Metallurgy Discussion

[Tristam Izumi]

Yes, but what you might consider "easy", some other player might consider "challenging". You have to remember that not everyone who plays games is as "skilled" or as "talented" as you. Not everyone plays the games to the same standard you do. Perhaps they're not able to. Perhaps they don't want to.

So my point would be not to ask mod devs to make things challenging (again, what you consider challenging most likely doesn't mesh with everyone's definition, as they're gamers of different calibers). Ask mod devs for configs that allow you to modify things so you can tweak the difficulty to your taste. Forestry does this. GregTech does this. Most decent mods do this. It allows for a broader audience to appreciate a mod, and that's always a good thing.

 

[WatcherInTheShadows]

Yes, but what you might consider "easy", some other player might consider "challenging". You have to remember that not everyone who plays games is as "skilled" or as "talented" as you. Not everyone plays the games to the same standard you do. Perhaps they're not able to. Perhaps they don't want to.

So my point would be not to ask mod devs to make things challenging (again, what you consider challenging most likely doesn't mesh with everyone's definition, as they're gamers of different calibers). Ask mod devs for configs that allow you to modify things so you can tweak the difficulty to your taste. Forestry does this. GregTech does this. Most decent mods do this. It allows for a broader audience to appreciate a mod, and that's always a good thing.

No.
The real question is, what would I ever do without you here to clarify that?


There is a generally accepted middleground such words conjure.
When, well, you know.

 

[TomeWyrm]

<snip>
There is a generally accepted middleground such words conjure.
When, well, you know.

Not really. The concepts of balance, ease, and challenge are entirely subjective. The only semblance of "middle ground" is attained via aggregate. Which is why Tristam Izumi actually has it right. Asking a mod author to not make something "easy" or "not gift wrap" things, to "offer a challenge" are things that are obvious to you. But not intrinsic, objective, or universal. In other words, they are subjective.

Ask instead for SPECIFIC things, such as "please do not include another ore-doubling machine", or "could you expand upon your tier system to include vanilla ores? That way finding diamonds doesn't bypass nearly your entire tech tree."

It's easier on the mod author because you've given them a specific goal, it provides a more well-defined target for discussion and improvement, and it helps to prevent thread derailment as people argue about definitions. (I'm only poking at myself on that last point, I do that more often than I probably should)

======

Back on topic, I definitely like the idea of being a "core" mod with all the metals. That way you can disable the rainbow cave and horrifically obnoxious ore-processing-clogging 10 different types of copper. That might be something you want to bring up with the Forge folks, so you can leverage the Ore Dictionary or something to let you do that. Maybe using IMC to allow mods to tell you how much ore they usually spawn so you can weight your ores appropriately (Like factorization using stacks of lead at a time, or the way IndustrialCraft used to simply BURN through iron and coal).

I'm actually all for having YET ANOTHER ore processing system, because I've discovered a new philosophy about my mods in the wake of the first mod breakage/lapse I've ever experienced—having lapsed in playing modded (out of annoyance/disgust from difficult installs and compatibility nightmares) for a long time before rediscovering mods with FTB.

Duplication of core concepts is a good thing if you can enable/disable them. It gives me more options in-game, which is a good thing. Also, when ModA goes dark or ModB starts crashing worlds, the duplication of core functionality allows me to continue to do what I enjoy doing instead of suddenly refactoring my ENTIRE playstyle because suddenly my house doesn't teleport around hyperspace, or my self-repairing wall stops repairing letting the orges have free reign of my factory. (Again, random examples. I don't want you to duplicate everything, but core concepts like ore multiplication, alloying, etc? Please do!)

 

[Eyamaz]

I think it could be quite cool if metallurgy had a system similar to the Forestry bee\tree breeding. It IS a mod about combining metals to make new ones, after all.

Maybe each metal has traits - hardness, base damage, mining speed, mining level etc, and you could alloy 2 metals together. The first one you put in becomes the primary metal and determines the type (Unless you want to go down the 'mutation' route too, of course). The other traits could be determined using some 'breeding' system, possibly based on the complexity of the metals instead of the dominant\recessive style of Mendelian.

You'd still have all your ores so people who don't care\want to, can just fire them into a furnace or whatever and get their ingots. But people who want to put in the effort to make their metals better can alloy\combine\whatever to their hearts content. It also means you can have different metals without needing loads of new ores.

I toyed with this idea a year ago when I originally wanted to start modding. Having the base properties of the metals affect how machines run, power is generated, etc. It's a lot of work.

It also forces incompatibility with all other mods. It's an awesome system I'd love to see, but let's face it, right now is a time for intermod compatibility.

However, with the plugin capabilities that shadowclaimer wants in M4, it may well be something to look into doing. I think I still have my notes somewhere...

 

[Trunks9809]

Having the base properties of the metals affect how machines run, power is generated, etc. It's a lot of work.

I actually hadn't thought that far ahead - I was strictly limiting myself to making tools\weapons\armour etc. One of the most common complaint's I've heard since Metallurgy went back into RR is that there too much 'useless' stuff. The bees of forestry is something I've always seen people getting involved in, and metallurgy as a science is all about mixing metals, and instead of adding a whole slew of metals, you could just mix them in various proportions to make them better. Gives a purpose for all the metals, and also adds a nice little minigame for people to get distracted by

 

[Eyamaz]

I actually hadn't thought that far ahead - I was strictly limiting myself to making tools\weapons\armour etc. One of the most common complaint's I've heard since Metallurgy went back into RR is that there too much 'useless' stuff. The bees of forestry is something I've always seen people getting involved in, and metallurgy as a science is all about mixing metals, and instead of adding a whole slew of metals, you could just mix them in various proportions to make them better. Gives a purpose for all the metals, and also adds a nice little minigame for people to get distracted by

yeah, i actually went that far ahead and calculated out a lot of things. then i decided to get into java and have just, well, stalled in learning the language. i may pick up studies and start modding once a stable forge for 1.7 is out though. who knows. my life is a bit hectic to even think of adding another project into my list atm.

 

[Shirkit]

The only thing that has stopped me in the past from using Metallurgy was that the ingots/ores added by it although they are cool, they have no use for other mods. I'd love to see the other mods using the ores added by it. Or someone creating a mod that replaces the recipes from the other mods with ingots added by Metallurgy. If someone could start this up, I'd try my best to find balancing points to it.

 

[Siro]

Back on topic, I definitely like the idea of being a "core" mod with all the metals. That way you can disable the rainbow cave and horrifically obnoxious ore-processing-clogging 10 different types of copper. That might be something you want to bring up with the Forge folks, so you can leverage the Ore Dictionary or something to let you do that. Maybe using IMC to allow mods to tell you how much ore they usually spawn so you can weight your ores appropriately (Like factorization using stacks of lead at a time, or the way IndustrialCraft used to simply BURN through iron and coal).

It's very doable, as Gregtech already does it to a large extent. However, there are some problems with people registering things in ways not expected by Forge conventions. So it's still possible to end up with multiple types of a metal or a metal that will work in one machine but not the other even with the same name. Sometimes this is even intentional, as some mod authors don't want their things being made by other mods for whatever reason.

 

[Tylor]

Open source, centralised ore generation for other mods is good. But needs more work - documentation, more customisation options, etc.
Rest of the mod is redundant.

 

[Vicerious]

I'd never heard of Metallurgy before I came across this thread, but I had a thought after reading through it.

What about adding another processing step to the higher-tier metals before they can be turned into usable ingots? Something similar to turning uranium ore into refined uranium in a compressor, or iron into steel in a blast furnace. The low-tier metals could be required in the construction and/or operation of these processes.

For example, maybe the production of adamantite would be something like this:

1. Adamantite ore must be crushed into raw adamantite.
2. Raw adamantite then has to be "attuned" in an arcane machine that runs on experience/mob essence/liquid XP as appropriate. This might be a good use for the Attuner beyond enchanting.
3. Attuned adamantite can then be slowly smelted in any furnace, or rapidly smelted in a high-tier specialized machine.

I'd say 3-step processing should be as far as you go, and only for the "best" (if that can be said) metals in a given metal group. Low-tier metals should just be one step ore-to-ingots, while the middle ones are either one or two step.

 

[Joporai124]

Hey guys sorry if this is in the wrong place but I recently installed Metallurgy 3 and load up my game and the Vanilla tools had been replaced, is there a way to stop this from happening as I do not like the look of the new Vanilla tools, especially considering I am using PureBDCraft for my Resource pack and the Metallurgy patch doesn't texture them.

P.S I am on Minecraft 1.6.4 using the new Minecraft installer.

 

[epidemia78]

I wish I had seen this thread sooner. Like most guys on this forum, I viewed Metallurgy as useless.

But when I realized how much I loved processing and hoarding ingots back in 1.4.7, I gave the mod another look. The fact you can make metal bricks (4 ingots equals 4 bricks) out of some of the useful metals that were already in my pack sealed the deal and I went ahead and installed it and replaced all of the brick textures with some I borrowed from a sci-fi texture pack. And it was hugely entertaining trying to find all of the expensive blocks I needed to finish my base. I also replaced all of the armor textures too and set up a display area for all of the different sets. Tons of fun. The only thing that bothered me about the whole setup is that I couldnt make bricks out of thermal expansion lead which is something I always have too much of.

Nowadays, I am not using Metallurgy because Chisel has better looking blocks often with connected textures and I dont need to change them... But they are too cheap to give that same feeling of accomplishment I got from building a base out of precious metals. The default metallurgy brick textures are just different shades of the same texture so I would have to go around replacing textures again to make it worthwhile. One thing that sets Metallurgy apart from other mods is the quality of its sprites. It would be awesome in my opinion if the same attention was paid to the blocks. Specifically if they looked less like bricks and more like metal ranging from rusty and worn to steampunk bronze to futuristic plating depending on the material. Other suggestions:

Less ores, more alloys.
Metal things other than blocks like gears and stacks of ingots like you'd see in a vault. Chests (but you already have those) and doors.
Lead.

 

[Joporai124]

There's a config option for this.


Hi! I am me! Sent from Tapa something...

I sorted it.

 

[Texaporta]

I've spent a good amount of time playing around with this mod, as well as researching the tier progression and smelting recipes. Please don't take the sharing of some of my frustrations with this mod as saying that the mod is generally bad or lacking creativity.


1: Documentation and clarity.

Right now the documentation level of this mod is very poor in regards to up-to-date and easy to find information. Alt-tabbing out constantly is a chore when I've already gone through that process with multiple other mods which offer ore processing and tool making. Don't force a player to click through 15 pages of forum posts to figure out that pylons help with enchanting or keep a spreadsheet open so they know alloy recipes/tiers. Tooltips are great if they can be managed.

2: Mod is called Metallurgy but lacks any real metallurgical content.

Ever done a bronze or brass smelt? They certainly don't look like throwing a pile of powder into an EZ-Bake. Minecraft and most mods including TiCo handle ore processing like baking a cake or mixing up chocolate milk. This is where your mod can distinguish itself. This is somewhat echoing what Zahfalade posted in the previous page about ore processing.

There is a wealth of information available about the interesting chemical and molecular properties of lots of metals. There is a huge amount of history to draw from. I'm not talking about total conversion or TerraFirmaCraft levels of realism/tedium, just that there are some very interesting processes out there to incorporate. Look up Henry Bessemer and how widespread adoption of his steel-making process absolutely changed the world if you want to be inspired by ore-processing technologies.

I honestly hope to see this mod flourish and find its niche. As for right now though, it seems to be much more trouble than it is really worth, especially alongside more comprehensive mods with much better documentation which users tend to already be familiar with. Think about what made you install your first mod. It likely added a functionality which was new and interesting, otherwise it is unlikely you'd have gone through the struggle of modifying configs and learning new processes. I also feel that epidemia78 is correct in requesting fewer ores and more alloys, adding that alloys don't always need to be made with raw ores as ingredients but can include reagents/catalysts and differences in materials handling.

Thank you for asking for input. It shows real maturity and honesty to ask for criticism of your work in a public forum.

 

[TheZopilote]

Hey all, just wanted to say I'm really enjoying metallurgy 4, and I really like the course that the mod is taking and I'm seeing great discussion here. Pleasantries aside, I just want whoever it was that thought Angmallen was a good idea to literally [no, not quite literally] drink a hot glass of it. I'm in a modpack running 1.6.4 and there seems to be a way to cancel the recipes and the formation of ingots, but no way to prevent it from being created in the TiCon smeltery (unless some hidden config in either JAMI or TiCon is eluding me). I just want him/her [the developer] to know that a small, cozy circle of hell is waiting for them where sad and angry minecrafters beat said developer for all eternity with angmallen ingots. Other than that, great work! Action items: Remove the s*** out of angmallen or prepare self for eternities of merciless beatings.

 

[buggirlexpres]

Hey all, just wanted to say I'm really enjoying metallurgy 4, and I really like the course that the mod is taking and I'm seeing great discussion here. Pleasantries aside, I just want whoever it was that thought Angmallen was a good idea to literally [no, not quite literally] drink a hot glass of it. I'm in a modpack running 1.6.4 and there seems to be a way to cancel the recipes and the formation of ingots, but no way to prevent it from being created in the TiCon smeltery (unless some hidden config in either JAMI or TiCon is eluding me). I just want him/her [the developer] to know that a small, cozy circle of hell is waiting for them where sad and angry minecrafters beat said developer for all eternity with angmallen ingots. Other than that, great work! Action items: Remove the s*** out of angmallen or prepare self for eternities of merciless beatings.

If you're in 1.6.4, you can use Minetweaker to remove the TiC Smeltery recipes.

 

[thephoenixlodge]

Hey all, just wanted to say I'm really enjoying metallurgy 4, and I really like the course that the mod is taking and I'm seeing great discussion here. Pleasantries aside, I just want whoever it was that thought Angmallen was a good idea to literally [no, not quite literally] drink a hot glass of it. I'm in a modpack running 1.6.4 and there seems to be a way to cancel the recipes and the formation of ingots, but no way to prevent it from being created in the TiCon smeltery (unless some hidden config in either JAMI or TiCon is eluding me). I just want him/her [the developer] to know that a small, cozy circle of hell is waiting for them where sad and angry minecrafters beat said developer for all eternity with angmallen ingots. Other than that, great work! Action items: Remove the s*** out of angmallen or prepare self for eternities of merciless beatings.

Extra TiC is the mod that adds the TiC compatibility to Metallurgy, try its config.

 

[TheZopilote]

Hey, all. Thanks for the input so far. No luck with ExtraTiC config in the sense of a big red "disable" button. MineTweaker is an option, but I can't get my syntax right. I realize it's outside the purpose of this discussion line, but does anyone know the command line in MineTweaker that would work to remove angmallen?

 

[thephoenixlodge]

Hey, all. Thanks for the input so far. No luck with ExtraTiC config in the sense of a big red "disable" button. MineTweaker is an option, but I can't get my syntax right. I realize it's outside the purpose of this discussion line, but does anyone know the command line in MineTweaker that would work to remove angmallen?

Well, while the ExtraTiC config doesn't have a 'disable this liquid' option, it does have options for altering ratios for making the alloys. What happens if you set the gold and iron input and the angmallen output all to 0 ingots?
As for using Modtweaker to remove the alloying recipe to make angmallen, try the following:

mods.tconstruct.Smeltery.removeAlloy(<liquid:angmellen.molten>);

The liquid id may be wrong, but you can check that yourself ingame with the "/mt liquids" command.

 

[TheZopilote]

I have thought of that, but wouldn't it create the alloy at the cost of consuming the ingots in the process? As in: It would just eat the ingots?

EDIT: Nvm, I see your logic. Will give it a shot. Thanks, Phoenix