Mechanics discussion: all about the grind

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epidemia78

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I agree, as far as tool use goes. However I've gone the other way with keeping it useful- its a brilliant source of building stone.

Not really a fan of the TiCon building blocks, they are all basically vanilla textures.. I have considered changing the recipes for certain chisel blocks though. Building blocks are the most valuable commodity in my games, worth working for. Knowing that you used an expensive type of block to build something makes it seem more rewarding. A few minecraft versions ago before chisel existed I changed the textures for the metallurgy mod's metal bricks/blocks, made them look really cool so copper, iron, gold, etc were my primary building materials. Only did manual mining, every block of ore inched me closer to finishing my projects. Had lots of fun with that...

I dont think I will bother including Jabba in my packs anymore, I like the TE caches more because of their appearance and fact that they dont drop items on the ground but go right into your inventory and can be moved without needing a dolly. I think the max size of one is 600,000 items but Im not sure exactly. Dont know why you'd need more than that of one item. Oh and Jabba upgrading is super annoying.
 
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epidemia78

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I was thinking of the stone variants mainly. Ticon metal blocks all look very plain IMO except for the aluminum brass one which has rivets but that is rarely useful.
 

ShneekeyTheLost

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Does the EIO AE-Lite system work with the Storage Drawer Controller like AE does?

Me, I wouldn't remove JABBA in favor of Storage Drawers for a couple of reasons. First among these is B-Space Barrels. Being able to just teleport things from my tree farm to my input chest is awesome. Instead of having to run AE cable, or a Tesseract, I can just use a couple of barrels (two or three depending on oak or not.)
I will grant you B-Space is nice. But by the time you can do it... you have alternatives to moving things around.

Second among them is the shear massive storage potential of JABBA barrels. True, the Deep Storage Unit is flat out better, but at the same time that has the potential to be insanely expensive. Filled Tesseract Frame plus four Reinforced Strongboxes? (Depends on Config naturally.) Yeah, that's a lot more expensive than a JABBA barrel. But I can take the JABBA barrel with me when I go mining. I plonk them down at the entry to my mining tunnel and then when I comeback with a full inventory, I just double click and empty all the cobble that I've generated. Same for dirt and gravel and I can go straight back to mining without having to go all the way up the shaft. When I'm done, I just pick them up with dollies, and put them in any sort of bag I want, and I'm off back home.

Storage Drawers doesn't have that kind of capacity. What it can do is automatically compress all my cobble. (Anyone know how much a Compacting Drawer holds?) Yes, it can hold a lot but not nearly everything I generate. True, you could void it. Either into an ME condenser, or dev/null, but I feel that's removing some of the challenge.
Ummm... you DO realize that drawers hold 32 stacks a pop, without upgrades, right? That's only half of what a JABBA barrel can hold, however you don't require iterative storage upgrades, only the highest one is necessary. So upgrading is massively easier on drawers than on JABBA. So they could very easily handle the same sorts of chores.

Compacting drawers hold 16 stacks of the most concentrated item. So for cobble, that's 16 stacks of double-compressed cobblestone. Same with sand and gravel and dirt that can also be compacted.

Moreover, JABBA is cheaper early on than Storage Drawers. The SD equivalent of JABBA barrels requires gold. JABBA only needs wood.
The 5x storage upgrade for drawers is sticks and obsidian. Not too difficult. It puts it at just a bit more than the 2x barrel upgrade.

All that said, Storage Drawers is an epic mod, but it is not the end all storage solution. Neither is AE until you have infinite power. All three mods have a place, and a purpose. AE stores large numbers of single items. Storage Drawers stores large numbers of multiple stackable items. JABBA portably stores immense quantities of one item.
Storage Drawers can be moved around with the dollys from Inventory Tools, which don't cause slowness debuff. So... actually, just as portable, with virtually the same quantity capacity.
 

thephoenixlodge

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I will grant you B-Space is nice. But by the time you can do it... you have alternatives to moving things around.

Ummm... you DO realize that drawers hold 32 stacks a pop, without upgrades, right? That's only half of what a JABBA barrel can hold, however you don't require iterative storage upgrades, only the highest one is necessary. So upgrading is massively easier on drawers than on JABBA. So they could very easily handle the same sorts of chores.

Compacting drawers hold 16 stacks of the most concentrated item. So for cobble, that's 16 stacks of double-compressed cobblestone. Same with sand and gravel and dirt that can also be compacted.

The 5x storage upgrade for drawers is sticks and obsidian. Not too difficult. It puts it at just a bit more than the 2x barrel upgrade.


Storage Drawers can be moved around with the dollys from Inventory Tools, which don't cause slowness debuff. So... actually, just as portable, with virtually the same quantity capacity.
Storage Drawers also has a packing tape item, which, when added to a drawer causes it to maintain its contents when broken IIRC - specifically for natively moving the drawers around.
 

desht

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Storage Drawers doesn't have that kind of capacity. What it can do is automatically compress all my cobble. (Anyone know how much a Compacting Drawer holds?) Yes, it can hold a lot but not nearly everything I generate. True, you could void it. Either into an ME condenser, or dev/null, but I feel that's removing some of the challenge.

According to the docs, an emerald-upgraded JABBA barrel can store 8,128 stacks. That needs a ton of structural and storage upgrades.

A compacting storage drawer with 5 emerald upgrades can store 16 * 65 * 81 = 84,240 stacks of cobblestone. (16 stacks base * (5 * 13) for the emerald upgrades * 81 for double-compressed cobble). That will take 20 emeralds and a bit of wood.

So I'll dispute your claim that JABBA can store more than SD :)

(Admittedly that only applies for cobblestone - a regular 1x1 drawer stores only 2080 stacks of non-compactable items, and a compacting drawer stores 9,360 stacks of single-compactable items, with 5 emerald upgrades).

[Edited to correct storage capacity - compacting drawers hold 16 stacks, not 32]

Moreover, JABBA is cheaper early on than Storage Drawers. The SD equivalent of JABBA barrels requires gold. JABBA only needs wood.

Er, a basic storage drawer only needs wood too. A 1x1 drawer needs 14 planks, 1x2 needs 23 planks for two, 2x2 needs 37 planks for four.

JABBA does have B-space upgrades which alone make it worth keeping around (the hopper upgrades are also very nice, mind). And un-upgraded barrels have double the capacity of an un-upgraded drawer, so JABBA's often more suitable for quick one-off storage solutions in the field. But I'll use SD for my storage walls any day :)
 

desht

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Storage Drawers also has a packing tape item, which, when added to a drawer causes it to maintain its contents when broken IIRC - specifically for natively moving the drawers around.
Also, Mekanism cardboard boxes work with SD (actually, cardboard boxes work with just about any tile entity). Although in Regrowth, I don't think it's possible to get a cardboard box before you have a carpenter...
 

KingTriaxx

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The version I'm looking at requires gold nuggets for the 1x1 drawer. (1.7.10-1.7.5)

There might be other ways of moving items around than B-space, but I can hopper straight out of one, and a lot of other options require piping. Or are more expensive like the Tesseract.

I was unaware that SD storage upgrades stacked. Personally I think that the slowness debuff is an acceptable penalty for that much storage, but eh.

Epidemia: I mean the ones made from one Iron Ingot and the Tinker's Chisel in a crafting grid. Similar patterns to vanilla bricks and sandstone, but much cheaper than building from Iron Blocks. (Though if you're making fake piping, Tinker's Steel blocks do look pretty awesome. I used them as the painted block for EnderIO facades running pipe from a water tower.)
 

RavynousHunter

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Ooh, I didn't know the SD upgrades stacked! Neat! Also, I tend to use JABBA early on for the common things like cobble and coal to save on chest space, but I think I'll be moving to SD for that, now, since I can upgrade to the drawer controller which makes things massively easier, especially once I hit AE level, since I can just slap a single storage bus on to the SD controller and have access to all those tasty, common items and only ever use one channel.
 

thephoenixlodge

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The version I'm looking at requires gold nuggets for the 1x1 drawer. (1.7.10-1.7.5)

There might be other ways of moving items around than B-space, but I can hopper straight out of one, and a lot of other options require piping. Or are more expensive like the Tesseract.

I was unaware that SD storage upgrades stacked. Personally I think that the slowness debuff is an acceptable penalty for that much storage, but eh.

Epidemia: I mean the ones made from one Iron Ingot and the Tinker's Chisel in a crafting grid. Similar patterns to vanilla bricks and sandstone, but much cheaper than building from Iron Blocks. (Though if you're making fake piping, Tinker's Steel blocks do look pretty awesome. I used them as the painted block for EnderIO facades running pipe from a water tower.)
The gold nuggets are for upgrading the drawers into a Refined Relocation sorting variant.
 

KingTriaxx

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Recipe changed then. Because it had been 1 chest, and 4 nuggets in the corners. Now it's just chest and 6 wood. SD's are cheaper now.
 

ShneekeyTheLost

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Going back onto the topic of 'grinding', we've actually got a really nice example of 'grinding' done properly: The Storage Drawer Wall.

You'll probably start with cobble/dirt/gravel and possibly things like andesite/granite/marble if you have Chisel2 installed. Just a few drawers on a wall, conveniently located. You can make the packing tape out of commonly obtainable materials if you need to move them.

Then you start getting to the point where you are starting to farm certain materials, producing copious quantities of them. This is also probably the point where you are going to want to lay out your storage room a bit less... organically. However, by this time, you've probably gotten a dolly or cardboard box or just have your good ol' packing tape available to move them around.

Fortunately, empty drawers stack, so you don't have to spend a half hour clicking and placing, you can make a whole stack at a time if you'd like.

Right now is also probably when you're going to want to pick up your Controller, and maybe a Slave or two, depending on how much automation you are going to be using and how conveniently placed you can put your controller.

At this point, you've got a primitive AE drive that takes up a room and gives you that aesthetic sense of accomplishment. You can walk down the halls of your storage drawers filled with all your material wealth, and breathe a sigh of contentment. The only thing you can't do is go swimming in it. Ahh well, such is life.

In short order, you're going to probably want some upgrades, typically storage upgrades and maybe a void upgrade on things that are starting to backlog and shut down other systems.

Ultimately, you will be building your AE2 system. However, instead of having to dump the entire contents of your entire storage room onto ME Disks, you just run a single storage bus to a Controller or Slave. Done. All the hard work you've put into it? Just paid off dividends again. You get to feel good about having put in the work on organizing your stuff all over again, because now it's all sorted and much easier to access. You don't have to tear it down, you don't have to move anything around, you just plug n play.

It is a matter of building upon the work you have done, rather than making it obsolete. Making your earlier tasks the foundation upon which your future tasks will rest, secure in the knowledge that your hard work and effort will not be wasted.

And as the tedium increases, this feeling will also increase. As your time investment increases, the disinclination to see that work go to waste increases exponentially. So if, for example, you decide to Minetweaks your recipes to something a bit more resource-intensive to compensate for how easy it is to automate, this feeling of accomplishment and satisfaction that all the work you've done just paid off again for you, is even bigger. And not only that, but you've got something aesthetically pleasing to look at, which is sizable in nature. No one would have cared if the pyramids were the size of a dog-house, after all. But you've got a truly impressive piece of engineering that you can walk through, the nostalgia hitting you as you see a resource and recall the original difficulties you had in getting your first few pieces, creeping around in dark caves terrified of that hissing noise that would be your doom, your very own wall of accomplishment. Then you hook up your storage bus, and it is all that... version 2.0.

Cue the music.

Now then, why is this all the feels? Three basic concepts you have done to facilitate this:

1) Early game utility. Storage drawers, being entirely wooden, is something you can use in the early game, when it is most challenging, when you are developing the sense of wonder and enjoyment and exploration. The drawers are right there alongside you, like your very own faithful 'droid. Only without the beeping.

2) Player Engagement. This isn't a one-block 'store all the things' mod. This mod encourages you to create expansive structures to house your stuff in. It encourages the player to do something both functional and aesthetically pleasing. With hooks for Bibliocraft, and various other mods that give even more types of materials to build with, you can make something you can be proud of. You can create a storage room that you are proud to take screenshots of and share with your friends. Sure, it'll take a bit to make something that looks impressive, but hey... isn't that half of the game's name? And it is work that will never be wasted. Every time you go into your storage room, you get that rush of accomplishment all over again. This, too, was built by my hands. May the gods damn me if they must, but they cannot take from me this wonder of the world that I have created. It engages the player's sense of creativity and lets him think of it less as something to suffer through and more the tools to make something awesome with.

3) Lack of obsolescence. You can permit yourself to go wild with Storage Drawers because they will never be obsolete. So even if AE2 is gated behind the Ender Dragon Egg or something, you will never have to worry about all the effort you are putting into it now to be wasted later. This isn't an interim ad-hoc makeshift storage system to hold you over until you get AE, this is something that plugs right in that you have no need to disassemble once you get there. So all that time you spent previously? Still is every bit as viable now. But in addition to it, you also get more immediate access to it, sorted, and can craft with it much more conveniently. Which is going to be important for creating your next wonder of the world. Because if you're going to make a Pyramid to go with your Library of Alexandria you just created... it's gonna require a LOT of stuff. Let's do this.

THIS is why I like Storage Drawers so much. You engage your player. It's not just 'craft, craft, craft, yawn, drink caffeine, craft craft...'. It's the ability to see these drawers and think 'how am I going to build an impressive storage room that looks awesome'. It teases the creativity which brought you into this world made up of blocks to begin with, secure in the knowledge that even if you get AE later on, it'll still be every bit as functional, and beautiful, as the day you made it. A wonder of the world that still continues to be useful to this very day.
 

Type1Ninja

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I like this post. It was good and I don't think it said anything anyone will disagree with. I even listened to the music (I was pleasantly surprised that it wasn't a rickroll XD). :D

I had just one problem with it.

May the gods damn me if they must, but they cannot take from me this wonder of the world that I have created

SACRILEGE! RNGesus giveth, RNGesus taketh away. Retribution shall come to thee in the form of a single, well-placed creeper spawn. :p
 
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KingTriaxx

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So, an amusingly interesting thing about the Drawer controller. It means that those drawers can be a 3D object. IE, front and back are equally valid sides as top/bottom/left/right. Meaning with the resources, you could make a line of Controller Slaves, and go from a storage wall into a storage cube. Which isn't helpful, unless you have AE.
 

ratchet freak

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One of the things defining the grind is what the gate you are grinding towards is and how useful the items beyond each gate is. Mods with a lot of gates or a few difficult gates that remain there if you want to build another machine without good rewards at each gate will feel grindy.

Most mods have some form of power gen gate, where higher tier machines require more and stable power. This often gets obsoleted through the power creep (a small Bigreactor can power just about anything).

The other most common gate is material-based, you need n amount of material X for the next thing in the line. This can get annoying if you need more of that thing but there is good way to get material X once you are past the gate.

Vanilla forestry bees is gated by luck with the mutations you get and time to let the bees produce what you need. The other bee related mods change that gate to power and materials.

AE is entry gated by world gen drops (material based), the 4 inscriber presses (which you only need & of each of and you can copy them) and finding some naturally charged quartz (which you can make more of). After that it's gated by your own skill in managing channels and materials.

Computercraft is gated by redstone/gold and your skill in programming/skill in finding and using other people's programs.

Botania is gated by mana production (power gen but without alternative), this is combined with the difficulty of keeping a good production setup through the nerfs as versions advance.
 

RedBoss

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So, an amusingly interesting thing about the Drawer controller. It means that those drawers can be a 3D object. IE, front and back are equally valid sides as top/bottom/left/right. Meaning with the resources, you could make a line of Controller Slaves, and go from a storage wall into a storage cube. Which isn't helpful, unless you have AE.
Or the inventory panel from Ender IO. Which also further delays the need to rush into AE. One stop inventory access and crafting from said consolidated inventory is what usually pushes one into AE.

It also gives you something to do with your farms and zombie flesh.
 

epidemia78

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Sounds interesting, I might need to finally update EnderIO. Although I dont really like EIO conduits.
 

epidemia78

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No I love AE2. It really isnt a one block solution mod especially if you want to do autocrafting. The channel system also offers a challenge when it comes to designing something organized and visually appealing. Unlike the first one where you could just wire everything up however you pleased, the sequel requires some thought or it will be a huge ugly mess.