Burger King's fries are better, while they are ordering their Big Mac.

Most of us aren't doing that. My sole reason for using RF over MJ is that BC doesn't give my anything I need and I prefer lossless on-demand systems over lossy constant systems. I don't dislike BC. It just doesn't currently fit my needs. And forcing me to use all of it just to use one feature of any MJ-based mod is not really very conducive to goodwill in the current mod environment where most mods have great interplay. I currently, in my own pack, have Railcraft engines disabled solely as they don't interact with TE in any way. Not because I dislike them. Just because all that can use them in my pack is Railcraft machines and nothing else and I don't want my players to wonder why they seem to be useless when I know they aren't.

EDIT: That being said, I want to see some cool new stuff in BC that could coax me to using it again. Energy interplay would be a great first start. ^.^

 

[SpitefulFox]

McDonalds customers don't angrily complain that McDonalds Fries are shit and McDonalds is going to go out of business because Burger King's fries are better, while they are ordering their beloved Nuggets. They just order the Nuggets and thank the cashier.

So, it's not so much a problem of TE "locking out BC" as it is overzealous fans constantly demonizing you, is it? That's fair. You get way too much flak for what's basically just a difference in design.

 

[CovertJaguar]

Most of us aren't doing that. My sole reason for using RF over MJ is that BC doesn't give my anything I need and I prefer lossless on-demand systems over lossy constant systems. I don't dislike BC. It just doesn't fit my needs. And forcing me to use all of it just to use one feature of any MJ-based mod is not really very conducive to goodwill in the current mod environment where most mods have great interplay. I currently, in my own pack, have Railcraft engines disabled solely as they don't interact with TE in any way. Not because I dislike them. Just because all that can use them in my pack is Railcraft machines and nothing else and I don't want my players to wonder why they seem to be useless when I know they aren't.

But that's not because of any fault of mine, it because the "other" mod you are using decided to no longer support them.