Is Rotarycraft stupidly difficult or am I the stupid one?

[dothrom]

*passes out the tinfoil hats*

 

[Reika]

(And you need to understand that I am not making an anti-tiering argument here, but rather an anti-interference argument. I was a frontrunner for suggesting you tier your machines in the first place you may recall)

As you saw earlier, I got the opposite meaning.

The incongruity is the lack of interest of adding "wormholes" to your mods based on lack of "reality". This is such a minor point for me it hardly bears discussing, but I'd much rather hear you say "lack of interest" so that it wasn't even a point of discussion anymore. Wormholes are already an existing and important part of the game, so reality has nothing to do with them. If you told me it cost precisely 2^42W to create a stable wormhole which persists for 3 hours and is 1x1 block wide, I'd nod sagely and say it makes a lot of sense in Minecraftia. And if you told me that wormholes are effing boring to code, I'd ask you when the next version of ChromaticCraft is coming out for lack of anything better to discuss.

It is not that I dislike the idea, simply that I feel it cannot be included in RC. Hence why ChromatiCraft has the World Rift, which can carry shaft power.

Stressing about oredict is interfering with other modders. This is where the uncomfortable sense of indulgence comes in. I'm hoping I can convince you to just consider this without getting offended at words with negative connotation:

If I code my tungsten to be found by breaking oak trees, you simply shouldn't care, other than to wonder why idiots like me waste time joining your mod with mine in a pack in the first place. This has no effect on you or the intricate balance of your mod.

Getting worked up about stupid people leaping through progression via cross-mod incompatibilities strikes a horrible note with me, sort of like people who say their lives are ruined because they hate people of X race/shoesize/IQ, and the wrong person moved in next door. It has nothing to do with your life. It bothers you because you let it. Mind your own life and move on.

And that goes right back to the people who shout first and think later. Even if I do not care what they say, they are a severe annoyance.

 

[Pyure]

{stuff}

Understood.

It is not that I dislike the idea, simply that I feel it cannot be included in RC. Hence why ChromatiCraft has the World Rift, which can carry shaft power.

Doubly-true if you've already incorporated it into ChromatiCraft (which I know absolutely nothing about, since I don't play magic mods)

I'll add that the wormhole issue is addressed since complainers have the option of adding Chrom. to their worlds if they want to.

Re. opposite impression of my intent: if you read the previous pages, you'll see that I uncharacteristically slagged the poor poster on RoC and TE points which were presented with near-offensive absurdity.

 

[Azzanine]

Look guys, maybe he wasn't right, but all this trashtalk looks really ugly. Is it a "Praise Reika" party or something like that?
It looks like every guy who says that RC is too complex is getting flamed to death with all that "LOL YOU TOO STOOPID" crap. Yes, suggesting to switch to RF is kinda stupid idea, but if the mod often called "overcomplicated", maybe there are reasons for that.
I guess, one of the issues I have with it is "false realism" when some stuff is claimed realistic, while it's not. Reika likes to justify something with realism, while there are lots of stuff that's clearly not realistic. Example: ethanol crystals. I guess you can crystallize ethanol somehow (not even sure), but I doubt that it's an easy thing and it's definitely not the way you get ethanol naturally.
There are also stuff that's not designed good well enough. Example: steel purifier. AFAIR, RotaryCraft steel is the easiest to make and it's used the most, so why would you ever use the purifier adding another step in steel production?
Other example: magnetostatic nerf. Let's put it straight - some people want to use complicated RC power system, some find it tedious and not really interested in. Forcing the latter to use more of RC won't make them happy. Basically I see it as "U PLAY THE MOD NOT THE WAY I WANT U TO!?!!"
The power network itself was discussed quite a lot, so I won't address it. Though, it's funny how often you see magnetostatic engines in Reikas video tour (if I'm not mistaking it with some other vid).

Yeah, RotaryCraft's energy system is stupidly complicated, but only in comparison to it's contemporaries.

Suggesting a conversion to RF is not so much stupid as it is audacious.

Also I think Reika's penchant for realism only applies to the energy behavior and it relies heavily on the logic of the Minecraft world. I also don't think this policy for realism is a hard unbreakable rule.

Regarding the power system thing, if you don't want to deal with rad/s and nm and the machines requirements then you don't want to deal with the mod at all. It's like wanting to play TC but hating the node/ essentia/ vis mechanic if you don't like that stuff then you kind of hate 2/3 of what makes TC what it is, don't you.
It's not a case of "play the mod how I want you to" but more of the "if you want to play the mod, play the mod", also I scoff at those who liken RoC (RC is RailCraft FYI) to GregTech as RoC has not yet attempted to usurp the primary vanilla game and keeps mostly to it's self. If you find RoC too difficult you can very very easily avoid it even in a modpack scenario it's not forced on you in any way. But if you do use RoC then you use RoC, it's designed somewhat insularly and on purpose.
Reika doesn't want the mod to turn in to "that mod with the 5x ore "doubling"" "What Mekanism?" "No the other one".

Then again this thread is starting to look like a Reika praising love in... Maybe I should start talking about my disdain for GeoStrata? No, I promised myself that I wouldn't stoop to that again.

 

[PonyKuu]

You are aware that the recipe of 95% of the RC machines are roughly equally costly for their point in the techtree, yes? That most of the cost of running a machine comes not from the crafting recipe, but from attaining one or more gating resources and generating the appropriate power profile?
How about how many of the machines are incredibly powerful, from (up to) 13x ore duplication with bonuses or 700 blocks/s infinite mining (with silk touch capability) or weapons that can wipe out entire chunks worth of machinery and/or terrain, to much, much more?
If you answered yes to all of the above (if not, I would argue you have no business complaining about the balance of a mod you do not well understand), then how is it at all hard to see why the tiering is so important, and why something like the pre-v16 unlimited magnetostatics (up to 137MW at any torque and speed!) or ore-dict tungsten is a problem?

I can complain about whatever I want, thank you very much. If I don't agree with your design choices, that doesn't mean I "don't understand the balance". They might be good for someone who plays RoC only and calls people who don't do so stupid, but not for everyone. I just think it's a bad design oredict or not. I can't remember any mods using tungsten anyways. Except for RedPower (not using, just adding) and GregTech (nuff said). Another example of bad design was a performance engine exploding after placed in the Nether (was not powered and also killed the player which is bullshit). Also, ore multiplication is overrated and 700 blocks/s might be outclassed by MFR mining laser (not quite sure, though, but it's possible).
Tiering in many mods is important if you only use that mod and, but when you add a bunch of compatible mods in the mix, things are getting more complicated. A shock! I can run Buildcraft machines using only RF power network! Same for IC2, though conversion is a bit more difficult(except for PCs). If every single mod in the Monster would require to go through all the tiers in it, that'd be unplayable.

Yeah, RotaryCraft's energy system is stupidly complicated, but only in comparison to it's contemporaries.

Suggesting a conversion to RF is not so much stupid as it is audacious.

Also I think Reika's penchant for realism only applies to the energy behavior and it relies heavily on the logic of the Minecraft world. I also don't think this policy for realism is a hard unbreakable rule.

Regarding the power system thing, if you don't want to deal with rad/s and nm and the machines requirements then you don't want to deal with the mod at all. It's like wanting to play TC but hating the node/ essentia/ vis mechanic if you don't like that stuff then you kind of hate 2/3 of what makes TC what it is, don't you.

I have no issue whatsoever with angular velocity and torque. And I didn't suggest to change the power to RF. And also energy behavior is not THAT realistic in RoC honestly.

It's not a case of "play the mod how I want you to" but more of the "if you want to play the mod, play the mod", also I scoff at those who liken RoC (RC is RailCraft FYI) to GregTech as RoC has not yet attempted to usurp the primary vanilla game and keeps mostly to it's self. If you find RoC too difficult you can very very easily avoid it even in a modpack scenario it's not forced on you in any way. But if you do use RoC then you use RoC, it's designed somewhat insularly and on purpose.
Reika doesn't want the mod to turn in to "that mod with the 5x ore "doubling"" "What Mekanism?" "No the other one".

As for "if you want to play the mod, play the mod", this is the issue, I think. If you want people to play your mod, don't do it with restrictions, but with interesting content. If you have nothing interesting to suggest except for 5x ore, well... That's bad. It's not exactly the RoC's case actually, but if people treat it that way, you won't solve the issue by tiering the magnetostatic engines. I asked people somewhere in these threads - what do they use jet engines for.

 

[Padfoote]

-snip-

This pretty much boils down to not liking how Reika designs his mod, yes?

 

[Reika]

I can complain about whatever I want, thank you very much. If I don't agree with your design choices, that doesn't mean I "don't understand the balance". They might be good for someone who plays RoC only and calls people who don't do so stupid, but not for everyone. I just think it's a bad design oredict or not. I can't remember any mods using tungsten anyways. Except for RedPower (not using, just adding) and GregTech (nuff said). Another example of bad design was a performance engine exploding after placed in the Nether (was not powered and also killed the player which is bullshit). Also, ore multiplication is overrated and 700 blocks/s might be outclassed by MFR mining laser (not quite sure, though, but it's possible).
Tiering in many mods is important if you only use that mod and, but when you add a bunch of compatible mods in the mix, things are getting more complicated. A shock! I can run Buildcraft machines using only RF power network! Same for IC2, though conversion is a bit more difficult(except for PCs). If every single mod in the Monster would require to go through all the tiers in it, that'd be unplayable.

I have no issue whatsoever with angular velocity and torque. And I didn't suggest to change the power to RF. And also energy behavior is not THAT realistic in RoC honestly.

As for "if you want to play the mod, play the mod", this is the issue, I think. If you want people to play your mod, don't do it with restrictions, but with interesting content. If you have nothing interesting to suggest except for 5x ore, well... That's bad. It's not exactly the RoC's case actually, but if people treat it that way, you won't solve the issue by tiering the magnetostatic engines. I asked people somewhere in these threads - what do they use jet engines for.

One, are you not trying to argue for some sort of change? After all, what would be the purpose of complaining aside from such an intent? Whining for the sake of it?
Two,

I can complain about whatever I want, thank you very much

You can, but if you do not have the knowledge to back up your arguments, I can just as easily - and will - write off everything you say as unfounded and not worth considering.

 

[Azzanine]

I have no issue whatsoever with angular velocity and torque. And I didn't suggest to change the power to RF. And also energy behavior is not THAT realistic in RoC honestly.

As for "if you want to play the mod, play the mod", this is the issue, I think. If you want people to play your mod, don't do it with restrictions, but with interesting content. If you have nothing interesting to suggest except for 5x ore, well... That's bad. It's not exactly the RoC's case actually, but if people treat it that way, you won't solve the issue by tiering the magnetostatic engines. I asked people somewhere in these threads - what do they use jet engines for.

I know you didn't suggest it, I'm just saying asking Reika to convert to RF isn't dumb, just rude and arrogant (which is worse then dumb IMO). It would be like asking Azanor to have his machines ran off RF and to do away with that essentia/ vis stuff and that the golems should be robots.

Thing is people using the old magneos' where not actually playing RoC they where avoiding a good part of what RotaryCraft is about, managing rotational energy IS RoC the fancy machines are just rewards for doing things right.
Then again you have slight point, tiering the magneos' won't get more people to use RoC it will likely get people to drop it completely. That being said Reika has taken the less popular but more dignified rout by keeping his mod within his vision. He shouldn't have to compromise his design philosophy just because some one decided it should be in a FTB pack.

Also by jet engine do you mean Gas Turbine? If so Gas turbines can be used to run an extractor solo, it doesn't even need gearing even though doing so will get you more speed if you use a 2:1 ratio set to speed. You will still meet the max torque requirement but also double the speed. As it appears that more torque doesn't seem to affect the operation time doubling the speed is what you want.
See that's the only flaw with RoC; it takes thinking/ investigation, which to me is a facet but if you want to be cynically honest it's considered a flaw these days.

 

[dalekslayer96]

It is not that I dislike the idea, simply that I feel it cannot be included in RC. Hence why ChromatiCraft has the World Rift, which can carry shaft power.

Speaking of Chromaticraft, any ETA?

 

[trajing]

Speaking of Chromaticraft, any ETA?

Here ya go.

 

[dothrom]

As for "if you want to play the mod, play the mod", this is the issue, I think. If you want people to play your mod, don't do it with restrictions, but with interesting content. If you have nothing interesting to suggest except for 5x ore, well... That's bad. It's not exactly the RoC's case actually, but if people treat it that way, you won't solve the issue by tiering the magnetostatic engines. I asked people somewhere in these threads - what do they use jet engines for.

Huh. So do you also want to be able to make a redstone energy cell without having to make hardened glass? How about a resonant strongboxes without having to have the headache of getting to and making endurium ingots. And how about that quantum armor. Having to go through the IC2 tech tree so you can scan and replicate iridium is probably too much work too then? Why don't mod makers just make it so you can gather some metal and a couple of shiny rocks and be able to make anything in any mod?

Almost every mod out there that is widely used and respected has tiered content. Why? Because you need to work towards something. The vast majority that really complain loudly are usually the ones who have memorized the way to power through mod progression using inter mod exploiting. Would see them hop on the server I was on... last fall? They'd hop in, power though the minimum they had to to get "god mode" power and tons of resources. Less than a week later, they're complaining in chat that they're bored and there isn't enough to do. "It's too easy." Is commonly one of the last things they say before dissapearing. Or... they start looking up dupe bugs I and the other admins hadn't found yet, and ways around grief prevention.

 

[DriftinFool]

I can complain about whatever I want, thank you very much. If I don't agree with your design choices, that doesn't mean I "don't understand the balance". They might be good for someone who plays RoC only and calls people who don't do so stupid, but not for everyone. I just think it's a bad design oredict or not. I can't remember any mods using tungsten anyways. Except for RedPower (not using, just adding) and GregTech (nuff said). Another example of bad design was a performance engine exploding after placed in the Nether (was not powered and also killed the player which is bullshit). Also, ore multiplication is overrated and 700 blocks/s might be outclassed by MFR mining laser (not quite sure, though, but it's possible).
Tiering in many mods is important if you only use that mod and, but when you add a bunch of compatible mods in the mix, things are getting more complicated. A shock! I can run Buildcraft machines using only RF power network! Same for IC2, though conversion is a bit more difficult(except for PCs). If every single mod in the Monster would require to go through all the tiers in it, that'd be unplayable.

I have no issue whatsoever with angular velocity and torque. And I didn't suggest to change the power to RF. And also energy behavior is not THAT realistic in RoC honestly.

As for "if you want to play the mod, play the mod", this is the issue, I think. If you want people to play your mod, don't do it with restrictions, but with interesting content. If you have nothing interesting to suggest except for 5x ore, well... That's bad. It's not exactly the RoC's case actually, but if people treat it that way, you won't solve the issue by tiering the magnetostatic engines. I asked people somewhere in these threads - what do they use jet engines for.

I have to disagree. You don't have the right to complain about a mod not being what you think it should be. It is not your mod. You do not pay Reika to make it. You do not have to use it. I hate Thaumcraft. I don't go cry to Azanor, I uninstall it and let the people who like it play it as the mod author meant. I am in no position to demand changes. Why would I expect a mod, that I don't like, to change into something I like when it goes against the concept of the mod?I choose to use RoC over other mods because of the difficulty. Having to have a calculator handy when setting things up is not a negative thing to me. There are alot of people who feel the same way.
The only thing you have a right to complain about is a bug. As far as that goes, I would have to say Reika is one of the most involved with the community of all the mod makers I see. He is on multiple forums, always answers questions, implements player suggestions that actually fit the vision of his mod, and constantly updates to handle balance and bugs. I wish even 10% of the mod makers out there were as in touch with us, the players, as he is.

TLDR No one makes you play any mod, even if it is included in a modpack. Don't like it, don't use it. Not every mod is for every player.

 

[dothrom]

I have to disagree. You don't have the right to complain about a mod not being what you think it should be. It is not your mod. You do not pay Reika to make it. You do not have to use it. I hate Thaumcraft. I don't go cry to Azanor, I uninstall it and let the people who like it play it as the mod author meant. I am in no position to demand changes. Why would I expect a mod, that I don't like, to change into something I like when it goes against the concept of the mod?
The only thing you have a right to complain about is a bug. As far as that goes, I would have to say Reika is one of the most involved with the community of all the mod makers I see. He is on multiple forums, always answers questions, implements player suggestions that actually fit the vision of his mod, and constantly updates to handle balance and bugs. I wish even 10% of the mod makers out there were as in touch with us, the players, as he is.

TLDR No one makes you play any mod, even if it is included in a modpack. Don't like it, don't use it.

Eh. Everyone has the right to complain about whatever they want (demand? not so much). However, everyone else has the reason to verbally disagree with that person (or people as the case may be).

 

[DriftinFool]

Eh. Everyone has the right to complain about whatever they want (demand? not so much). However, everyone else has the reason to verbally disagree with that person (or people as the case may be).

I said you don't have the right to complain about a mod not being what you think it should be. That is not the same as not having the right to complain.

 

[Azzanine]

I have to disagree. You don't have the right to complain about a mod not being what you think it should be. It is not your mod. You do not pay Reika to make it. You do not have to use it. I hate Thaumcraft. I don't go cry to Azanor, I uninstall it and let the people who like it play it as the mod author meant. I am in no position to demand changes. Why would I expect a mod, that I don't like, to change into something I like when it goes against the concept of the mod?
The only thing you have a right to complain about is a bug. As far as that goes, I would have to say Reika is one of the most involved with the community of all the mod makers I see. He is on multiple forums, always answers questions, implements player suggestions that actually fit the vision of his mod, and constantly updates to handle balance and bugs. I wish even 10% of the mod makers out there were as in touch with us, the players, as he is.

TLDR No one makes you play any mod, even if it is included in a modpack. Don't like it, don't use it.

While it applies in this instance this advice isn't always so easy to follow, some mods are fundamentally intrusive, world gen mods for instance can't be avoided also in multi-player you don't have a real choice of the mods you want.
RoC can however be very easily ignored in many aspects and scenarios.

 

[dothrom]

Even world gen can be mostly ignored. I mean, if you really don't want to mess with or store what you get, throw it away. Trash can, void pipe, etc.!

Edit: Further more, if you're not on a server with other people. Just disable the the mod before you create the world and you won't even have the world gen.

 

[dothrom]

I said you don't have the right to complain about a mod not being what you think it should be. That is not the same as not having the right to complain.

Yes, yes it is the same. Worded differently (with the same meaning) "You have the right to complain, but not about this thing."
Which is false. I believe you're confusing the word and meaning of 'right' with things like 'standing' or merit. One has the right to complain about whatever he/she/it wants to. You may end up looking kinda like an ass. But hey, that's your right too. Weather that complaint has any merit or not is the discussion.

 

[DriftinFool]

Yes, yes it is the same. Worded differently (with the same meaning) "You have the right to complain, but not about this thing."
Which is false. I believe you're confusing the word and meaning of 'right' with things like 'standing' or merit. One has the right to complain about whatever he/she/it wants to. You may end up looking kinda like an ass. But hey, that's your right too. Weather that complaint has any merit or not is the discussion.

By your logic, I have the right to do anything I want. I have the right to steal or kill? As a person, you only have one right which no one can take away. Dying.
Please don't try to argue semantics or the interpretation of the English language. This is a RoC thread. Stop derailing it.

 

[dalekslayer96]

Here ya go.

Sniff.

 

[dothrom]

By your logic, I have the right to do anything I want. I have the right to steal or kill? As a person, you only have one right which no one can take away. Dying.
Please don't try to argue semantics or the interpretation of the English language. This is a RoC thread. Stop derailing it.

Wait. What? How you even start to go in that direction... How one's right to say (in this case complain about) something equates to theft and murder is... more than extreme.

At any rate. I wasn't derailing the thread. While I rather clearly disagree with Pony's argument. I was supporting that she has the right to say it.

You can, but if you do not have the knowledge to back up your arguments, I can just as easily - and will - write off everything you say as unfounded and not worth considering.

Sums it up well. Perhaps I said it poorly.