Opinion: Why I think some mod authors should think twice about their new content

[AlanEsh]

I find it amusing that the OP thinks TE is bad because it duplicated IC2's functions, but dislikes MPS because it doesn't behave like a Quantum Suit. [DOUBLEPOST=1377875919][/DOUBLEPOST]

Sorry that those machines bugged you a bit, although even the very first iteration of TE had 8 machines. At the time, the Pulverizer didn't even double ore - that's what the Smelter was for. That didn't change until TE 2.0.

I'm not sure when exactly you picked the mod up, but when I started writing TE, a large part of the goal was to get people using MJ again. There wasn't any impetus to compete with IC2, ore doubling is just sort of a necessary thing unless you want to make your world gen ridiculous.

Your mod is pretty much my favorite mod, just like the liger is pretty much my favorite animal. <3 <3 <3

 

[SandGrainOne]

I generally avoid mods that I consider redundant and it's not just a competition between mods, but also with vanilla. There are many things i vanilla that I consider interesting, and that I don't want to be overshadowed by a mod. For example redstone.

What we players often forget is that picking mods is a form of game design. When you chose to install a mod you alter your game and gaming experience. As players we must take upon ourselves to look at the individual mods and what they do. What do they add? What do they (indirectly) take away? Mods give simple players a lot of power, don't take it lightly. Use it to form your own experience.

Ideally, mod authors create mods that they want to play. It's a golden rule both for modders and game developers alike. It's important both for motivation and quality. The players should provide feedback and ideas, but the modders should stay true to their own. The only real power the player have is the choice to play, or not to play.

 

[frederikam]

The initial post has been updated in order to provide you with as much information without reading through the entire thread. It's also much easier and less time consuming to update the entire initial thread rather than to respond to every single reply that I tried to do in my last reply. Don't expect anything from me before I wake up from that long needed sleep I deserve, it's getting late here. I hope I covered everyone's questions for now.

As for you King Lemming I think I started playing your mod very early when it was released, I don't remember any other machines than the two furnaces, the aqumelator or however it's spelled, the pulverizer, the freezer, the crucible, the samill and the igneous extruder. That's eight machines.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My opinion is that I would prefer features designed to optimize the computer resources required for gameplay, such as seen in Thermal Expansion. If you just get newer and shinier toys, you end up with horribly bloated code and a conglomerated mess like Windows... and no one really wants that to happen again.

 

[Democretes]

By contrast, ComputerCraft is not very innovative in my opinion. It's simply opening up a LUA shell within Java. Exceedingly boring. Okay, fine, you can crash your computer by setting up a Grey Ooze scenario with self replicating nanobots turtles. But that doesn't make it entertaining.

Could you point me in the direction of the other mod that adds blocks that can be coded to perform a set list of tasks in game and can respond to almost all machines and items in Minecraft? I certainly haven't heard or seen anything like it.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Could you point me in the direction of the other mod that adds blocks that can be coded to perform a set list of tasks in game and can respond to almost all machines and items in Minecraft? I certainly haven't heard or seen anything like it.

Again, it is exceedingly unimaginative. It's nothing more than a LUA shell built within a Java environment. It's mind-numbingly boring and straightforward in implementation. From a coding perspective, it isn't even particularly elegant.

I wouldn't call it innovative so much as simply granting the user access to additional command-line privileges. In other words: Enable_Cheat_Mode=true

 

[frederikam]

Again, it is exceedingly unimaginative. It's nothing more than a LUA shell built within a Java environment. It's mind-numbingly boring and straightforward in implementation. From a coding perspective, it isn't even particularly elegant.

I wouldn't call it innovative so much as simply granting the user access to additional command-line privileges. In other words: Enable_Cheat_Mode=true

Computercraft Lua is sandboxed, it's restricted in various ways for the sake of security. The potential of CC can be mindblowing if you use it right, take the integration in AE for example. You also can make systems that enable you control of everything from one block.

Can we keep this discussion on-topic?

 

[Jadedcat]

What I liked about both EU and MJ was the fact that they were used for different purposes. MJ was for foresty and buildcraft processing as well as several farms, while EU was more used for IC2 processing. It bothered me that you could do this kind of processing for both types of energy. As suggested lower on this page by Vauthil, and I agree with him, that it would be neat to see TE introduce a completely new type of energy, so we can preserve that kind of different functionality between MJ and EU, although that might seem like a lot of work. And to clarify I do like the rest of the content that this mod adds.

MJ was for forestry and buildcraft machines the fact that at that time there were no MJ machines that processed ore has nothing to do with what MJ was for. No where in the buildcraft license or API does it say "Thou shalt only use this for farming and building machines" TE was not the first mod to add ore processing machines that could be run on MJ. Unless I have my dates all wrong Railcraft added the rockcrusher before TE added the pulverizer. And Railcraft runs on MJ. In fact on could argue that at the time EU was strictly for IC2 and MJ was for all the mods that wanted an energy network without having to write a new one since IC2 was more difficult to hook into for the purpose of new mods. So that supposed separation of functionality was in your head not the mod developers.

• The item should be balanced in comparison to existing similar items added by other know mods, for example balanced around setup complexity (I'm thinking how factorization handles the balance of the tripling functionality), price and required infrastructure that's required to use the item (IE how much work a quantum suit or redstone cube takes to make). Different tiers, or maybe the item could be restricted to dungeon chests and Etc.
• It should be stable.
• It should be efficient in terms of computer power.
• It should be different from what other similar items added by other mods, IE how TE handles processed items or generated liquids. Why have two different mods have a block each doing exactly the same?
• A good exception to this is to have items improving that mod, for when it's played with no other mods or very few. IE have some kind of ore doubling method.

• No mod should be balanced in any way other then against what the developer had in mind. Balance options for other mods if any are what config options are for.
• Define stable. Most often mods are stable until they are combined with other mods.
• I agree it should be as efficient as possible, but I doubt mod authors are attempting purposely to eat all your CPU and RAM.
• They are different, you just see them as being in competition because they are in the same modpack/server instance.

So basically the op is saying that I should never make cheesecake again because someone else already made cheesecake and even if I would prefer my cheesecake be just a little different I shouldn't bother because someone else made a cheesecake first.

I am really glad most mod authors pay no attention to this type mentality. If I wanted to make a mod that had similar machines to IC2 and TE but ran off rabbits running in wheels there is nothing wrong with that. Most people would probably get tired of chasing rabbits but some people would like it.

Reading between the lines it sounds more like you aren't happy with the mods people are putting together on servers. The solution is to make your own modpack/server with the mods you like.

All mods are balanced against themselves and what the mod author wants. Very very few mods were created specifically for modpacks. ANd many mod authors give config options specifically for balancing mods against each other if you place them together.

I think whats causing this issue isn't the mods its that people want to shove every mod anyone likes into the same modpack which results in duplication of machine functions. Modpack creators shove all the mods into packs because if we don't we get badgered as to why xyz mod didn't make it in. You want to keep to a single energy net pick a modpack that only supplies 1 energy type.

I'd like to see people stop demanding mod authors write mods based on committee. In other words I am not saying avoid what you dislike , I am saying if you dislike it so much go code a mod yourself that does what you want.

 

[PierceSG]

I wanted to post my opinion on how I disagree with the OP but I see that the rest got it covered.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Computercraft Lua is sandboxed, it's restricted in various ways for the sake of security. The potential of CC can be mindblowing if you use it right, take the integration in AE for example. You also can make systems that enable you control of everything from one block.

Can we keep this discussion on-topic?

I'd love to keep it on topic, but the ad-hominem arguments really aren't helping.

You are either incapable of comprehending the point I am making, or I am merely incapable of accurately expressing myself to an individual of your worldview. Therefor,e I shall assume the latter, and attempt one more time.

ComputerCraft is nothing more than a LUA shell within the Java Runtime Environment which Minecraft is running in. This is about as unimaginative as you can possibly get. Literally, he is coding a shell for you to code in. Yo dawg, I heard... aw heck, nevermind, that joke got old years ago.

It is really not all that restricted. Hell, it can have external access to the internet! Considering it is running in a JRE, means it is at least theoretically possible that your entire computer can get compromised by running the wrong program. Mind you, it wouldn't be able to grant itself superuser access (not unless you were running Java with your superuser account, which I hope isn't the case...), but it could still cause all kinds of problems.

Security is not a word you wish to use when talking about Java programs, particularly not when you are basically opening up a shell terminal in LUA. If nothing else, you can simply run a rabbit and suck up all of the computer's resources and crash your computer. Depending on how you wrote it, anything from a simple geometric-progression infinite loop to something more complex, you would probably have to do a physical reset because the computer would no longer have the resources to register a three-finger salute. If you caught it in the middle of a virus scan, you could theoretically end up corrupting your entire antivirus program.

Furthermore, you also seem to be unaware that since you are basically running a shell within your game, that you can pretty much do whatever you like and get away with it, because that is what the mod is designed to do. That might be fun for you, but I've punched my card in programming, and I have no real desire to do so in my free time. You are attempting to applaud a shell terminal for acting like a shell terminal and actually executing the commands it is given. I'm not sure if even Zhapod Beeblebrox has enough hands to facepalm that hard.

This is not innovative. This is the opposite of innovative. Mind you, I have nothing but respect for the mod author, I would have to be impressed with the pair of stones necessary to create a LUA shell terminal from within Minecraft, from a purely coding and resource perspective. But I do not think that word means what you think it means.

tl;dr: the 'potential' is about right for effectively giving you access to more commands. What I am puzzled about is why you feel it is so innovative to build this into a block rather than simply include the commands directly into minecraft itself and save a ton of hassles and resources.

 

[frederikam]

MJ was for forestry and buildcraft machines the fact that at that time there were no MJ machines that processed ore has nothing to do with what MJ was for. No where in the buildcraft license or API does it say "Thou shalt only use this for farming and building machines" TE was not the first mod to add ore processing machines that could be run on MJ. Unless I have my dates all wrong Railcraft added the rockcrusher before TE added the pulverizer. And Railcraft runs on MJ. In fact on could argue that at the time EU was strictly for IC2 and MJ was for all the mods that wanted an energy network without having to write a new one since IC2 was more difficult to hook into for the purpose of new mods. So that supposed separation of functionality was in your head not the mod developers.

• No mod should be balanced in any way other then against what the developer had in mind. Balance options for other mods if any are what config options are for.
• Define stable. Most often mods are stable until they are combined with other mods.
• I agree it should be as efficient as possible, but I doubt mod authors are attempting purposely to eat all your CPU and RAM.
• They are different, you just see them as being in competition because they are in the same modpack/server instance.

So basically the op is saying that I should never make cheesecake again because someone else already made cheesecake and even if I would prefer my cheesecake be just a little different I shouldn't bother because someone else made a cheesecake first.

I am really glad most mod authors pay no attention to this type mentality. If I wanted to make a mod that had similar machines to IC2 and TE but ran off rabbits running in wheels there is nothing wrong with that. Most people would probably get tired of chasing rabbits but some people would like it.

Reading between the lines it sounds more like you aren't happy with the mods people are putting together on servers. The solution is to make your own modpack/server with the mods you like.

All mods are balanced against themselves and what the mod author wants. Very very few mods were created specifically for modpacks. ANd many mod authors give config options specifically for balancing mods against each other if you place them together.

I think whats causing this issue isn't the mods its that people want to shove every mod anyone likes into the same modpack which results in duplication of machine functions. Modpack creators shove all the mods into packs because if we don't we get badgered as to why xyz mod didn't make it in. You want to keep to a single energy net pick a modpack that only supplies 1 energy type.

I'd like to see people stop demanding mod authors write mods based on committee. In other words I am not saying avoid what you dislike , I am saying if you dislike it so much go code a mod yourself that does what you want.

I'd not be surprised if the MJ net was easier to implement than the EU net, and while the rockcrusher was an early option it was very weak in comparison to the macerator, as it takes a lot of energy to use and a lot of resources to build, and I like that, it feels balanced. And the thing I really liked about the two energy nets being so different is that the player would have to build two networks in order to get the processing functionality from IC2 as well as everything Forestry and Buildcraft related machinery.

You make a good point about how authors should make whatever they would enjoy playing with themselves, and that's mostly fine if they're not doing something malicious, but what I'd like to see is something, that would seem balanced. Obviously every mod author should be free to add whatever he/she would like to add, even with something as controversial as Gregtech or something as silly as flying pigs, but what matters to the user is actually the balance with other mods, as well as the balance with vanilla Minecraft. Azanor made a multiblock structure that will double your ores, but I doubt anyone told him to make it balanced, and limited around outputting two ingots. I also doubt that anyone told Azanor to have it required for the player to work on the research before that player is allowed to use this structure, this encourages the player to work on the research system.

And by stable I mean it's always good to have things do exactly what they're supposed to do, as opposed to crashing your game and such things.

And for you next point I think you misunderstood me. Feel free to make that cheesecake, despite the fact that someone else made a cheesecake before you, just keep it different. I also wouldn't mind if your cheesecake was there just so that people would have access to some kind of cheesecake without having to install that other mod that adds cheesecake.

And I'd agree, having some kind of machine that does something similar but runs on rabbits is fine, I like that as long as it's different and balanced.

And I'm not saying I'd prefer only one single energy network, I'd like to see more of that kind of thing. Everything that need a specific energy network encourage us to go make that required network. What I like to see is items that encourage you to build things and have goals, much like the quantum suit acts as bit like a carrot for setting up some kind of energy net based on EU. Much like vanilla encourage you to go mining for resources, so you can start crafting things like better tools or minecart tracks. In fact encouraging people in that way is easily one of the better reasons why Minecraft got so popular I'd say.

 

[frederikam]

snip

I still don't see how this is relevant for this thread anymore. CC is sandboxed, yes you can crash the server easily but you can't reach any files on the computer other than the text files stored on in the CC computer's relative file directory, and that all in text format. And what most people like is that you can interact with the peripherals and the redstone around your computer. And to correct you, "innovative", which I do not have in my initial post or thread title anymore, means making pretty much anything, whether or not it's an original idea or concept.

 

[Jadedcat]

Maybe its a breakdown in communication but to me it sounds like you want mod authors to make it balanced according to YOUR version of balance. Because from my point of view and many others the mods you have mentioned are all incredibly well balanced.

At this point I have to wonder why you think your vision of balance should outweigh the mod author's. Because balance is subjective from person to person and demanding that mod authors balance their mods based on one persons view point is a tad silly to me.

 

[Jadedcat]

I'll use the same analogy I usually use. Mods are like children. Mod Authors are the parents. We are the neighbors. Some parents raise polite children that play well with others, some raise bullies, some don't want their kids playing with other kids, some try to keep their kid away from the bullies. The only people who really have a right to tell a parent how to parent their kids are the government (Mojang) or other parents and even other parents should be careful of pushing their parenting view onto others. If you have no children then you have no experience parenting and have no standing to be telling people how they should raise their kids. As neighbors we can decide not to let the kids in our house but thats about it.

If you have such set opinions on how a mod should be made , maybe you should make one yourself.

 

[frederikam]

Maybe its a breakdown in communication but to me it sounds like you want mod authors to make it balanced according to YOUR version of balance. Because from my point of view and many others the mods you have mentioned are all incredibly well balanced.

At this point I have to wonder why you think your vision of balance should outweigh the mod author's. Because balance is subjective from person to person and demanding that mod authors balance their mods based on one persons view point is a tad silly to me.

Imagine one mod adding something that works really really neat and you really like what it's doing, and then there's this similar item added by another mod that works better in terms of how powerful it is, but you actually don't find it as satisfying as that less powerful item. Which one would you use, of the satisfying one or the powerful one? That's what to me feels unbalanced after my opinion, and as my opinion I wanted to get it out here. Some authors may agree with me. I'd say most mods are balanced, but one mod that I in particularly do not find balanced is Modular Power Suits, as it cast that shadow over the quantum suit.

I'll use the same analogy I usually use. Mods are like children. Mod Authors are the parents. We are the neighbors. Some parents raise polite children that play well with others, some raise bullies, some don't want their kids playing with other kids, some try to keep their kid away from the bullies. The only people who really have a right to tell a parent how to parent their kids are the government (Mojang) or other parents and even other parents should be careful of pushing their parenting view onto others. If you have no children then you have no experience parenting and have no standing to be telling people how they should raise their kids. As neighbors we can decide not to let the kids in our house but thats about it.

If you have such set opinions on how a mod should be made , maybe you should make one yourself.

Wow you really have an interesting point of view there, but I'd say that as the neighbor I can suggest how I would like them to treat their child, to those parents that will listen.

 

[Greevir]

Imagine one mod adding something that works really really neat and you really like what it's doing, and then there's this similar item added by another mod that works better in terms of how powerful it is, but you actually don't find it as satisfying as that less powerful item. Which one would you use, of the satisfying one or the powerful one? That's what to me feels unbalanced after my opinion, and as my opinion I wanted to get it out here. Some authors may agree with me. I'd say most mods are balanced, but one mod that I in particularly do not find balanced is Modular Power Suits, as it cast that shadow over the quantum suit.


Wow you really have an interesting point of view there, but I'd say that as the neighbor I can suggest how I would like them to treat their child, to those parents that will listen.

I use whichever one I want. Which is exactly what you should do. Instead of demanding that every mod balance itself around each other, simply don't use the ones you feel are unbalanced.

 

[frederikam]

I use whichever one I want. Which is exactly what you should do. Instead of demanding that every mod balance itself around each other, simply don't use the ones you feel are unbalanced.

I'm not demanding, I'm suggesting.

By the time you have read all above you might have asked yourself "Why doesn't he just avoid using that item?" and "Why does he even complain about this?". Well for the first question I'd say it kind of bothers me while I'm playing on online servers, especially when working in the same workspace as others, because I can't justify why they shouldn't use xxx item while they intend to use that item. It also bothers me that some authors may take these wrong steps of making their mod super powerful in comparison, in order to try convincing people that this is just better and more powerful.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I still don't see how this is relevant for this thread anymore. CC is sandboxed, yes you can crash the server easily but you can't reach any files on the computer other than the text files stored on in the CC computer's relative file directory, and that all in text format. And what most people like is that you can interact with the peripherals and the redstone around your computer. And to correct you, "innovative", which I do not have in my initial post or thread title anymore, means making pretty much anything, whether or not it's an original idea or concept.

Shifting your argument does not validate that argument, it merely makes you appear to be attempting to dodge the bullet. Unsuccessfully, I might add.

Your ignorance of basic programming concepts does not change the fact that it is one massive security hole. Just because it is sandboxed does not mean it is safe. Also, do not underestimate the power of a well-timed crash. An unscrupulous individual can frag your hard drive pretty well that way.

Furthermore, you misunderstand just how badly you can perma-crash a server and render the entire server inoperable permanently. Or did you forget what the Startup file can do? You would need to perform a world reset (or at least reset the chunk or chunks the turtle(s) or computer(s) running the program is/are in) in order to fix the problem. In many ways, it is a more serious griefing tool than TNT, if only because there are so many ways to protect a world against griefing such as blowing everything up or burning everything, and there really isn't any way to protect against a memory leak. Hell, setting up a 'Grey Ooze' network wouldn't take more than about three or four turtles, and would easily bring a server to its knees given a few stacks of redstone and a couple chests of smoothstone to get things started. Worse, once you write the code, you can simply pastebin it. Meaning you can then retrieve the entire code with a single line of LUA script and crash any server you want (assuming presence of ComputerCraft and html access) within minutes of joining.

Let me run this by you again in plain english: ANY USER can use this to crash a server badly enough that it will require a world rollback at a minimum. With nothing more than a few minutes of mining and a single line of code.

You don't seem to comprehend that the very facts you are touting are my very arguments against the mod. It does everything all at once, and does so with pathetic ease and ridiculously low resources and zero need for any LUA coding other than loading pastebins. It is a 'brute force' approach to 'winning' minecraft. It is actually easier than simply typing in "/gamemode 1" and manually giving yourself all the wins, because once you start running it, you can simply walk away from the computer and let your turtles do all the work for you.

However, unlike you, I feel no need to try and dictate to the mod author what he should or should not do. If he wants to make a LUA shell for Minecraft, that's his ball of wax. I won't touch it with a barge pole, but that's my personal preference. If you like it, that's your opinion, and you are entitled to it (probably the ONLY thing you are entitled to, in point of fact).

If you still fail to see how this is relevant to the discussion at hand... well, I give up. Fortunately, it is not my job to attempt to educate you, because there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

 

[casilleroatr]

I'm not demanding, I'm suggesting.

Normally, when you make a suggestion that is rejected, do you continue to make the same suggestion over and over again? Balance in my opinion is almost irrelevant especially if you are a player. You do get to choose to do what you want to do you aren't forced to do what you think is less satisfying. Instead of focusing on one, possibly poorly worded, part of Greevir's comment, you should focus on the good point he makes - use the mods you find fun and ignore the ones that for whatever reason you don't like.

By the way I am using Railcraft boilers to power my Mass Fab via Mekanism's universal cable, I hope you are ok with that.

Also, can we all please agree that what we do in the privacy of our own kitchens need not be scrutinized by the FTB community, even if it that includes making terribly unoriginal cheesecakes.

 

[NTaylor]

Furthermore, you misunderstand just how badly you can perma-crash a server and render the entire server inoperable permanently. Or did you forget what the Startup file can do? You would need to perform a world reset (or at least reset the chunk or chunks the turtle(s) or computer(s) running the program is/are in) in order to fix the problem. In many ways, it is a more serious griefing tool than TNT, if only because there are so many ways to protect a world against griefing such as blowing everything up or burning everything, and there really isn't any way to protect against a memory leak. Hell, setting up a 'Grey Ooze' network wouldn't take more than about three or four turtles, and would easily bring a server to its knees given a few stacks of redstone and a couple chests of smoothstone to get things started. Worse, once you write the code, you can simply pastebin it. Meaning you can then retrieve the entire code with a single line of LUA script and crash any server you want (assuming presence of ComputerCraft and html access) within minutes of joining.

Let me run this by you again in plain english: ANY USER can use this to crash a server badly enough that it will require a world rollback at a minimum. With nothing more than a few minutes of mining and a single line of code.

Slightly off topic here but surely you would not require a rollback or any chunk/world resets to sort out a CC code that is designed to crash the server if you had access to the server files you could surely delete the startup programs from the server files thus stopping the computer from repeatedly crashing the server every time you start it.