IC2 is slowly dying out ?

[Poppycocks]

Man, I just realized, I want storage blocks for UU matter.

 

[Heliomance]

I have to say though, having that much UU matter in an AE storage network with a reasonably comprehensive set of recipes in the MAC is glorious. Mostly at this point we're just using it as a way to keep score, though. What with that and my mining well frame airship (DW20's design - I did have a block-breaker based tunnel bore that I designed myself, but it got eaten by a chunk reset, and I couldn't be bothered to try again), resources are not an issue, which means I'm free to megaproject as much as I like.

 

[Petrus]

The wrench mechanics are loopsided, OTOH, using a specialized tool to remove your machines ain't that stupid and I wish more techy mods would employ said mechanic, just not that draconically.

For me, it would depend on how specialised the machine is, and the other circumstances. Then again, I like moving stuff around.

I think a big part of the conflict I've tended to have (mentally, because this is really the first time I've tried to communicate with other Minecraft players) is the fact that I tend to both want and derive challenge in the game in different ways to how most people seem to. As one example, back when I was using the DNS tech pack for 1.2.5, it installed both Assembly and PowerCraft. Both of those mods used conveyor belts, but Assembly's were squirrely and didn't interact universally with all inventories, whereas PowerCraft's did. So every time I wanted to use Assembly in conjunction with other mods, I also had to use PowerCraft conveyor belts as adapters.

That is the sort of challenge that I like; it allows me to feel as though I've improvised or discovered something. IC2's wrench mechanic, on the other hand, to me just came across as arbitrary and pointless. I simply used NEI's cheat mode every time I wanted to move an IC2 machine, and also found myself grumbling under my breath whenever I did so.

I guess the point is that to me, Minecraft being a sandbox game means that I should (largely) have to find sources of challenge by myself; they shouldn't be arbitrarily imposed on me by a developer, or at least not within a single mod. This is also the reason why so far at least, I've avoided Gregtech like the plague; although most GTech players would probably just say that my real problem is that I'm not good enough at the game for that...and I'm sufficiently lucid to be able to recognise that they're probably right.

Yeah, but it's mitigated by how... hard it is. It was there right from the start, yet many people didn't use it. It's a good example of gating by difficulty and a good balancing mechanic. You want yourself some ore trippling? Well, you better work for it, cause we're not giving it for free.

I've got nearly half a stack of rich slag now; I haven't felt the need to use it for anything yet. Gold and diamonds are about the only two things which I might be tempted to use it on; but everything else is sufficiently abundant that there's no need. Redstone is actually the main thing I tend to run short of. There is also virtually no renewable form of power generation left in the game which hasn't been nerfed into the ground, that I know of. Lava is still decent in TE, but almost everything in UE has been gutted.

That's one of my biggest beefs with both IC and UE. They give you better returns right from the start, but all of the recipes are very wasteful with the higher return resources.

I consider UE and TE to have a decent tradeoff. TE requires less materials, but the main material you need (gold) is sufficiently difficult to find that it can be annoying early game. UE on the other hand requires relatively cheap and abundant materials (redstone, osmium, iron, steel, coal, copper and wool for wiring) but you need a lot of them, and early game steel production isn't much fun. That's why I've started installing Cogs of the Machine now as well, which gives me the pounder with my first iron and redstone. Cogs' tradeoff, however, is that its' ore doubling isn't guaranteed. You might get three fragments, or you might only get one. You might say that that should be nerfed to a max of two, and I wouldn't complain. Two is enough for me.

So my initial progression path now is usually Cogs -> TE -> UE, and then continuing with TE/UE hybrids for the most part. It's comfortable and gives me something to do, but it isn't painful like trying to go straight to UE from punching trees is.

 

[snooder]

1000 UU is 142 iridium, or 35 iridium plates.

You're not supposed to generate everything from UUmatter. The only thing I can think of that uses more than 35 iridium plates to build from scratch is fusion, and you're not supposed to just throw that together on a whim.

142 iridium isn't a lot. The Gravichestplate alone costs 84 iridium, and you still have to make the rest of the quantum gear. Not to mention any nuclear/fusion reactor pieces.

And anyway, the benefit of being able to generate everything from UUmatter is that you can make actual factories. You KNOW exactly how much material you have coming in and can calibrate to improve efficiency. Without that, you're just at the mercy of RNG over whether your mining machine pulls up a proper ratio of iron to copper to whatever.

 

[DoctorOr]

And anyway, the benefit of being able to generate everything from UUmatter is that you can make actual factories. You KNOW exactly how much material you have coming in and can calibrate to improve efficiency. Without that, you're just at the mercy of RNG over whether your mining machine pulls up a proper ratio of iron to copper to whatever.

You're saying "blah blah blah"

I'm hearing "IC2 is woefully out of balance and UUmatter energy cost is one of the prime ways"

This theoretical IC3 should rename the thing to an IridiumFabricator., and pop one out every 7x energy input. (Where X is 100 times current required energy for uumatter)

 

[southernfriedbb]

You know, there was a mod that could do things similar to UUM, much more efficiently at a much more reasonable cost...

...What was the name of it? Oh yeah, Equivalent Exchange 2.

Funny EE2( and EE3 ) generates so much hate for giving you "free" resources, IC2 barely elicits a response other than it's too expensive

 

[Poppycocks]

You know, there was a mod that could do things similar to UUM, much more efficiently at a much more reasonable cost...

...What was the name of it? Oh yeah, Equivalent Exchange 2.

Funny EE2( and EE3 ) generates so much hate for giving you "free" resources, IC2 barely elicits a response other than it's too expensive

Which is the good kind of response considering what it does.

You know that free stuff detracts from your game once you realize that you've been standing at your transmutation table for hours on end.

 

[Petrus]

You know, there was a mod that could do things similar to UUM, much more efficiently at a much more reasonable cost...

...What was the name of it? Oh yeah, Equivalent Exchange 2.

Funny EE2( and EE3 ) generates so much hate for giving you "free" resources, IC2 barely elicits a response other than it's too expensive

Yes, but I think the expense is actually the point. EE2 was perceived (and I emphasise the word perceived here, because contrary to said perception, designing a truly decent condenser array actually did take some genuine skill in my opinion. I even went the cobblegen exploit route at one point, and the mod was still balanced well enough that a 24 node generator didn't give me as much output as one of my condenser arrays) as being cheap, and allowing a person to get whatever resources they wanted with virtually no effort. UU matter might allow transmutation of various things, but because generating it is complicated due to its' expense, it is not vilified.

As the saying goes, perception is everything, sadly.[DOUBLEPOST=1368110172][/DOUBLEPOST]

Which is the good kind of response considering what it does.

You know that free stuff detracts from your game once you realize that you've been standing at your transmutation table for hours on end.

I didn't do that. Granted, I largely got bored once I had built sufficient arrays that I was getting around one red matter per minute, yes; but IMHO 1.2.5 was also a much more limited game in many ways than what we have now. If I had EE2 in my current game, I'd build my arrays and absolutely enjoy them, but it wouldn't end there. I'd still build systems utilising ender tanks and frame based mining machines, because those things are much more doable now, as well as scaling Ars Magica's tech tree and whatever else.

 

[southernfriedbb]

Which is the good kind of response considering what it does.

You know that free stuff detracts from your game once you realize that you've been standing at your transmutation table for hours on end.

That could be true, I was just commenting on the similarity of both mechanics, and the wildly different response they generate from the community. It's kinda inconsistent.

 

[Poppycocks]

That could be true, I was just commenting on the similarity of both mechanics, and the wildly different response they generate from the community. It's kinda inconsistent.

No, no, not at all, that's the thing, you're not using UU for everything because that would be dumb. You could use it to make... cobble for example. But you wont as an igneous extruder (or a dozzen) can provide you with as much of that as you could ever need.

Basically, the extraordinary cost allows for... well, more playing actually. So yeah, as similar as those mechanics are, they're different as one locks you at the table unwilling to try anything else, and the other makes WANT to you try ANYTHING BUT THAT, but is still there, in case you ever need it. Sort of a stretch goal once you hit the other ones.

So yeah, that's why the responses are so different, you could almost say that the IC2 way is... balanced.

 

[Petrus]

No, no, not at all, that's the thing, you're not using UU for everything because that would be dumb. You could use it to make... cobble for example. But you wont as an igneous extruder (or a dozzen) can provide you with as much of that as you could ever need.

Basically, the extraordinary cost allows for... well, more playing actually. So yeah, as similar as those mechanics are, they're different as one locks you at the table unwilling to try anything else, and the other makes WANT to you try ANYTHING BUT THAT, but is still there, in case you ever need it. Sort of a stretch goal once you hit the other ones.

So yeah, that's why the responses are so different, you could almost say that the IC2 way is... balanced.

I like the way you explain things. It's also true that the trans table did create some sort of phobia in me. It was weird, actually.

 

[Poppycocks]

I like the way you explain things. It's also true that the trans table did create some sort of phobia in me. It was weird, actually.

Thank you!

 

[southernfriedbb]

...So yeah, that's why the responses are so different, you could almost say that the IC2 way is... balanced.

I disagree, at least for default IC2. It doesn't take long to get to the point of generating UUM in default IC2, Pretty much once you have access to the nether and can power a quarry, you can have all the UUM you need.

 

[Poppycocks]

I disagree, at least for default IC2. It doesn't take long to get to the point of generating UUM in default IC2, Pretty much once you have access to the nether and can power a quarry, you can have all the UUM you need.

Which is why I hold gregs work in high regard although he pisses me off sometimes xD. Making the matterfab require iridium in the first place was a stroke of genius imo.

 

[Heliomance]

No, no, not at all, that's the thing, you're not using UU for everything because that would be dumb. You could use it to make... cobble for example. But you wont as an igneous extruder (or a dozzen) can provide you with as much of that as you could ever need.

Basically, the extraordinary cost allows for... well, more playing actually. So yeah, as similar as those mechanics are, they're different as one locks you at the table unwilling to try anything else, and the other makes WANT to you try ANYTHING BUT THAT, but is still there, in case you ever need it. Sort of a stretch goal once you hit the other ones.

So yeah, that's why the responses are so different, you could almost say that the IC2 way is... balanced.

Depends how much of it you have ^_^

 

[KirinDave]

Swapping IC out for UE, better IC does not make.

Asamatteroffact, UE is more or less a copy of IC with a number of shortcommings copied. Although there is just a little bit more of spit and boot polish, I'll give you that.

Nonsense, it's nomore so than Redpower is/was.

Ore trippling in UE, for example, is ridiculously lame. It's the same bloody old furnace interface,

Aaaaaaaccutally the multi-furnaces from Mekanism (NEI factory) are... surprisingly rare. The closest you see is the induction furnace (2 slots) and the new steam furnace.

Mekanism gives you an ore doubling system that doesn't double all ores, but doubles ores necessary for power transmission. Later you can build the next piece (the purification chamber) and get ore tripling. I'm not sure how this is more or less lame than factorizations grinder->mixer->slag->crystalizer step.

Also note that the osmium ore outputs in the pulverizer.

using FLINT for fuel,

Which is a funny and possibly clever choice. Flint is not exactly rare, but it's not exactly plentiful. I know of two ways to mass-produce flint in our modpack (which is pretty damn eclectic), and one of them is bugged. So basically you gotta mine or automine a lot to keep ore tripling. I sort of like the "feel" of Factorization's 4-step system, but I confess I never went for the crystalization step. You got like to 275% for most ores (better for silver) and that was fine!

and its ridiculous tiered recipes (did I just do that? Yes I did, looking at you energy cube. But to be honest, many are guilty of this, looking at you mfr expansion cards, buildcraft gears, gtech machines).

Tiered recipes are not ridiculous or bad. If anything, they're a service to the user. They're receiving wider adoption over time because they are good. (P.S., IC2 does it too and it's not the part of IC2 I have a problem with).

The solars are another nice example of repeated mistakes and I'm fully expecting the UE team to eventually go trough the whole nerf/buff cycle of death that adv. solars vent trough.

This part runs really long, so I'm gonna spoiler it. TL;DR: The relative costs of the generators and the incredible spread of power outputs between types means that UE's power balance is already better than Gregtech. The only place it breaks down is the default conversion to IC2 power means that you have Eff-You-Ic2-Power forever. The MJ conversion and steam conversion are not similarly broken, and the internal use of the power is consistent; a handful of advanced solars do not solve your power problems forever (or ever).

Spoiler

UE's power system and balance is way better off than IC2 right now. Look at the distribution of power output between mekanism generators, the simple coal generator, and the atomic science stuff. You can output (and consume) megawatts of energy in UE, but the very best passive generator is a feeble 9kw and is fairly expensive compared to every other generator out there. If you make a Hydrogen generator you're going to be getting may times that in yield, on a system that can also operate perpetually without the sky, and that doesn't cost many times that. The balance for the Hydrogen (and bio-generator) is that they require extra automation and the Hydrogen reactor requires a steady "kicker" power source.

That's a good balance point, because these generators are still relatively feeble compared to the Atomic options. But, and evidently everyone agrees this part was cribbed from IC2, the name of the game is "strong power generator risks mayhem." Atomic Science's output start at greater than 4x the other generators if you do it right (and there IS design space in AS reactors, they are multiblocks with mechanics, you can build weaker heat-stable reactors or stronger phased period reactors), and they don't cost even close to 4x. They just have to be treated very carefully because they will cheerfully render your base utterly uninhabitable if done wrong.

And the best power source in UE requires that you build a multi-chunk mutiblock structure and power it with a huge sum of power over many minutes (basically you have to have a fusion reactor the first time you do it, which is itself nearly the size of a full chunk) then produce output over many runs to make antimatter for a fulmination generator, which is basically all the power you need ever if you can get it running; so there is a high motivation for that crazy level of investment.

And here's the reason that works: UE fusion and atomic options are expensive, but they're not proportionally expensive to the output. Most IC2 options try to balance the output power to the cost of the generator on a nearly 1:1 basis (hence nuclear eats so many resources), but this is a mistake because the automation, maintenance and risk costs already help offset that.

Then there's the pick on machines thing. A glaring attempt at one-upping IC2 without considering... well, anything, really.

No. It's just that the IC2 wrench mechanic is tedious and superfluous and radically inconsistent with the rest of the world and mod meta. No one really likes it, we've just all learned to deal because we make omni-wrenches and scowl at IC2's core mechanic here. I cannot see how we've decided that abandoning it one-uppsmanship. Basically no other mod does this.

It's IC, with kawaii ears.

I don't think anyone denies UE was inspired by IC2 and by Redpower2. I think, design-wise, it's gone pretty far beyond IC2 in a number of important areas. Unfortunately, code quality is not one of those areas. MineChem is a mess, Electric Expansion can still break some worldgen, Mekanism's conversion default for IC2 is weird, and Atomic Science can be buggy sometimes.

but it's being made (similarly to TE) mostly with "being good" in mind, as opposed to straight up "being better than" in mind, like UE is.

Obviously I cannot peek into the minds of the devs and art team, but I do hang out in #universalelectricty on espernet sometimes and they do not talk about IC2 and how they can stroke their handlebar mustaches and tie RichardG to the tracks. They want cool industrial mods and they want to make a really big unified mod system that not only runs off one power system, but also unifies around a chemistry system and a mechanical system. It's a big job, no doubt.

But I'm not sure why IC2 must be the only game in town that does this. Greg is doing his thing, and crazily enough he now has native compatibility with UE power. Similarly the UE folks have done things to avoid breaking his universe (like changing platinum to osmium so as to not have oreDictWars). So I don't think that the devs themselves from the relative ecosystems are on particularly bad terms.[DOUBLEPOST=1368113655][/DOUBLEPOST]

You know, there was a mod that could do things similar to UUM, much more efficiently at a much more reasonable cost...

...What was the name of it? Oh yeah, Equivalent Exchange 2.

Funny EE2( and EE3 ) generates so much hate for giving you "free" resources, IC2 barely elicits a response other than it's too expensive

EE2 got hate for this because it was often lumped in with IC2 where it is demonstrably harder to get free stuff. The resulting social dynamics (a weirdly strong culture of Minecraft PvP and grief at the time) made the IC2 die-hards really mad.

 

[southernfriedbb]

Which is why I hold gregs work in high regard although he pisses me off sometimes xD. Making the matterfab require iridium in the first place was a stroke of genius imo.

As well as providing a non UUM source of it. My only gripe with gregtech is the recipes, not the resource cost, just the f***ing recipes. I don't want to spend 45 minutes crafting the NukaBlastoWhatsamadoodle.

 

[Ako_the_Builder]

Don't want to help this thread become about gtech more than ic2 but... gregtech definitely makes ic2 better - vanilla ic2 uu matter is far too cheap and easy to get, gtech matter fab and energy requirement should be the standard.

edit: regarding the uu bit - vanilla ic2 uu cost is probably fine if playing with just ic2, but when used as a core mod for other addons that improve ic2 it then feels too cheap, (speaking just for myself of course).

Where greg is going wrong, at least in my opinion, is trying to make his mod do everything, rather than focusing on it being a solid ic2 addon. I'm talking about translocators, regulators, assembling tables etc - he should improve the gui's, documentation and operation of his core processing and power generation stuff.

ic2 is a solid mod and a solid base for lots of addons.

 

[GPuzzle]

My opinion: I like IC2 and I don't think it's dying or anything.
You can bash at me later.

 

[Lambert2191]

You know, there was a mod that could do things similar to UUM, much more efficiently at a much more reasonable cost...

...What was the name of it? Oh yeah, Equivalent Exchange 2.

Funny EE2( and EE3 ) generates so much hate for giving you "free" resources, IC2 barely elicits a response other than it's too expensive

which is exactly what I mentioned in my amateur rap battle thingy