This is exactly why I never liked any form of power converters. It always boils down to figuring out one method that's the most efficient or simplest to build, generating that power, and converting to everything else. Vast parts of many mods are made completely obsolete. In my opinion, any conversion should always incur huge losses or be otherwise unfavorable. Take the Electrical Engine from Forestry for example: it is fine for a "I need to run this one liquid transposer in my IC room" scenario, but it's too slow to power complex BC machinery. I fear that the magma crucible is allowing for the opposite: run a boiler or biofuel engines, convert to lava, convert to IC power, skip any and all independent EU generation.
Is energy from lava appropriate?
- Thread starter raiju
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This is exactly why I never liked any form of power converters. It always boils down to figuring out one method that's the most efficient or simplest to build, generating that power, and converting to everything else. Vast parts of many mods are made completely obsolete. In my opinion, any conversion should always incur huge losses or be otherwise unfavorable. Take the Electrical Engine from Forestry for example: it is fine for a "I need to run this one liquid transposer in my IC room" scenario, but it's too slow to power complex BC machinery. I fear that the magma crucible is allowing for the opposite: run a boiler or biofuel engines, convert to lava, convert to IC power, skip any and all independent EU generation.
The RP Bluetristy engine is vary much the same which I like. It can pump out a good number of MJs but it sucks power like no ones business. So it has a nice limited use in places while not being completely OP.
hey King Lemming, while you're here, I'm curious about what you think of ore doubling mechanics in FtB. I love your Induction Smelter and think that the Rich Slag mechanic is fun, but it also hands down beats the Pulverizer and the Macerator when it comes to multiplication. I'm not sure if this is a "problem" that needs to be solved, but it reminds me a bit of how advanced solars can effectively shut out other competing options because they have flat superiority.
*sigh*
You do realize that this will mean that people just go back to pumping lava from the nether directly in that case?
The Smelter is getting tweaked a bit. The core of the issue there is that Ingot -> Dust is a thing, otherwise there would be an actual choice involved, as you'd actually have to alternate between Smelter/Pulverizer and not simply repulverize. Removing the recipe wouldn't work, as IC2 would still support it, hence the upcoming tweaks.
People are welcome to set the config values in their own files, but the defaults need to reflect my intent. There is a huge difference between "Thermal Expansion ruins <insert whatever> dynamic," and "Thermal Expansion gives us the choice to alter our own worlds because it's a sandbox and we have that freedom."
Unfortunately when you weigh the options and one of them is that one mod (GT) effectively changes the balance consideration and prevents any BC generation from being built ever period (which the Thermal Generators + Electrical Engines do), it's a pretty clear-cut choice.
Thank you for the response. I hadn't considered how removing the ingot-to-dust pathway might restore an element of choice to the production line. That's an interesting idea, one that I think I'll try myself. I already balance FtB to taste by simple acts of self-policing, so I'll add this to my list of prohibitions.
I do want to say a couple things on what King Lemming said. Especially about not building using BC energy. Before his mod, BC power was almost never used. It was always IC2 power systems, and you threw in a forestry electrical engine where you needed to run some buildcraft/forestry machine. That was it. Most power systems and machine systems were built around ore processing. Doubling your ore output meant using a macerator, which meant IC2 power system.
Since his mod, you can now do the same thing (and slightly better) with buildcraft energy. He has pretty much saved buildcraft from being useless or a niche mod used for item transport/automation.
His original purpose of the whole netherrack -> lava conversion was to simply stop mass pumping of the nether. That was his single goal. The magma crucible is the machine to do it. It works perfectly fine for that. I don't see any problems with his conversion or resource usage in that regard.
Most of the "exploits" revolve around the transportation system, not necessarily the energy distribution system. The liquid transposer is what makes many of the "exploits" so viable. A way to push the various systems to later game stages is simply to not always give back a container if it was used for lava. Even a 90% return rate would dramatically nerf the use of cans and cells for lava, and would require more infrastructure setup before options become unlimited again as mentioned in several previous posts.
Since his mod, you can now do the same thing (and slightly better) with buildcraft energy. He has pretty much saved buildcraft from being useless or a niche mod used for item transport/automation.
His original purpose of the whole netherrack -> lava conversion was to simply stop mass pumping of the nether. That was his single goal. The magma crucible is the machine to do it. It works perfectly fine for that. I don't see any problems with his conversion or resource usage in that regard.
Most of the "exploits" revolve around the transportation system, not necessarily the energy distribution system. The liquid transposer is what makes many of the "exploits" so viable. A way to push the various systems to later game stages is simply to not always give back a container if it was used for lava. Even a 90% return rate would dramatically nerf the use of cans and cells for lava, and would require more infrastructure setup before options become unlimited again as mentioned in several previous posts.
I'd have to disagree in terms of the current thermal generator + electric engine preventing any BC power generation. Even at the best conversion (5 eu for 2 mj) it's only 12,000 MJ compared to magmatic engines being 18,000 MJ currently. While it does throw the balance off some, I would hardly say it alone would cause a lot of people to not use BC power. If anything would do that, it would pretty much be the advanced/compact solars from the IC2 addons since they're basically free energy once you get them running, and it seems to me, at least, that your work with the BC energy system has made more people want to work with it, since energy conduits and energy cells make it much more efficient and effective than before. I'd say a combination of people liking your energy net additions and people not liking infinite energy sources that require fairly small footprint and effort to get running is why a lot of the talk about massive MJ power plants has started up.
The problem with BC energy being overlooked was indeed from the infinite energy devices like solars. made even worse by the lag reduction attempts called compact solars and advanced solars. They were far to cheap to make prior to gregtech, and would trump any other power-system hands down since you could expand them infinitely by just building more of them. People were still using bc energy tho. especially forestry were used by many of us to get our infinite energy without the cheezy op solar farms. The thing is. while i don't mind having multiple fuel types to manage, I don't particularly like having multiple energy networks going all over the place. IC power used to be the only system that was transportable without loss of materials. This is no longer the case however since we now have those TE energy cells that allow the transport of MJ's as well. Personally I have always considered MJ's as mechanical power, and EU's as a form of electrical power. That made sense in light of IC having batteries and BC not. This means that I never end up storing MJ's directly. I rather bring engines and fuel cans with me into the field whenever i need to bring a lot of bc energy with me. (like when setting up a filler or quarry for some purpose or other). I have not built any BC energy networks either. I often have engines connected with either a short shunt of conductive pipe, or directly to the machine itself if that would be a safe thing to do. thus allowing me to control what get's power directly by turning the engines on and off directly. just like you would in real life.
I agree with sentiments that have been expressed before that IC2 power generation from lava is a bit OP. A handful of (geo)thermal generators can easily create more energy than you can create with a basic nuclear reactor. The EU/tick is pretty good, but I think that total output of one bucket of lava could be cut in half, and EU generation from lava would still be an excellent choice for IC2 systems.
If IC2 was made with respect to the mod packs that are in use today, it would probably be much lower for EU from lava. At the time it was created, you really only had buckets to transport lava, or you have to use really long waterproof BC pipes to get from your lava source to the generators. Now with so many different transportation options, the world has gotten smaller, and it is a somewhat trivial and effortless matter to move lots of items across large distances or even dimensions.
I really think the best method for all this balancing and perceived OPness would be to simply cut the total EU from a bucket of lava in half. Both the normal IC2 and GT thermal. (Possibly lower the MJ from a magmatic engine slightly as well.) This would change the choice of lava as fuel from being the best, to just being a design choice based on circumstances and goals.
If IC2 was made with respect to the mod packs that are in use today, it would probably be much lower for EU from lava. At the time it was created, you really only had buckets to transport lava, or you have to use really long waterproof BC pipes to get from your lava source to the generators. Now with so many different transportation options, the world has gotten smaller, and it is a somewhat trivial and effortless matter to move lots of items across large distances or even dimensions.
I really think the best method for all this balancing and perceived OPness would be to simply cut the total EU from a bucket of lava in half. Both the normal IC2 and GT thermal. (Possibly lower the MJ from a magmatic engine slightly as well.) This would change the choice of lava as fuel from being the best, to just being a design choice based on circumstances and goals.
Agreed on a lot of counts. The old way of doing things though was typically in my experience (compact) solars -> IC2 storage -> converters -> Teleport Pipes -> converters -> stuff you actually wanted to power.
Now as far as the storage goes, the "Minecraft justification" I am using is that when you interact with a redstone ore in any way, it glows. There is some sort of Kinetic -> EM spectrum conversion going on there. Piezoelectric if you will - heck, redstone is fairy dust anyways, so I'll roll with it. Hence why systems that need kinetic energy must have that energy stored in molten redstone.
As far as engines/generators go, in real life these things are regulated and have a torque-speed response. (Hence why the TE engines throttle down as they do, and other BC engines increase their piston pump speed.) Mechanical or electrical, doesn't matter. There are optimal points on the curve and very often a required trajectory along it. Additionally, there is a forced synchronous rhythm that multiple machines must adhere to - in most power grids across the world, this is 50 or 60 Hz.
Agree with you there, when I played Tekkit my power system was IC2, and I used the Energy Link and Teleport Pipes to power all my quarries. Only my first quarry was directly powered by BC engines until I learnt and could afford Energy Links. IC2 power generation is excessive when compared to usage.
I like what TE has done, I wasn't sure about it because it was new, but having experimented I'm really enjoying it, and can understand the design decisions to help with server lag, which I can now really see is the main focus of the design.
Now I'm just thinking to myself what power system I want to go for, as there are so many options available. I don't care about efficiency, just if it's fun to build and is able to supply me with what I use.
I like what TE has done, I wasn't sure about it because it was new, but having experimented I'm really enjoying it, and can understand the design decisions to help with server lag, which I can now really see is the main focus of the design.
Now I'm just thinking to myself what power system I want to go for, as there are so many options available. I don't care about efficiency, just if it's fun to build and is able to supply me with what I use.
The IC2 geothermal energie output can easy changed in the config file btw.
I really like the TE MJ mechanic. I don't know if it is effective or not but it is fun to work with and it removed the biggest problem with MJ the storage and regulation. Some forestry machines still take as much MJ as they could without needing this energies. Now with a Redstone Energie Cell i can throttle the output to thous engines. Or machines like the Termionic Fabricator...it has no redstone signal shutdown mechanik so draining for ever energies. Bevor TE i broke the conductive Pipe to the TF now it is a Redstone cell i switch on and off after using the TE.
The point is i don't need this much IC2 energies anymore.
But back to the point of the thread. If you take it on its own no mod is to overpowered. The problem comes from the interaction of this mods. Easy example is a chunk loader (staying logged in would do the same), having a system run for 24 hours with some kind automatic system is really powerful.
The mods should be runnable on there own and to bring that in balance with them working together is nearly impossible i think. On of the god thing for the mod makers is the Forgecraft server the balance is getting better...but as i sayed it is not possible to get everything in line without braking the mod when used alone.
I really like the TE MJ mechanic. I don't know if it is effective or not but it is fun to work with and it removed the biggest problem with MJ the storage and regulation. Some forestry machines still take as much MJ as they could without needing this energies. Now with a Redstone Energie Cell i can throttle the output to thous engines. Or machines like the Termionic Fabricator...it has no redstone signal shutdown mechanik so draining for ever energies. Bevor TE i broke the conductive Pipe to the TF now it is a Redstone cell i switch on and off after using the TE.
The point is i don't need this much IC2 energies anymore.
But back to the point of the thread. If you take it on its own no mod is to overpowered. The problem comes from the interaction of this mods. Easy example is a chunk loader (staying logged in would do the same), having a system run for 24 hours with some kind automatic system is really powerful.
The mods should be runnable on there own and to bring that in balance with them working together is nearly impossible i think. On of the god thing for the mod makers is the Forgecraft server the balance is getting better...but as i sayed it is not possible to get everything in line without braking the mod when used alone.
Celestialphoenix
Too Much Free Time
"I think [Something else] needs changing (please specify in your post)"
I think Lava as a fuel source is 'kinda' okay right now, but it should work like steam engines where you also supply water. Heat in itself doesn't create power, it needs to expand something (like water > steam or air like a stirling engine does).
In my opinion Lava being pumped from the nether however is a problem. It's too easy to create a system with limitless power (good luck trying to pump the nether dry, there's a LOT of lava there) and that system will create lag to boot. Not an issue in single player but on servers pumping Lava from the Nether is the route most people take when creating power for themselves and it causes issues due to the way pumps look for source blocks.
In my opinion: a charcoal based setup is your first tier, bio-mass is basically tier 2. I think Forestry strikes a good balance in how complex it is to setup a renewable energy source. Lava is good to start out with but it will run out soon. In my opinion it should be simply impossible to get Lava out of the Nether.
This also ties in with the issues with Solar panels: people tend to go for easy setups that are completely fire-and-forget. Nether-lava and high-output solars are too maintenance-free in my opinion.[DOUBLEPOST=1357816103][/DOUBLEPOST]
It's actually pretty silly that cells / cans / buckets can even contain Lava. It's all nice and dandy in Vanilla but Vanilla wasn't created with mods like the ones in FTB in mind.
I think Lava as a fuel source is 'kinda' okay right now, but it should work like steam engines where you also supply water. Heat in itself doesn't create power, it needs to expand something (like water > steam or air like a stirling engine does).
In my opinion Lava being pumped from the nether however is a problem. It's too easy to create a system with limitless power (good luck trying to pump the nether dry, there's a LOT of lava there) and that system will create lag to boot. Not an issue in single player but on servers pumping Lava from the Nether is the route most people take when creating power for themselves and it causes issues due to the way pumps look for source blocks.
In my opinion: a charcoal based setup is your first tier, bio-mass is basically tier 2. I think Forestry strikes a good balance in how complex it is to setup a renewable energy source. Lava is good to start out with but it will run out soon. In my opinion it should be simply impossible to get Lava out of the Nether.
This also ties in with the issues with Solar panels: people tend to go for easy setups that are completely fire-and-forget. Nether-lava and high-output solars are too maintenance-free in my opinion.[DOUBLEPOST=1357816103][/DOUBLEPOST]
It's actually pretty silly that cells / cans / buckets can even contain Lava. It's all nice and dandy in Vanilla but Vanilla wasn't created with mods like the ones in FTB in mind.
IMHO this single change shows that Greg, although he claims he's doing changes for balance reasons, either doesn't care about balance or doesn't understand balance. It seems he's just adding stuff that's 'better' than stuff that's already there to keep people using his mod.
It's completely and utterly rediculous that he's making the biggest problem of this modpack; easy free energy through lava, even worse.
I don't think it's the biggest problem (if you remove gregtech especially) but it certainly does show some bias. He mentioned in the IC2 forums that he likes to use lava energy and I think it may just be an unconscious preference that does indeed seem to make this issue more prevalent. Either way it does go the other way from his goal of balance, in my eyes.
People talk as if you HAD to use lava to power everything, if you think something is OP just use other things to get your BC power.
And people love to talk about how solars give free ad infinite energy, yet they forget how easy an automatic tree farm is, infinite charcoal and saplings (Biogas) for your BC engines.
Yes I can agree with the biomass thing. My first dive into FTB I went biomass just becuase it seemed cool. Before I new it I had more on my hands then I would ever need and still had barrels full of wheat which is what I was using.
That said I still really like Biomass and Biofuel. The builds for them are complex and interesting.