Recent Events Discussion (RED) Thread

[SynfulChaot]

Lets say there is a block that is quite powerful and requires energy to function. There most likely exists people who then complain about the block being too powerful and easy to obtain/craft and doesn't draw near enough power for what it does. There are a couple of options here:
-The author gives them an option to not play with that block anymore. Go ahead and disable that feature.

There is, IIRC, the ability to disable every single feature of the mod, every single block, individually. In the config file itself. I believe Jaded did this for Agrarian Skies to disable transfer nodes.

-The author asks for input on alternative means of crafting said block and considers community feedback, makes the power use configurable, and allows for configurable nature of what the block actually does. We now have options for recipes, power drain, usage, and likely can still disable the block.

He got *plenty* of feedback on his new generators, much unasked for, yet he still implemented some of it. Just because he didn't implement what *you* wanted doesn't mean he didn't implement *anything*.

-The author posts rants on twitter/reddit about people not being happy with his or her mod.

When you add a feature, a feature that's able to be disabled if you don't like it, it shouldn't engender the hatred he received. I think that's a *perfectly* good reason to rant at about the unnecessary hostility.

When the mod that you make boils down to being a shiny, uber-powerful, mod made completely for convenience and making aspects of the game easier it most certainly will appeal to the kind of audience that posts dumb bug reports. This is even more apparent when you have one of the most popular mods out there. I don't want any aspect of a mod I play with to be "ridiculous".

Aren't *most* mods about convenience? Automation is convenience. Customizable and more powerful tools? Convenience. Almost every feature of XU is more powerfully done by other mods with the exception of cobblegen and water collection.

If you don't throw every single feature you can think of in one gigantic mod, stupid inter-feature problems are less likely to pop up.

But then those same problems come up by running multiple mods to get those same features. Most of the time even *more* problems arise as there isn't always shared code base between the mods providing said features.

 

[SatanicSanta]

There is, IIRC, the ability to disable every single feature of the mod, every single block, individually. In the config file itself. I believe Jaded did this for Agrarian Skies to disable transfer nodes.

I'd rather just find a new mod than disable 90% of another.

He got *plenty* of feedback on his new generators, much unasked for, yet he still implemented some of it. Just because he didn't implement what *you* wanted doesn't mean he didn't implement *anything*.

I feel like more mod authors should do what they want, rather than what others want. Mods should be made with their vision, not random reddit/forum/twitter users, at least to an extent.

When you add a feature, a feature that's able to be disabled if you don't like it, it shouldn't engender the hatred he received. I think that's a *perfectly* good reason to rant at about the unnecessary hostility.

Fair enough.

Aren't *most* mods about convenience? Automation is convenience. Customizable and more powerful tools? Convenience.

I've found myself playing with mods more focused on fun than convenience (Witchery, Flaxbeard's Steam Mod, Twilight Forest, Zombie Awareness, etc)

 

[SynfulChaot]

I'd rather just find a new mod than disable 90% of another.

Then XU probably isn't for you and never really has been. By that logic, I'm guessing that MFR is as equally disliked by you.

I feel like more mod authors should do what they want, rather than what others want. Mods should be made with their vision, not random reddit/forum/twitter users, at least to an extent.

For the most part, XU *is* made with Tema's vision of what he wants. I don't recall people asking for the generators. Or compressed cobble. Or the Deep Dark. Or the magnum torch. Or the filing cabinet. Or the flight rings. Or the (original) watering can. I could keep going ...

I've found myself playing with mods more focused on fun than convenience (Witchery, Flaxbeard's Steam Mod, Twilight Forest, Zombie Awareness, etc)

I like a mix of both. XU, TE, and Thaumcraft? They make a good core. Lots of good convenience features so I don't need 20 mods for the simple functionality. FSP, Twilight Forest, Erebus, Botania, Spice of Life, etc? They're for the fun. I think there's a place for both.

 

[Padfoote]

For the most part, XU *is* made with Tema's vision of what he wants. I don't recall people asking for the generators. Or compressed cobble. Or the Deep Dark. Or the magnum torch. Or the filing cabinet. Or the flight rings. Or the (original) watering can.

Santa's point is that Tema and several other devs need to stop adding / removing features based on bitching from the community and just go with what they feel is best. Obviously, some input is good, but to the point where a few vocal people can have a feature ripped out just because they don't like it isn't good for a mod.

The generators are a perfect example of this. A few vocal community members led to Tema pulling the generators, even though it's simple enough to disable them. Thankfully, he added them back shortly after, but the point still stands.

 

[SynfulChaot]

Santa's point is that Tema and several other devs need to stop adding / removing features based on bitching from the community and just go with what they feel is best. Obviously, some input is good, but to the point where a few vocal people can have a feature ripped out just because they don't like it isn't good for a mod.

The generators are a perfect example of this. A few vocal community members led to Tema pulling the generators, even though it's simple enough to disable them. Thankfully, he added them back shortly after, but the point still stands.

I can understand having features removed based solely on bitching being a very bad thing. To that I wholeheartedly agree. But not adding features just because the community wanted them? That seems like cutting the nose to spite the face. It's overkill. If the feature is decent and fits what the modmaker thinks fits, then there should be no harm to adding it. And why is considering feedback starting to be considered such a terrible thing? Are they all supposed to be automatons, working in a vacuum? That makes no sense.

Everyone has a bit of wanting to be accepted. He got some pretty brutal 'feedback', much of it from other *devs*. That can't have contributed to a good mood. Note he *did* bring them back with only minimal changes. And *he* is happy with them now. So what's the problem?

 

[the_j485]

Let me give you a small tip

[i]Bloop[/i]

Will make:

Bloop

 

[SynfulChaot]

Let me give you a small tip

[i]Bloop[/i]

Will make:

Bloop

I like my asterisks, *thankyouverymuch*.

 

[VapourDrive]

*snip* - last three posts.

I didn't mean to start a flame war, I apologise if I did...
I do understand that you can disable all the features, I take careful looks through the configs of every mod I play with and had a bunch of the features disabled when I played with it.
My three options were not necessarily things any one individual had or had not done, just some general observations from many devs, not meant to point fingers really (ok, the ranting one was to an extent )
I also never asked Tema to put anything in or take it out. I have only ever requested features/config options from authors I think would value my opinion. (not hating, just a reality).
I do completely understand the desire to vent anger at people. I just don't think it benefits anyone really. Words on the internet have a strong level of permanence.
I understand his mod follows his vision and respect that. I don't play with the mod or agree with the design of it and feel that it is in my right to respectfully provide my reasons.
I also ask that a difference between feature and option is made... config options are very easy to implement imho (Ive done a fair amount of work with the EnderIO configs).
I do find it humorous that you mentioned MFR, I have the exact same opinion on it as ExU.
I appreciate gameplay over convenience (I love AE2 significantly more than AE1 as an example.), I also don't believe that most mods are truly based off of convenience... can you elaborate on this? Automation at its most beautiful form is anything but truly convenient for me

 

[SynfulChaot]

I didn't mean to start a flame war, I apologise if I did...

Flame war? Nay! Simply a lively debate!

I do find it humorous that you mentioned MFR, I have the exact same opinion on it as ExU.

I'm not a fan of MFR either. Duplicates too many features from other mods I use and trivializes too many things. XU, on the other hand, doesn't really trivialize much outside of cobblestone creation, but what mod doesn't these days? That being said, I disable a handful of features myself. Things that don't match my modpack vision or add unwanted/'trivializing' features.

I appreciate gameplay over convenience (I love AE2 significantly more than AE1 as an example.), I also don't believe that most mods are truly based off of convenience... can you elaborate on this? Automation at its most beautiful form is anything but truly convenient for me

That's based off of my view of automation being convenience. Auto-miners such as the Quarry, Ender Quarry, Digital Miner, Arcane Bore, etc are all about automatically doing what you normally have to manually do yourself. That is convenience. Even AE2 is about convenience. Clean, automated storage, sorting, and crafting. Again. Convenience. But there is no harm in that.

I, too, see the beauty in a fully automated system. I love creating them. I make sure every modpack I play has the capability to create them. I especially love ones with transparent ductwork so you can see the parts moving around. There is something special about seeing it working. Seeing the parts flying around. Like watching the clockwork in a skeleton watch. Mesmerizing.

 

[Padfoote]

I can understand having features removed based solely on bitching being a very bad thing. To that I wholeheartedly agree. But not adding features just because the community wanted them? That seems like cutting the nose to spite the face. It's overkill. If the feature is decent and fits what the modmaker thinks fits, then there should be no harm to adding it. And why is considering feedback starting to be considered such a terrible thing? Are they all supposed to be automatons, working in a vacuum? That makes no sense.

Right, hence this little bold bit:

Santa's point is that Tema and several other devs need to stop adding / removing features based on bitching from the community and just go with what they feel is best. Obviously, some input is good, but to the point where a few vocal people can have a feature ripped out just because they don't like it isn't good for a mod.

I have no issues with features getting added just because the community wants them so long as they aren't ridiculous or out of place for a mod.

 

[SynfulChaot]

I have no issues with features getting added just because the community wants them so long as they aren't ridiculous or out of place for a mod.

Then you're no longer talking about XU and we're in agreement.

And what's considred ridiculous and out of place is up to the modmaker, not us. It's *their* mod, after all, no?

 

[VapourDrive]

@SynfulChaot - if you find that mfr trivializes things (which I agree with), you don't find the ExU generators trivial?
As for thoughts on convenience, I am coming to the conclusion that the word may be as relative in definition as "OP" Although I do agree with your points on AE2 and automatic mining.
For me, the effort to settup something automated should be such that it almost requires the benefit of having it completed to be worthwhile at all. If something is both easier to create infrastructure for and also superior (subject to interpretation) to most/many alternatives... I find it poorly designed, which is where I pull my definition of convenient from.

 

[Golrith]

I think what "gets" a lot of players, is that XU was a small mod with various useful blocks. It has now exploded in content, with more useful stuff, it's own tech type system, cosmetic stuff, and fun stuff. All still packaged under one mod. Some players only want the original utility, some want the tech, some the fun. All depending on tastes, mod pack theme, etc.
Personally I think the mod should be split into sub mods, since XU is still growing fast. My suggestion would be XU - Decorative, XU - Utility, XU - Ender Tech, XU - Crazy Stuff


As to MFR, in the past I used TE recipes, and doubled power usage (and 8x power usage on sludge boiler). Requires you to have more power gen and resources. Feels "right" to my sense of balance (that good old word!)

 

[RedBoss]

Just of note: MFR is an OLD mod. It predates the majority of mods that some claim have duplicate functionality. It was also designed to combat the grind of vanilla tasks. It was conceived in an era before massive mod packs and ridiculous interactions. It was also meant to be fun and simple.

End note.

 

[SynfulChaot]

@SynfulChaot - if you find that mfr trivializes things (which I agree with), you don't find the ExU generators trivial?

How are the ExU generators more trival than TE dynamos? They do the same thing, creating RF, just giving more options. Some actually require much more automation to implement. Like cake and potion generators. Now if you also say that TE dynamos are trivial, then I can understand where you're coming from, even if I don't agree with the thought.

As for thoughts on convenience, I am coming to the conclusion that the word may be as relative in definition as "OP" Although I do agree with your points on AE2 and automatic mining.

Yeah. As mutable as 'OP', it seems. ^.^

For me, the effort to settup something automated should be such that it almost requires the benefit of having it completed to be worthwhile at all. If something is both easier to create infrastructure for and also superior (subject to interpretation) to most/many alternatives... I find it poorly designed, which is where I pull my definition of convenient from.

I don't feel XU fits this description given here. Especially not on it being superior to anything aside from it's crazyfast cobble/water gen and potentially flight as well. Everything else? Done better/faster elsewhere.

 

[VapourDrive]

How are the ExU generators more trival than TE dynamos? They do the same thing, creating RF, just giving more options. Some actually require much more automation to implement. Like cake and potion generators. Now if you also say that TE dynamos are trivial, then I can understand where you're coming from, even if I don't agree with the thought.

The TE dynamos are pretty rudimentary, but this is by design, to make room for really cool methods of RF gen, not "pink energy" or half a million rf from a nether star (to be fair, the player harm mechanism is well done). I haven't played around with the generators all that much but it seems like there's really just 30 of the same things at this point.

Especially not on it being superior to anything aside from it's crazyfast cobble/water gen and potentially flight as well. Everything else? Done better/faster elsewhere.

For a while, not anymore I guess, it had the cheapest item sorting system around and could be upgraded to be very fast and handled complex sorting. It also doesn't really have as much infrastructure really... but something like the magnum torch, or the lasso, the jobs they do are pretty crazy for what they cost.

 

[SatanicSanta]

Then XU probably isn't for you and never really has been.

I liked it when it first came out.

By that logic, I'm guessing that MFR is as equally disliked by you.

I liked the easy rubber when using IC2, and I like DSUs. A few other machines are nice too, but for the most part, yeah I don't like MFR.

I like a mix of both. XU, TE, and Thaumcraft? They make a good core. Lots of good convenience features so I don't need 20 mods for the simple functionality. FSP, Twilight Forest, Erebus, Botania, Spice of Life, etc? They're for the fun. I think there's a place for both.

Ah yeah me too, but I usually like having more "fun" mods than "core" mods.

I can understand having features removed based solely on bitching being a very bad thing. To that I wholeheartedly agree. But not adding features just because the community wanted them? That seems like cutting the nose to spite the face. It's overkill. If the feature is decent and fits what the modmaker thinks fits, then there should be no harm to adding it. And why is considering feedback starting to be considered such a terrible thing? Are they all supposed to be automatons, working in a vacuum? That makes no sense.

Look at RotaryCraft. Reika does what he wants with his mod and rarely what others want, and it's absolutely amazing. Most users often have absolutely horrible ideas. Look at the FSP thread if you don't know what I mean. I saw a suggestion on that thread that coal should drop diamonds. if all devs listened to all ideas, mods would be absolute crap.

I think what "gets" a lot of players, is that XU was a small mod with various useful blocks. It has now exploded in content, with more useful stuff, it's own tech type system, cosmetic stuff, and fun stuff. All still packaged under one mod. Some players only want the original utility, some want the tech, some the fun. All depending on tastes, mod pack theme, etc.
Personally I think the mod should be split into sub mods, since XU is still growing fast. My suggestion would be XU - Decorative, XU - Utility, XU - Ender Tech, XU - Crazy Stuff

I agree. Or maybe even just do that in the configs like Railcraft, because having to download 8 mods when you really want the one is annoying (/me glares at Project Red)

Just of note: MFR is an OLD mod. It predates the majority of mods that some claim have duplicate functionality. It was also designed to combat the grind of vanilla tasks. It was conceived in an era before massive mod packs and ridiculous interactions. It was also meant to be fun and simple.

End note.

It was also a BC addon

How are the ExU generators more trival than TE dynamos? They do the same thing, creating RF, just giving more options. Some actually require much more automation to implement. Like cake and potion generators. Now if you also say that TE dynamos are trivial, then I can understand where you're coming from, even if I don't agree with the thought.

Not sure about trivial, but I don't like Dynamos simply because they aren't animated, but look like they should be.

 

[SynfulChaot]

The TE dynamos are pretty rudimentary, but this is by design, to make room for really cool methods of RF gen, not "pink energy" or half a million rf from a nether star (to be fair, the player harm mechanism is well done). I haven't played around with the generators all that much but it seems like there's really just 30 of the same things at this point.

The pink generators seem to just be a gift for Aurey. Something silly and ultimately not the most useful. As for the Nether Star gen? The problem there is getting the energy *out* of the thing as it's generation rate is crazy (81920 RF/t). And automating the collection of them, which isn't the easiest thing to do and generally takes *several* mods to create. Like I said, it's mostly just variety in RF production. I've seen bases that use like five different varieties of XU gens alongside some TE dynamos.

For a while, not anymore I guess, it had the cheapest item sorting system around and could be upgraded to be very fast and handled complex sorting. It also doesn't really have as much infrastructure really... but something like the magnum torch, or the lasso, the jobs they do are pretty crazy for what they cost.

It wasn't *that* cheap. It required ender pearls for the transfer nodes, which aren't always plentiful early-game. TE does cheaper and better sorting, if a bit slower. But should it cost a crazy-high amount for simple sorting and item movement?

I think the magnum torch is pretty decently priced for what it does. 5 diamonds is a pretty high cost, in addition to requiring brewing. And the lasso? It's just for moving animals more easily. And naming them, though that has an exp cost, IIRC. You can't really do anything crazy with them like MFR's safari nets, so how is the price high?

 

[SatanicSanta]

It wasn't *that* cheap. It required ender pearls for the transfer nodes, which aren't always plentiful early-game. TE does cheaper and better sorting, if a bit slower. But should it cost a crazy-high amount for simple sorting and item movement?

Aaaand that's why I like cart systems. It's just a bit of iron, redstone, and cobble (mostly iron), and I can get a full sorting system that looks absolutely awesome, and is always fun to set up. It's not efficient, so the price matches.

 

[SynfulChaot]

I liked the easy rubber when using IC2, and I like DSUs. A few other machines are nice too, but for the most part, yeah I don't like MFR.

I like mob essence as well, and the auto-enchanter and auto-disenchanter. But not enough to make up for the rest, which I consider unbalanced and duplicatory of features in the other mods I run.

Ah yeah me too, but I usually like having more "fun" mods than "core" mods.

Same here.

Look at RotaryCraft. Reika does what he wants with his mod and rarely what others want, and it's absolutely amazing. Most users often have absolutely horrible ideas. Look at the FSP thread if you don't know what I mean. I saw a suggestion on that thread that coal should drop diamonds. if all devs listened to all ideas, mods would be absolute crap.

Don't judge all users based on the dregs. Some great ideas can come from users as well. I'll point to XU's Dark Glass as a perfect example. Yeah, some want really stupid, unbalanced, 'OP' stuff. But anyone with half a brain can recognize and ignore that feedback.

And Reika may do what he wants, but his decisions have both brought people to his mods as well as driven some away. I used to run GeoStrata. Even had a suggestion implemented. But it's current direction removed it from my packs as there aren't the configs there to remove the new additions I have no interest in. There is no one right way is what I'm trying to say.

I agree. Or maybe even just do that in the configs like Railcraft, because having to download 8 mods when you really want the one is annoying (/me glares at Project Red)

Word. I hate multi-downloads. Gimme one with options. Options we *have* with XU, even if we need to disable the features on a one-by-one basis.

Not sure about trivial, but I don't like Dynamos simply because they aren't animated, but look like they should be.

Yeah. I want my animations too. But it's a downside I'll take for a 'cleaner', more efficient (and lighter on server load) energy system than MJ. I still cross my fingers for those animations I've seen in the past.[DOUBLEPOST=1407188039][/DOUBLEPOST]

Aaaand that's why I like cart systems. It's just a bit of iron, redstone, and cobble (mostly iron), and I can get a full sorting system that looks absolutely awesome, and is always fun to set up. It's not efficient, so the price matches.

I like the idea of them, but their price dwarfs every other sorting system I've ever seen. I like a challenge. I don't care for a GregTech-level 'challenge'. Everything in moderation.