Metallurgy Discussion

[Eyamaz]

See, I think it already fits pretty well in lower-power packs (usually ones focused around dimension mods). It's just that FTB isn't one. There's a few things I think are essential for mods of your type to fit in with tech mods:

• Special Effects: Right now Metallurgy to my knowledge is a bunch of really powerful, but overall similar tools/armor. There are a ton of things that could be added to specific metals to help out. Autorepair? Autosmelting/grinding? Extended range? Electric? AoE? Insta-mine ore/gravel veins? Significantly better at mining weak/strong materials? TELEPORTATING THROUGH WALLS (*cough*ender metals*cough*)??? Heck, you could even add these to basic metals and as you combine them they get both effects.
• Overall power level needs increasing if it's going to be in tech packs, but I already mentioned this.
• Non-tool/weapon/armor utility devices. Every great mod has at least one device that makes it special.

And if you add things drastically more powerful than the current norm you can always have a config for it. I just feel it's a damn shame that a great concept like Metallurgy can't really work in a tech pack.

See, I disagree with this for a big reason. When I take "balancing" into account, I use what most people consider the "core" tech mods and do comparisons. These mods being IC2, TE, BC, Forestry, Railcraft, etc. Not what I consider "Feature" mods like MMMPS or TiCo (which TiCo support is being worked on.)

Metallurgy, in itself and with the planned changes, fits in with the general gameplay of these "core" mods. Albeit in a different way atm. Once M4 is released and a well made API is in place, more support will be done by the "Feature" type mods.

I'd rather see the development of M4 go down the "core" type route and let others implement the "Features." If you look at the number of add-ons, or mods that extend mods like IC2 or BC, it may be the smarter thing for M4 to become instead of doing it itself. This gives other mod authors breathing room for designing their mods to work with it.

Edit: Also, M4 has the potential currently to fit in as a "core" type mod for other themes of modpacks than just tech. Magic and RPG type packs can greatly benefit from the vast array of metals and tools currently offered. Esp if mods like Ars Magica 2 or TC4 take them into account.

 

[Shadowclaimer]

See, I disagree with this for a big reason. When I take "balancing" into account, I use what most people consider the "core" tech mods and do comparisons. These mods being IC2, TE, BC, Forestry, Railcraft, etc. Not what I consider "Feature" mods like MMMPS or TiCo (which TiCo support is being worked on.)

Metallurgy, in itself and with the planned changes, fits in with the general gameplay of these "core" mods. Albeit in a different way atm. Once M4 is released and a well made API is in place, more support will be done by the "Feature" type mods.

I'd rather see the development of M4 go down the "core" type route and let others implement the "Features." If you look at the number of add-ons, or mods that extend mods like IC2 or BC, it may be the smarter thing for M4 to become instead of doing it itself. This gives other mod authors breathing room for designing their mods to work with it.

Edit: Also, M4 has the potential currently to fit in as a "core" type mod for other themes of modpacks than just tech. Magic and RPG type packs can greatly benefit from the vast array of metals and tools currently offered. Esp if mods like Ars Magica 2 or TC4 take them into account.

Pretty much summed up our goals right there.

 

[zahfelade]

I just thought of one other thing about the progression of machinery & technology. The thing (or at least one of the things) that limits technological advance is not the materials used, but the refining process. Bronze was used in very early civilizations because it was easier to work with than iron: " In thehistory of ferrous metallurgy, iron smelting—the extraction of usable metal from oxidized iron ores — is more difficult than tin and copper smelting. These other metals and their alloys can be cold-worked, or melted in simple pottery kilns and cast in molds; but smelted iron requires hot-working and can be melted only in specially designed furnaces. It is therefore not surprising that humans only mastered iron smelting after several millennia of bronze metallurgy."
In Minecraft the process for creating ingots from ore doesn't change from copper to tin to iron to gold to silver to mithril or any other metal. One of the key reasons that so many metals in previous versions of Metallurgy seemed useless, is because you could easily skip them. I love TiCo, but it suffer's from the same problem. Once you build a smeltery, you can make ANY metal you want. The only mod that I've seen thus far that has (IMO) handled this well is Railcraft. You have to go to the Nether, and gather items from the bowels of hell in order to create a structure that can withstand and generate the heat needed to process iron into steel. No other mod that I've used takes the melting point or other processing difficulties into account...it's just a matter of getting a tool that is hard enough to mine the raw material. From that point on, it's just as easy to craft a wooden pick as it is to craft a diamond one.

You should take a stab at trying to address this problem with Metallurgy 4

 

[Dylan4ever]

I highly suggest dimension mods with Metallurgy, they play great with them.

The thing was i tried to keep the power level low. I don't like mods that just let players go to town with some of the most absurd things possible.

The hard thing is to add mid/late game content that consumes said tools/weapons. Mobs of some sort are outside our scope, we're not a mob mod, we're an ore and machine mod. At worst I could add golems of our metals for any metals you have enabled that are really rare mobs or something and it'd still fit the theme, otherwise we're really SOL.

But yea, I do fully agree, more mid-late game content and more things to consume metals are MAJOR must-haves for us in the core of Metallurgy.

Heck yeah, still can't wait to play the Erebus with Metallurgy. The Erebus over-balancing (which causes high-end ores to become very rare, I have yet to see a single Diamond ore) would play very well with the progression in this mod.

For me, the main problem with Metallurgy is something outside of Metallurgy. Mods such as TiC and MPS do not understand balance very well. I love TiC, but getting Cobalt/Ardite to make Manyllum, which is on-par with Tartarite in therms of durability and such, is just ridiculously easy once you get a Nether portal. And I don't even wanna get started about MPS, the balance in that mod is very much broken.
This sad fact makes most Metallurgy ores useless, since something much better is quickly available. Metallurgy support for TiC will definitly help giving you a reason to mine it once again.
The only mods so far that handle balance very well are Twilight Forest, Railcraft, and Metallurgy. I love the fact that everything is balanced around vanilla in Metallurgy, and doesn't create a whole new layer of strength which renders all vanilla mobs obsolete.

The amount of choice you have in this mod is also really great. Even though you won't use most, the fact that you can is really nice. More special effects would definitly help, to ensure each ore has a unique use (of the higher-end ones at least), but with a mod of this size, I understand that that isn't a walk in the park.

Shadowclaimer, I love ya man, and I am looking forward to M4 very much.[DOUBLEPOST=1379760022][/DOUBLEPOST]

See, I disagree with this for a big reason. When I take "balancing" into account, I use what most people consider the "core" tech mods and do comparisons. These mods being IC2, TE, BC, Forestry, Railcraft, etc. Not what I consider "Feature" mods like MMMPS or TiCo (which TiCo support is being worked on.)

Metallurgy, in itself and with the planned changes, fits in with the general gameplay of these "core" mods. Albeit in a different way atm. Once M4 is released and a well made API is in place, more support will be done by the "Feature" type mods.

I'd rather see the development of M4 go down the "core" type route and let others implement the "Features." If you look at the number of add-ons, or mods that extend mods like IC2 or BC, it may be the smarter thing for M4 to become instead of doing it itself. This gives other mod authors breathing room for designing their mods to work with it.

Edit: Also, M4 has the potential currently to fit in as a "core" type mod for other themes of modpacks than just tech. Magic and RPG type packs can greatly benefit from the vast array of metals and tools currently offered. Esp if mods like Ars Magica 2 or TC4 take them into account.

I agree with you in everything you just said.

 

[Mevansuto]

I've only really used Metallurgy in an RPG modpack and I never built any of the machines, but I love the idea of making Metallurgy handle all of the ores. Something to say about the machines is, I'd rather things that are added in a number of mods shouldn't be included in Metallurgy's machines such as pulverisers and electric furnaces. I'd rather the machines did something original so I didn't end up with a 4th version of a pulverizer (IC2, Mekanism, TE). I don't have any ideas what that original thing would be, but I would admire any. I would like however dusts for all of Metallurgy's ores included so that I don't end up putting things in a macerator and it not macerating. Also I would quite like it if the machines ran on Buildcraft or UE power and some form of power generation is added if you are playing with Metallurgy by itself. I would really like TiC support as I wish I could run all of my ore through a smeltery, I don't enjoy having to juggle 2 different ore processing machines early game. Make sure a version of lead is added and any other popular ores such as gemstones or apatite. On the subject of gemstones, I would recommend you add them, I know its not quite Metallurgy, but since 1.5 the only gemstones we have in FtB are the vanilla ones and BoP, which apart from getting a sacred portal, is next to useless. One thing I have noticed playing Metallurgy is that I've accumulated a lot of ore that is next to useless when you get to higher tiers of metal, which is too easy, I got past diamond after a half-hour mining trip. I think that ore spawns should be slightly rarer and there should be more uses for metals other than armour and tools. Maybe there should be something interesting added such as a multiblock structure that generates a lot of power that requires a consistent supply of metals (in the form of plates or gears) and alot of different kinds of metals. Like an alternative to a steam boiler, that requires alot of different metals and is equally or more expensive. think the idea of having biome exclusive metals makes this harder. I'm not sure whether this goes against the point of metallurgy but maybe some kind of automated mining system would be cool, one that is always moving.

 

[Zenthon_127]

For me, the main problem with Metallurgy is something outside of Metallurgy. Mods such as TiC and MPS do not understand balance very well. I love TiC, but getting Cobalt/Ardite to make Manyllum, which is on-par with Tartarite in therms of durability and such, is just ridiculously easy once you get a Nether portal. And I don't even wanna get started about MPS, the balance in that mod is very much broken.
This sad fact makes most Metallurgy ores useless, since something much better is quickly available. Metallurgy support for TiC will definitly help giving you a reason to mine it once again.

I wouldn't say TiC is OP (most people find it pretty well-balanced around here), and MPS isn't nearly as bad as you say. The difference here is that unlike those two mods Metallurgy is balanced mainly around dimensional mods and vanilla. TiC and MPS are specifically balanced around things like IC2 and BC3. Now before you ask "Then why is Twilight Forest in FTB?", that's because TF is basically a free high-density ores world with extremely low altitude and little lava. Place a Quarry over a Hollow Hill and PROFIT!

I was assuming that when you came to the FTB forums you were kinda looking for our advice on how to make it work with an FTB pack (aka tech), but if you just want it to work well with dimensional mods and other lower-power stuff you actually are in a pretty good place because your only real problems there have already been stated here.

That said, I'm not necessarily opposed to an FTB magic/dimensional modpack....

 

[Dylan4ever]

I wouldn't say TiC is OP (most people find it pretty well-balanced around here), and MPS isn't nearly as bad as you say. The difference here is that unlike those two mods Metallurgy is balanced mainly around dimensional mods and vanilla. TiC and MPS are specifically balanced around things like IC2 and BC3. Now before you ask "Then why is Twilight Forest in FTB?", that's because TF is basically a free high-density ores world with extremely low altitude and little lava. Place a Quarry over a Hollow Hill and PROFIT!

I was assuming that when you came to the FTB forums you were kinda looking for our advice on how to make it work with an FTB pack (aka tech), but if you just want it to work well with dimensional mods and other lower-power stuff you actually are in a pretty good place because your only real problems there have already been stated here.

That said, I'm not necessarily opposed to an FTB magic/dimensional modpack....

TiC is pretty well-balanced when considering FTB, but I was just noting that Cobalt and Ardite are a bit too easy to get. Not that that is a bad thing, it gives you a reason to go to the Nether, but I was talking about it in comparison to Metallurgy. Same with MPS. Once you get enough of the good stuff, you are pretty much invincible to anything but Ars Magica 2 bosses. The problem with them is that they often rule out any Metallurgy ores, because they are much easier or better.

Hmm? I'm not really sure if you're talking about me or Shadowclaimer right now, but the reason I came to the FTB forums was because I like FTB, and damn sure gonna include some nice cross-compatibility things in the Erebus.

Me neither, I'd love an FTB pack that is more centered around adventure than tech.

 

[KuroNeko87]

I've been using metallurgy since way back in 1.2.5 and I have loved it ever since... To this day I still use it. I do have a small grievance in the 1.6.2 ver, I don't see any of the ores spawning/generating.

 

[Tat45]

I'd love to see M4 be used by Forge for its worldgen. The way this would work in my vision:

* All non-vanilla ores would be disabled by default
* "ore packs" would be created of logically grouped ores (plus their associated equipment)
* a dependency tree between different ore packs would exist (i.e. "advanced alloys" pack would depend upon "basic metals" pack)
* Mods would register for specific ores, and thus would determine, based upon the aforementioned dependency tree, which ore packs get used for worldgen
* For those players who want rainbow cave cute overload, produce a small mod that would simply mark all ore packs as required for worldgen
I don't currently use M3 because I play FTB Unleashed on a shared server with friends who are utterly disinterested in playing if it requires a lot of tinkering with their Minecraft install. I also fear the rainbow cave. Your higher-end ores should be really, really rare, which I suspect they are.
I wish I were a better Java developer so I could help out. I'm a Perl/SQL guy. =/

I look forward to seeing M3/M4 become part of the FTB family.

 

[Mevansuto]

I'd love to see M4 be used by Forge for its worldgen. The way this would work in my vision:

* All non-vanilla ores would be disabled by default
* "ore packs" would be created of logically grouped ores (plus their associated equipment)
* a dependency tree between different ore packs would exist (i.e. "advanced alloys" pack would depend upon "basic metals" pack)
* Mods would register for specific ores, and thus would determine, based upon the aforementioned dependency tree, which ore packs get used for worldgen
* For those players who want rainbow cave cute overload, produce a small mod that would simply mark all ore packs as required for worldgen
I don't currently use M3 because I play FTB Unleashed on a shared server with friends who are utterly disinterested in playing if it requires a lot of tinkering with their Minecraft install. I also fear the rainbow cave. Your higher-end ores should be really, really rare, which I suspect they are.
I wish I were a better Java developer so I could help out. I'm a Perl/SQL guy. =/

I look forward to seeing M3/M4 become part of the FTB family.

This would add alot of balence between mods I think. It'd probably be best if stuff like Power Ore from Dartcraft remained spawned by Dartcraft though and ores only spawned if a mod requested it. But I think alot of people are opposed to Forge changing too much of the base game. Also this would likely break compatibility with all old worlds and we'd need new FTB packs.

 

[Shadowclaimer]

Well all this feedback has helped immensely guys, I've posted and modified a lot of issues we've got up on the Github. I highly suggest you guys swing by and comment on anything you really like or support, give us some ideas on things you really want to see, post your own issues, etc. compiling it all on there has been a huge help to get us going.

https://github.com/TeamMetallurgy/Metallurgy/issues?state=open

 

[Skyqula]

I have never played with metallurgy. Not because I dont want to do the configs, as thats actually something thats part of the fun for me when playing modded minecraft (more configs! <3). And the mod does seem very interesting as far as mining goes, wich is absolutly something I love doing. Its just that I dont see what it adds? The vanilla tools with enchants are already pretty solid, Dartcraft adds a more grindy but less random version of that, TiC adds an obsolutly awesome way of doing tools and then the "tech" (IC2/MMPS) tools add the kinda boring everlasting tools. Why add a mod that adds more tools? (with an overly complex forum pic to try figure out what mines what let alone what strengths they have)

Now if ores wont be used for tools, what would I use them for? Decorative blocks would be cool, but there are so manny other options already. And while multiple diminsion configured with different ores would be realy awesome I just dont see what I would want to do with the ores. Exp generator? Why? Basic mob grinders will do that just fine, as will just mining in general. Not to even mention something like MFR's mob essence.

So hearing TiC support is comming sounds amazing and would be a big plus for me to give it a try. But what would realy be amazing is if the ores would get addopted alot more by the other mods or could be used as alternatives in mods like TE/MFR/IC2/EA/TC/TiC/Dartcraft. What would also be amazing would be competability with mystcraft. Altough, IMO, thats a double edged sword. Mystcraft is a mod with huge potential, but its extremely OP and cheap in survival. Perfect for Admins/Mapmaking. Terrible for multiplayer balance. Not sure this should be a priority...

I personally dont see much point into using metallurgey untill there are some interesting mods actually using the ores for there content.

 

[lindyhopfan]

I like the new crusher recipes proposed on the github, per ShadowClaimer:

"Implementation of some new recipes for the Crusher to add additional functionality.
Cobblestone > Gravel
Smoothstone > Gravel
Gravel > Sand
Netherrack > Soul Sand
Glowstone > 4x Glowstone Dust
Sandstone > 4x Sand
Log > 2x Sawdust
Sawdust is smeltable into Charcoal, so it effectively doubles your Charcoal output with an additional step."

This is sweet. Since the 1.6 version of Thermal Expansion is not out yet, I've been missing the ability to make sand out of cobble rather than search for a desert or rip up beaches.

I still think Metallurgy could use a new type of machine for processing the various ore dusts in different combinations to make useful materials. I like how there are alloy recipes for turning some of the new ores back into vanilla iron. I'm thinking expand that concept to touch all of the new ores in some way so that if perchance I don't happen to have a use for a particular ore I can set up automation into my quarry output to get more of the materials I do have a use for by using the mod ores in the right way.

Also wonderful would be powered crushers and what not, with integration into existing power systems from other mods (Buildcraft, Industrialcraft, Universal Electricity).

 

[Shadowclaimer]

I like the new crusher recipes proposed on the github, per ShadowClaimer:

"Implementation of some new recipes for the Crusher to add additional functionality.
Cobblestone > Gravel
Smoothstone > Gravel
Gravel > Sand
Netherrack > Soul Sand
Glowstone > 4x Glowstone Dust
Sandstone > 4x Sand
Log > 2x Sawdust
Sawdust is smeltable into Charcoal, so it effectively doubles your Charcoal output with an additional step."

This is sweet. Since the 1.6 version of Thermal Expansion is not out yet, I've been missing the ability to make sand out of cobble rather than search for a desert or rip up beaches.

I still think Metallurgy could use a new type of machine for processing the various ore dusts in different combinations to make useful materials. I like how there are alloy recipes for turning some of the new ores back into vanilla iron. I'm thinking expand that concept to touch all of the new ores in some way so that if perchance I don't happen to have a use for a particular ore I can set up automation into my quarry output to get more of the materials I do have a use for by using the mod ores in the right way.

Also wonderful would be powered crushers and what not, with integration into existing power systems from other mods (Buildcraft, Industrialcraft, Universal Electricity).

Eventually I want to do electric versions of the machines, when/if I get around to Modern Metals they're definitely what the machine for that one will be.

 

[ArktisHerz557]

First off, I just started getting into this mod, and I stumbled across this thread in an attempt to see if it had extended plans for Tinker's Construct support or if it was just a simple 'you can melt it, but no tools for you."
But it seems as though you need answers to questions, rather than more questions. I like the mod, and a pat on the back for stepping up and making it open source. My first suggestion would be to set up an easily accessible FAQ somewhere. I can not emphasize this enough. The modders get some quick answers, and you get piece of mind from the endless bombardment of the same 12 questions. Everybody wins.
The next thing I would suggest is to add some form of multi-block. I know it sounds trivial. But I can't seem to find a 'core' mod that doesn't have at least one. As for the useage of the multiblock, all I can think of is simple power generation in the form of a Potato battery farm. You can use a whole bunch of potatoes, copper, and zinc (Easier to get early game than lava, just enough to get you started.) I would guess you don't want your own power generation, which is fine. Mayhap you add the option in a separate module for Buildcraft, industrial craft, or the new Thermal Expansion energy (which I admittedly know little to nothing about.)
Slag is another thing you might want to use as a metal sink. Throw some ingots in, they melt down, and you get a bunch (4? per ingot?) of plain, but extremely useful blast resistant blocks.
Anyways, I'm rambling. If you want me to continue, I have more ideas than I can count, but I don't want to make a huge wall of text if I'm just getting in the way.

 

[PowerfulMoss]

I have looked round these forums for a while but never posted until now however the possibilities of M4 are really exciting.

First of all it would be excellent if forge had a standard metal ore generation mod that other mods could use materials from as this would minimise conflict between mods and help bring some semblance of balance to thinga like steel etc.

Secondly, in terms of uses, I think TiC has got almost enough different types of materials and properties and although I think it would be fine to add some more options I really think that where this mod could shine would be in not just using metals for armour and weapons.
The properties of the different metals could be used for certain magical mods if they could embrace it. Some could be used for lighting explosives or decorations or a metallurgy specific magic system...

This could be along the lines (or identical to) Brandon Sanderson's 'Allomancy' (or the other magic systems) from his mistborn books or it could be a different concept entirely.
Although this would require a lot more work I think it would be a better option than making weapons, armour and low tech machines which other mods do well already.

For reference: mistborn.wikia.com/wiki/allomancy

Thanks in any case for a fun mod!

 

[WatcherInTheShadows]

My only addition to the conversation is please please please don't make the mod too easy.
Don't gift wrap everything.
Offer a challenge.

 

[Trunks9809]

I think it could be quite cool if metallurgy had a system similar to the Forestry bee\tree breeding. It IS a mod about combining metals to make new ones, after all.

Maybe each metal has traits - hardness, base damage, mining speed, mining level etc, and you could alloy 2 metals together. The first one you put in becomes the primary metal and determines the type (Unless you want to go down the 'mutation' route too, of course). The other traits could be determined using some 'breeding' system, possibly based on the complexity of the metals instead of the dominant\recessive style of Mendelian.

You'd still have all your ores so people who don't care\want to, can just fire them into a furnace or whatever and get their ingots. But people who want to put in the effort to make their metals better can alloy\combine\whatever to their hearts content. It also means you can have different metals without needing loads of new ores.

 

[Tristam Izumi]

My only addition to the conversation is please please please don't make the mod too easy.
Don't gift wrap everything.
Offer a challenge.

Define "easy. Define "challenge".

Hint: both are as subjective as "balance". It is literally impossible to objectively define those.

 

[WatcherInTheShadows]

Define "easy. Define "challenge".

Hint: both are as subjective as "balance". It is literally impossible to objectively define those.

eas·y
ˈēzē/
adjective
adjective: easy; comparative adjective: easier; superlative adjective: easiest

1. 1.​
   achieved without great effort; presenting few difficulties.

chal·lenge
ˈCHalənj/
verb
verb: challenge; 3rd person present: challenges; past tense: challenged; past participle: challenged; gerund or present participle: challenging



[1]test the abilities of.

"he needed something both to challenge his skills and to regain his crown as the king of the thriller"
synonyms: test, tax, strain, make demands on;