Metallurgy Discussion

Shadowclaimer

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Jul 29, 2019
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Hey there ladies and gents, Shadowclaimer here. Project lead of Metallurgy. I've come here looking to discuss a few points and get some feedback en mass from fans and users of the mod. With 1.7 shuffling around a lot of things we're looking to restructure the mod and address a lot of issues with some core fundamentals that were too entangled before to really mess with.

For those who don't use Metallurgy (either not a fan of it or were overwhelmed), I need your feedback as well. Effectively we're seeking to more actively engage the community on features and issues they're running into with the mod. Its an old mod, we've been around for almost 3 years now, and there's a lot of leftover things from the more archaic times of design that i'd like to change and address. I know people have issues with the number of metals (which is understandable, and I'll get to some explanation for those who don't understand particularly why we pursue the setup we have), but moreso I'm looking for things I can help do to improve the enjoyment of players of the mod in general.

So with 1.7 Metallurgy will be relaunching as Metallurgy: Re4rged (M4). Metallurgy right now has gone Open Source as of last night, and no longer requires permissions for modpacks. We're actively seeking members of the community to visit our Github, help out, suggest and discuss upcoming changes and ideas/concepts. (You can find the Github at https://github.com/TeamMetallurgy/Metallurgy)

So to get started, let's discuss design specifics.

For those not in the know on how Metallurgy is setup or what it is. Metallurgy was a comprehensive attempt to expand the "Mine" aspect of Minecraft. It drew heavy inspiration from Dwarf Fortress and other games that have a metric ton of ores/metals and allowed you to mix them to make new ones. The original Metallurgy had a structured tier system and actually changed the core metal statistics (which proved unpopular and was removed.)

All the metals in Metallurgy are broken into "Metal Packs", originally these were separate downloads (and if we ever get a launcher, it may return to that system) but as of now are one single download (with configs to disable metals). Each metal pack was given a "goal" or a role effectively.

Base Metals is a core set of metals. It contains and revolves between the Wood and Diamond tiers of vanilla Minecraft. These metals are straightforward (Copper, Tin, Bronze, Hepatizon, Angmallen, Manganese, Steel) and are usually metals used by other mods as well. The Base Metal Machines (Crusher and upgraded Furnaces) were also straightforward in their use to increase your output as a Miner.

Precious Metals were a series of metals added to the Overworld. They are akin to Gold (high Enchantability, low Durability, high Speed) and are moreso meant to be used sparingly or to make Alloys with other metal sets. The Precious Metal "Machines" were the enhanced Chests with more room.

Nether Metals were a series of metals added to the Nether, they vary in strength from Iron to post-Diamond, and have special effects when weapons were crafted out of them. They're relatively rare, and meant to encourage exploration of the Nether for more than just Glowstone and Nether Forts. The Nether Metal Machines were the Smelters, which are lava powered Furnaces effectively.

Fantasy Metals was a tricky one, its intent was as a series of metals that could be introduced to other dimensions through configs (Twilight Forest is my personal favorite to confine them to). You can do that, but most people just leave them in the overworld. They're more rare but typically a little better than their equivalents in the Base Metal sets (usually with enchantability) and are the largest set we created. Their machine, the Abstractor, consumes metals to generate experience orbs based on the enchantability of the metal.

Utility Ores were just that, a series of materials you can mine, mix, and create bits with. Usually they replaced Mob Drops (Bitumen can be cooked into Tar, which is a Slimeball replacement, etc.) or they can be used to make advanced variants of TNT.

Most people when they see Metallurgy think we've aimed at just throwing worthless metals in a "more stuff" fashion at the game. It wasn't our intent, there were direct systems in place and intended uses for each and every metal in the long run. We've come to find actually that our fans are a mixed breed, some of them run as many metals as they can get their hands on (IE: we could go the more stuff route if we wanted to and they wouldn't care) and others want each and every metal to have specific and unique uses. I'm privy to both sides, I want to offer players who want more metals to be able to add them and set them up however they wish, but at the same time I don't want to bloat the mod if it isn't necessary. Metal packs have allowed us to do such, you are not required to get more than a few metals if you don't want them, and I can personally sit down and design aspects and uses for each individual metal.

Our biggest barrier to entry we're coming to find however isn't the metals we add or anything to do with the such, its actually information. Our mod has a huge problem with requiring external sources of info, and is scant typically on those sources. For instance, view our main "spreadsheet" (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...dEQ1X2JNOHgteUFRRGtFMlo0ZUQxN2c&usp=drive_web) this is the most useful piece of information any of our users have, and most have it bookmarked. I HATE the fact that is the case. I don't want our players to have to camp on a wiki or on that spreadsheet all day to figure out what to do next, its a huge detriment to the mod and to our players and I feel like its one of our biggest weaknesses. "What metal mines this, what metal mines that, where can I find X, what do I need to upgrade my machine next?" etc. etc.

Going forward, I'm shifting as much information into the game as we feasibly can. Tooltips are going to be EVERYWHERE. Our metals will display their statistics on their bars and tools, our ores will have direct information right in their tooltips. I want to see about introducing more sources of information in general, books, info tabs, etc. directly into the game itself to attempt to alleviate this frustration. Any ideas on things we can do to help with that are a godsend at this time.

In the same vein, our machines are losing their current upgrade tier system for a new UI based upgrade system. You'll build one core Machine (Crusher for instance), and then you'll have a tab on that machine's GUI that will show an upgrade bar, item type, and item slot (with name/bonus). For instance, the next upgrade of the Crusher might be Copper Gears, which require Copper Bars (and increase the machine's speed). By placing Copper Bars into the slot it will consume them to fill the meter and eventually grant the machine increased speed (and then show the new upgrade you're working towards.) I'd like these upgrades to be displayed as enchantments on the machines themselves even. This will allow players to upgrade their machines without breaking them, adding them to a recipe, rinse and repeat.

We're also highly looking into more systems for consumption of metals. In design I have a "metal profit" ratio. You as the player should not be gaining exponentially more metal to the point where it becomes useful, and if it does I need "metal sinks" just like an economy has its "gold sinks". You should have ways to dump old metals and make them useful always (even if they aren't on par for tools for you at the moment), we noticed in server tests the Abstractor was HUGE for this, players ate that device up and used it frequently and we're looking into more sources and uses for metals as well as more weapon/armor abilities for Nether/Fantasy metals.

Overall, I just want to talk about Metallurgy in general. Its hard for me to get feedback at times on MCF, and this seems like a core down to earth place to discuss things going forward and where I want to kick things off with 1.7 and M4.

So what do you want to see out of the mod? What can we do to accommodate the users more, servers more, and modpacks more? If you don't play Metallurgy, why? What can we do to earn your download?
 

mushroom taco

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Oh cool, loaded this thread 10 minutes after its creation.

I think metallurgy is a great mod, but when used in conjunction with mod packs like this, it can... Well, overbloat the terrain generation. Especially if people can't mess with configs.

Anyway, how is metallurgy 3 coming? More specifically, what will set it apart from metallurgy 1/2? I plan on adding metallurgy when I make my mod pack for 1.6, so I would love to catch up some ;)
 

Shadowclaimer

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Oh cool, loaded this thread 10 minutes after its creation.

I think metallurgy is a great mod, but when used in conjunction with mod packs like this, it can... Well, overbloat the terrain generation. Especially if people can't mess with configs.

Anyway, how is metallurgy 3 coming? More specifically, what will set it apart from metallurgy 1/2? I plan on adding metallurgy when I make my mod pack for 1.6, so I would love to catch up some ;)


M3 was mostly a backend sequel, Keith completely and utterly rewrote everything in the back end from my old code and rebuilt it from the ground up for efficiency and performance. Its already out =P

I can understand the bloat to terraingen being a concern, the "rainbow cave" effect has been something I've fought heavily when designing and working on Metallurgy. Its something I try to avoid at any cost. We've tried to make things super-configurable to accommodate those that want to customize their experience to a T and intend to work even more on with M4.

Feel free to swing by IRC on Espernet (#Metallurgy) I'm on there all the time.
 

Eyamaz

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As a modpack designer, the biggest thing I like to see from mods is compatibility. I know this came up a few times in your stream last night, but I was working on things and more so listening than wanting to interupt.

The pipe ideas you outlined last night were very well thought out and wanting them to be buildcraft compatible would be great if you can manage it. Being able to use metallurgy metals to extend BC pipes would be great.

As far as alloys, if you refactor them, they should be kept in line similar to other mods with the same alloys, or at least a config option to allow them to be changed to be the same (output wise.)

That also makes me bring a point to steel. Steel is probably the hardest "alloy" to get balanced since so many mods have different ways to make steel. To easy and it throws a mod like Railcraft off balance, to hard and well, players complain if a mod they are used to has easy steel.

As far as other mechanics, well, config files. Robust and properly named config options is something I love in a mod for modpacks. Don't like a feature? Feature = false. Need to balance a fuel because of other mods? Adjust the configs. These are things I love when mod authors add them, it makes fixing some "balance" issues very easy.

That's all I can think of atm. Gl:hf
 

Pokefenn

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I've always had a interest in metallurgy, glancing at it for about 10 minutes then being turned off by the amount of ores :/
But from the sounds of it, it may end up being less of a problem.
May end up installing metallurgy tonight, i already have alot of ores, why not go the whole way :D
Will say more stuff later :3
 
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Shadowclaimer

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As a modpack designer, the biggest thing I like to see from mods is compatibility. I know this came up a few times in your stream last night, but I was working on things and more so listening than wanting to interupt.

The pipe ideas you outlined last night were very well thought out and wanting them to be buildcraft compatible would be great if you can manage it. Being able to use metallurgy metals to extend BC pipes would be great.

As far as alloys, if you refactor them, they should be kept in line similar to other mods with the same alloys, or at least a config option to allow them to be changed to be the same (output wise.)

That also makes me bring a point to steel. Steel is probably the hardest "alloy" to get balanced since so many mods have different ways to make steel. To easy and it throws a mod like Railcraft off balance, to hard and well, players complain if a mod they are used to has easy steel.

As far as other mechanics, well, config files. Robust and properly named config options is something I love in a mod for modpacks. Don't like a feature? Feature = false. Need to balance a fuel because of other mods? Adjust the configs. These are things I love when mod authors add them, it makes fixing some "balance" issues very easy.

That's all I can think of atm. Gl:hf


Compatibility is something I've focused on since the beginning as much as possible. I wanted to build Metallurgy as a "platform" to help set some standards on ore balance and design. A lot of mods with Copper/Tin/Bronze/Steel flat out just don't even try to reign in balance without any regard for other mods. I definitely have hit a LOT of issues with mods that we line up with (Steel is a HUGE one that has been nothing but hell since, when I first started Metallurgy the only other big "Steel" mod was IC2's Refined Iron) there's been so many times I almost just flat out renamed our metals just to avoid those issues and its still a possibility at this point. The simplest solution we offer to the problem at the moment is to simply disable other mod's copper/tin/etc. and leave ours on. We'll have to see how 1.7 changes the Ore Dictionary, but it might actually serve to further compatibility by allowing us to disable other mod's ores by name (and config choice of course) and force balance one way or another.

Config files are also something we've always had and intend to continue fully supporting going forward. I'm huge on the end-user experience, a player should be able to tweak Metallurgy to their heart's content through configs. If you ever have any ideas for anything we can do to accommodate interlocking with other mods, I'm always ears, most of the time they aren't hard things to do.
 

mushroom taco

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As a modpack designer, the biggest thing I like to see from mods is compatibility. I know this came up a few times in your stream last night, but I was working on things and more so listening than wanting to interupt.

The pipe ideas you outlined last night were very well thought out and wanting them to be buildcraft compatible would be great if you can manage it. Being able to use metallurgy metals to extend BC pipes would be great.

As far as alloys, if you refactor them, they should be kept in line similar to other mods with the same alloys, or at least a config option to allow them to be changed to be the same (output wise.)

That also makes me bring a point to steel. Steel is probably the hardest "alloy" to get balanced since so many mods have different ways to make steel. To easy and it throws a mod like Railcraft off balance, to hard and well, players complain if a mod they are used to has easy steel.

As far as other mechanics, well, config files. Robust and properly named config options is something I love in a mod for modpacks. Don't like a feature? Feature = false. Need to balance a fuel because of other mods? Adjust the configs. These are things I love when mod authors add them, it makes fixing some "balance" issues very easy.

That's all I can think of atm. Gl:hf
This. It would be really awesome to see things like metallurgy alloying in a tinkers construct smeltery (though not specifically support for making tools, that would take alot of work), thermal expansion induction furnace alloying, Etc etc

I LOVE things like that.
 

Shadowclaimer

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This. It would be really awesome to see things like metallurgy alloying in a tinkers construct smeltery (though not specifically support for making tools, that would take alot of work), thermal expansion induction furnace alloying, Etc etc

I LOVE things like that.


Its actually a "bug" that we're not working with the smeltery. There's a guy in IRC who has a fix and we're working on getting it merged ;) with Lemming's retirement its been hard to really sit down and get things done with TE. I'll put a note under issues to remind me to talk to whoever takes over the project.

Github is going to really help us get organized with stuff like this.
 

MigukNamja

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If the goal is integrate well and be balanced WRT other, well-established and widely-used mods like RC, TiC, and TE, and if that goal is achieved, Metallurgy should have a bright future.

I also like your phrase "rainbow cave". Those two words say a lot and I can't agree more ;-)

I'll download it tonight and give it a go !
 

Eyamaz

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This. It would be really awesome to see things like metallurgy alloying in a tinkers construct smeltery (though not specifically support for making tools, that would take alot of work), thermal expansion induction furnace alloying, Etc etc

I LOVE things like that.

Haha, the tinkers support was briefly brought up last night. Apparently a lot of people (including myself possibly) are trying to do a metallurgy tconstruct add-on.
 

Shadowclaimer

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Haha, the tinkers support was briefly brought up last night. Apparently a lot of people (including myself possibly) are trying to do a metallurgy tconstruct add-on.


I think our best bet is to get you all working off the Github together and merging little bits here and there that'll add up. Might be better in the long run with multiple people working together on it like that.
 
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Eyamaz

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You might want to look into making it a child mod that only loads if TiCo is present. I don't think adding your ores themselves to the smeltery will be the hard part. Making all the liquids, tool parts, and balancing the metal effects will be the biggest issue. Idk, I'm not very well versed with the forge API yet and haven't even looked at TiCo's API.
 

Shadowclaimer

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You might want to look into making it a child mod that only loads if TiCo is present. I don't think adding your ores themselves to the smeltery will be the hard part. Making all the liquids, tool parts, and balancing the metal effects will be the biggest issue. Idk, I'm not very well versed with the forge API yet and haven't even looked at TiCo's API.


Yea that's true, we can just do a submod, its not a big deal. The metal tool parts are honestly the absolute hardest part, mDiyo, myself, Odininon, etc. have all taken shots at it and given up lol
 

Velotican

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I think the big question I'd ask right off the bat is: how open are you to addon mods that create uses for the materials you add to the game, or create interoperability with other mods' features (including but not limited to allowing your materials to work in fuelling/crafting their machines, etc.)?

I really like the core concept of Metallurgy, which is why I've recently restored it controversially to the Resonant Rise modpack's testing build. It's generating the expected controversy and I still need to tune things, but for the most part it's looking like a good fit that admittedly sticks out slightly. Plus I love detailed oregen control. :D

The most common complaint I hear as a player and now as a modpack dev is that players hate having "junk" taking space in their chests. This suggests that players are very reluctant to throw away things that they find, which is an interesting psychological facet your mod brings out that you could capitalise on. :)
 

Shadowclaimer

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I think the big question I'd ask right off the bat is: how open are you to addon mods that create uses for the materials you add to the game, or create interoperability with other mods' features (including but not limited to allowing your materials to work in fuelling/crafting their machines, etc.)?

I really like the core concept of Metallurgy, which is why I've recently restored it controversially to the Resonant Rise modpack's testing build. It's generating the expected controversy and I still need to tune things, but for the most part it's looking like a good fit that admittedly sticks out slightly. Plus I love detailed oregen control. :D

The most common complaint I hear as a player and now as a modpack dev is that players hate having "junk" taking space in their chests. This suggests that players are very reluctant to throw away things that they find, which is an interesting psychological facet your mod brings out that you could capitalise on. :)


I'm glad we're on the same page, I'm entirely and utterly open to other mods wanting to take advantage of us. I'm in talks with another dev right now who's going to help us with a plugin system actually so other mods can more easily make features using our metals. There's a really solid UE Addon floating about actually that uses Metallurgy metals to make machines.

I'm entirely open to compatibility, both on our side and theirs. Addons are something I want to foster, when I built this mod I wanted to create a platform others could work off of and that's always going to be a core fundamental to me going forward.

And yes, hoarding is always hilarious. I find myself doing it quite often. Part of what I enjoy doing is actually collecting/storing metals, it almost becomes a "scoreboard" for me sometimes seeing how much I can get.
 

Staxed

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I'm easy to please, as I like options...I'm one of the ones that likes tons of different metals (I'm a collector), but ensuring all of them actually have some sort of unique use is paramount to. While I don't mind just filling a DSU with something, if I can actually USE it later that would be nice....lol :D.

Also, I think the idea of disabling the generation of other mods ores would be a huge step towards helping with terrain generation...only having 1 type of tin (useable by all mods) generating rather than 4 types would certainly cut down on the rainbow cave effect.
 

Shadowclaimer

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I'm easy to please, as I like options...I'm one of the ones that likes tons of different metals (I'm a collector), but ensuring all of them actually have some sort of unique use is paramount to. While I don't mind just filling a DSU with something, if I can actually USE it later that would be nice....lol :D.

Also, I think the idea of disabling the generation of other mods ores would be a huge step towards helping with terrain generation...only having 1 type of tin (useable by all mods) generating rather than 4 types would certainly cut down on the rainbow cave effect.


I need to find a way to do that though. Right now the way I personally handle it is I go in and hand-disable all other mod's metals that we share and then let us handle their spawning. Someone on the MCF just brought up that they want to let us handle all generation for other mods, which I'm totally on board with if we can find a proper way to do it. (Config that lets you choose an ID and spawn that according to our own settings for instance.)

Another part of this is also on other mod author's parts, they need to let users manage ore spawns all the way to zero if wanted to, it would make our job immensely easier.


cant go wrong with books all mods should have them

Agreed, just gotta find out what info to put in a book and how to display it better.
 

Eyamaz

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I'm easy to please, as I like options...I'm one of the ones that likes tons of different metals (I'm a collector), but ensuring all of them actually have some sort of unique use is paramount to. While I don't mind just filling a DSU with something, if I can actually USE it later that would be nice....lol :D.

Also, I think the idea of disabling the generation of other mods ores would be a huge step towards helping with terrain generation...only having 1 type of tin (useable by all mods) generating rather than 4 types would certainly cut down on the rainbow cave effect.

If you have a modpack and 4 tin types are generating, the pack author did it wrong. Almost every "big" mod offers the abilty to disable world gen features like ore in their config files.

Also, shadowclaimer, have you thought of doing a biome specific world gen for your ores? It would reduce the rainbow effect and create an exploration need for modpacks. Adding a whitelist for biomes in the config for each ore to be able to add support for world gen mods like BoP would be perfect. Of course a Boolean config to turn it on or off for people that don't like that sort of thing.
 
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Shadowclaimer

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If you have a modpack and 4 tin types are generating, the pack author did it wrong. Almost every "big" mod offers the abilty to disable world gen features like ore in their config files.

Also, shadowclaimer, have you thought of doing a biome specific world gen for your ores? It would reduce the rainbow effect and create an exploration need for modpacks. Adding a whitelist for biomes in the config for each ore to be able to add support for world gen mods like BoP would be perfect. Of course a Boolean config to turn it on or off for people that don't like that sort of thing.


Its been discussed heavily. The biggest issue is of course, as you said, config options for it and getting all the biome mods to play nicely. Its on the "to do" somewhere down the line, especially post 1.7 since Mojang will be "locked in" on biomes pretty much.