Non-renewable Items?

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jumpfight5

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A grafter? What's that? I'm feeling both the types of trees should be grouped, because they have the same mechanics.
And poppycocks, that was the first thread I ever read, and commented on :p
 
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Exedra

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A grafter GUARANTEES you get a sapling drop from forestry leaves, but only has a very low durability. Lower than a vile sword.
 
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Zjarek_S

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5 uses, after it you will have grafter with empty durability bar and it will not work as intended, i.e. it will break on next use, without giving you a sapling.
 
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jumpfight5

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Grr, I am not sure what to do with this! Technically they are both renewable and non-renewable, but I'm not sure what to put. I don't want to seperate Silverwood from the other types, but it's the same thing. What do you think Abdiel? (And anyone else who would like to assist in this decision)
 
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Zjarek_S

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No, grafter can be used only on trees grown from forestry saplings (including identified vanilla saplings) and crossbreed leaves. It would break thaumcraft balance if it could be used on silverwood trees.
 
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Abdiel

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jumpfight5 said:
Grr, I am not sure what to do with this! Technically they are both renewable and non-renewable, but I'm not sure what to put. I don't want to seperate Silverwood from the other types, but it's the same thing. What do you think Abdiel? (And anyone else who would like to assist in this decision)
Click to expand...

Statistically, there is a certain chance that a leaf block drops a sapling. (I don't want to look stuff up and do math right now, so I'll just talk in abstract terms.) Therefore for a given amount of leaves, there is again some average chance to get at least one sapling. If you average this over all possible tree shapes, you can calculate the expected number of saplings you get from one sapling that grows, the probability distribution over all possible counts of saplings, and the chance you'll get no saplings at all (so-called "extinction rate").

Without going into too much specifics, using these numbers and some calculus you can do an infinite sum that will give you a chance that a population of n saplings will ever die out. (The inverse of that is obviously the chance that the population will live forever, and provide you with infinite wood.) While calculating the exact chance for a given probability distribution and n is quite difficult, there are some things we can tell using statistics:

  • If the expected number of saplings you get from one tree is less than 1, the chance of the population eventually dying is always 1, regardless of n.
  • If the expected number of saplings from one tree is greater than 1, the chance of the population dying off will be less than 1. Moreover, the greater n is, the smaller this chance becomes. (A mathematician would say that the limit for this chance for n going to infinity is 0.) So if you want a chance, say, less than one in a million that your tree farm will run out, I could give you a number of saplings to start with to get that chance.

Silverwood trees fall under the first category. No matter how many you plant, there is a certainty that you will eventually lose all your saplings. All other trees (as far as I know, isn't there one tree in TF that doesn't drop saplings?) fall in the second category. And while there will always be a chance to lose all of your saplings, you can make this chance as small as you'd like (one to the number of atoms in the universe if you really want*) by simply starting with more saplings. I would therefore classify all other types of wood as renewable.



* or less than a chance of your computer being hit by a meteorite, destroying your saved game and the tree farm.
 
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jumpfight5

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Holie-molie.
Poppycocks did say there is a 1/300 chance for greatwood (unless I'm remembering incorrectly). Because I can't get a saved game world up, maybe one of you could do the test that Celestialphoenix suggested. 25 greatwood trees, all grown on a flatworld biome with plenty of space in between. Then silk touch sickle the trees, and we'll see how many leaves we'll get by dividing it by 25 (unless you use more trees, of course). By comparing this with Poppycocks 1/300 (of which he found in the code), we'll be able to determine if it's renewable, and by how much it is.

Aww man, why'd this font change? It's bolded....but it's not?!
 
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Abdiel

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I assume you mean silverwood. Greatwood trees drop plenty of saplings. (Sorry for the pedantry.)

Either way, just looking at random silverwood trees, they definitely have less than 300 leaves on average. Thus assuming a 1/300 drop rate, the chance of getting at least one sapling from a tree will be less than 1. disregard, my math is bad and I should feel bad.
 
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MilConDoin

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Even if each leaf would have a chance of 50% of dropping a sapling, your chance of getting at least one sapling would be lesser than 1. Granted, the chance for getting 0 saplings would very close to 0, but close to 0 is still more than 0.

If one tree would have 300 leaves with a chance 1/300 each of dropping a sapling, there would be a chance of 36.7% to receive 0 saplings. With 100 leaves the chance rises to 71.1%, with 50 leaves to 84.6%.
 
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Abdiel

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Of course you are right. I'm not quite sure why I wrote what I wrote, it must have been a momentary lapse in judgement. (Playing the game while posting on the forum surely doesn't help either.) The first post is still true, with one small omission that I edited out.
 
Celestialphoenix

Celestialphoenix

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Tartarus.. I mean at work. Same thing really.
Was that bold text really necessary jump?

Generally:

1) If you grow a massive amount of silverwood saplings- wear the goggles of revealing, the aura goes crazy- more sparkly s**t flying about than the twilight saga and harry potter combined!

2) Efficiency X axe of the stream is awesome.

3) planting 3 lots of 25 saplings returned 10, 15 and 17 saplings- without the leaves overlapping. This also violates the aura, and you get savaged by wisps.
harvesting naturally occuring silverwoods, or planting them further apart gives a slightly higher drop rate.​
-0-3 for a full size silverwood [35ish blocks], and 0-1 for a small one [10 blocks]. Small ones don't drop any half the time, and the trees grow small 4/5 of the time in the area I'm in. (So you'll run out after a few generations at best)​

4) That above area was plains biome- with about 100-150 aura level. I then moved to an area of about 590 aura (obsidian totems for the win!)- each tree grew to full height- givng 25-30+ blocks each. Though fewer saplings dropped- might be due to the higher flux levels (the plains had medium-low flux)

So there's a possibility that silverwood saplings might be renewable, if you grow them carefully in a high aura low flux environment.

-Edit- leaf counts with silk touch.

Whats the difference between silverwood leaves 1610:9 and 1610:1?

Silverwood logs/blocks : Leaves (1610:9) : Leaves (1610:1)
21:241:9
10:135:2
10:198:4
10:135:1
20:262:7
42:463:14
20:281:6
43:452:7

Fresh area/local node for each growth- with bigger trees needing higher aura levels. I think 500 is the minimum for the 40+ trees.
 
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Korenn

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Celestialphoenix said:
4) That above area was plains biome- with about 100-150 aura level. I then moved to an area of about 590 aura (obsidian totems for the win!)- each tree grew to full height- givng 25-30+ blocks each. Though fewer saplings dropped- might be due to the higher flux levels (the plains had medium-low flux)

Fresh area/local node for each growth- with bigger trees needing higher aura levels. I think 500 is the minimum for the 40+ trees.
Click to expand...

I think that's coincidence. I've gotten big trees with smaller nodes, and plenty of small trees on my 1000+ node.
 
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jumpfight5

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Bringing this thread back, because of an ultimate mod called Alkahestry, it gets you more Dragon Eggs, I've never played with it before, but with all the new mods, I think it'd be safe to say we can add (and remove) some items from this list.

EDIT: Didn't see some of these things on the thread before it "died". What do you think about Silverwood trees, everyone? Renewable, or not so much?
 
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