GregTech Debate Thread

[Enigmius1]

Why is Gregtech configured to make quantum armor harder to get but not nerf the armor directly? That is possible, you can take out the fire protection, invincibility etc. but they are all still enabled in FTB. If the problem was getting quantum too fast and therefore basically ending the game because it's too good why not nerf the item directly? You don't want to lose your toy, is that it?

"...getting quantum too fast and therefore basically ending the game because it's too good..."

When did Minecraft become an MMO where people play it for the gear and then when they've got the best gear decide that they're done? I mean, talk about an awful choice of game if you're just in it for the gear. I don't care how many mods you tack on or how much of a grind it's turned into, I don't ever see Minecraft as being the kind of game that offers such robust and compelling options in terms of gear that it affords more than a couple dozen hours of game time before a person is feeling there's nothing left but to start over.

If I want to play a game that hinges on the gear grind, I'll play an MMORPG where the core reward mechanic is gear. And for as long as people try to play a sandbox building/RTS hybrid like an MMORPG, we're going to get dumbass mods like GregTech. If someone is going to take it upon themselves to make a giant sodding mess of so many mods in their well-intentioned but poorly implemented attempt to make the game more "challenging" to suit the "not quite ready for MMORPG prime time" crowd, I would at least hope they'd do their homework and learn from the mistakes made in the genre they're trying to emulate. I don't think there would be a single complaint about *anything* in GregTech if he had:

a) Left everything completely alone. No changed recipes, no changed power requirements.
b) Added his extra tier of machines and gadgets and restrictions on top of what already existed.

But of course, then he'd have had to make them fun or nobody would use them. He'd have to provide incentive for people to make them want to switch over to a machine that pulls MV power and resets if the power supply runs dry. He would have had to adopt the single most fundamental mantra of good progressive game development: "I'm going to make you give more, but I'm going to reward you proportionately for it."

But he didn't do that. He did it absolutely backwards, and that's why people are unhappy. If people have to go in and turn the config on its ear to turn the mod into something they can stomach, it might as well not even be there. There are plenty of other mods that could take GregTech's place that don't make such a gawdawful mess of things.

 

[noskk]

I hated GregTech the first time I saw the add-on in IC2 forum and it's pretty much the only IC2 add-on I didn't add to my mod collections, because most of the thing he added were not even usable (judging from the recipe and description in his OP thread, blame the description ).

Later I tried the mod (@ 1.4.2 new world) because I was bored with IC2 simpleness, but I was annoyed by the steel and compressor requirement at first so I disabled those... After playing for a while I was in love with the rock cutter, sapphire/ruby to diamond, and some additional recipes he added for circuits that double the amount you got and later I simply added the GregTech to my must-have-add-on lists. After I moved to 1.4.5 (he added Industrial Grinder and Blast Furnace), I used the default mode and Idk why but I accidentally neglected all the TE smelting machines, maybe because I was comparing the TE machines to tier 2 IC2 machines (induction furnace, rotary mac, etc), IMO the TE machines are very slow (even though you can automate them, still very slow)..and with the addition of Industrial Grinder you can pretty much ignore the extra dusts you get from TE machines (since Grinders give even more.. hell they are OP)..

Hmm, GregTech provides configs for most of things he changed. I believe some of the newer things he added to the add-on came from the suggestions made by some people in his IC2 forum thread and of course from the critiques a lot of people had done, i.e.
1. People complained Railcraft's Blast Furnace thus he implemented his own Blast Furnace (which IMO, is easier to make and I don't have to search the nether fortress to make steel)
2. People complained about the Iridium requirement for the Matter Fabricator, he made a new ore called Sheldonite Ore that farm-able in The End with 4 ores-> 1 Iridium chunk
3. People complained when he removed the diamond/gem dust -> diamond/gem recipe in later version of 1.4.2, he added another machine in 1.4.5 called Implosion Compressor
So if you don't like the mod, you can suggest something in the GregTech IC2 forum, complaining here is not helping.. if he ignores you like what he usually did at first, just bug him a few more times and he might change his mind and comment about the suggestion..

For the latest version of the add-on, the only thing that's harder to obtain is just the Chrome.. even with Chrome someone mentioned in his IC2 thread that Rock Cutter was overpowered and that he and his partner could farm almost 1 gold chest of Redstone stacks in 1-2 hours, which would give them around 54 Chromes (you need around 384 to make 24 fusion coils ); so as you can see this is one of the prove that the Fusion Reactor is reachable (end game)..

The compressor requirement to make storage block is one that you can complain for now; Idk how did you play MC but compressor was pretty much one of the most basic stuff you would make if you didn't disable all the changes from GregTech, well in case you disabled most of his changes, reverting the compressor changes were not hard to do right?

In conclusion: at least he tried to improve his add-on..

EDIT: After looking for the usage of various metal blocks other than tin, copper, silver and the expensive golden apple, except for anvil (which I don't even bother making since it's a waste of Iron) I have to say they are pretty much after you gain diamonds or steels (bore head, the SteveCart drill, Mystcraft Linkbook, Factorization dark ingot) so don't tell me that you don't have compressor by that time, you can pretty much remove IC2 then and go on with TE+Buildcraft..

EDIT2: IIRC Tin and Silver block have no use apart from the storage block, and I believe you won't make storage blocks that fast because of the barrel..If you say that you need to convert all your other mods Silver to IC2 Silver before you can compress it to storage block, then yeah that's the "only" config you need to change..or else just bug Greg to change the Silver storage block since some people prefer to disable GregTech Silver spawn (which is as rare as gold)..

EDIT3: IMO Nano sabre is too easy to make, and I don't know why he don't change the recipe to something else; that thing can one-slash creeper and rechargeable..

 

[ScottWears]

While it's nice to hear you say it, what you are saying does not matter, I just illustrated a nerf to steves carts. This backs my statement that the compressed blocks should not be a default requirement in the cfg. I was asked to back up my statement, and I did. I'm not here to argue opinions.

Watch your tone ICountFrom0 whether someones opinion matters on the forums or not is not your choice to make.

 

[Shinrei186]

You know im not sure why this is such an issue . its minecraft for crying out loud, yeah greg tech makes it harder to get stuff but is the stuff really the reason most of us play minecraft? I think most of us play to build really cool and epic shit. Yeah IC2 is probably my favorite mod pack and some of the recipe changes made me a tad annoyed. But honestly it forced me to dive more into rail craft and other mods plus is stopped me from just doing IC2 and playing around a lot more. Actually made the game more fun. Not because I dont want that invincible armor but because I dont feel a need to rush since it takes longer. Now I focus more on getting a lot of everything else. You should try it too youd be surprised how looking for the last diamond to make a forestry machine you happen across the last piece you need for a fusion reactor instead. Anyway thats my two cents, if it really bugs you that much its not like its to hard to google how to change the config file >.>. yeah its not practical for new users, but honestly new users probably wont even notice the difference past the change to vanilla recipes.

 

[makeshiftwings]

You know im not sure why this is such an issue . its minecraft for crying out loud, yeah greg tech makes it harder to get stuff but is the stuff really the reason most of us play minecraft? I think most of us play to build really cool and epic shit.

Right, which is why changing other devs' mods just to make it harder to make cool and epic shit is dumb.

But honestly it forced me to dive more into rail craft and other mods plus is stopped me from just doing IC2 and playing around a lot more. Actually made the game more fun.

I don't need to be "forced" to try the other mods by making one mod less fun. I already try out lots of things from different mods, and so do the people I play with, so there's no benefit to us in making one of the mods more annoying to use. If something really needs to be done in FTB to "force" people to try the other mods, then they should focus on making the other mods better instead of making IC worse.

 

[Doormat]

I
If the "fun" comes from just switching recipes around so the ones you memorized are now wrong and you have to go read a wiki or use NEI to figure out how to now do what you used to do, then again, that's only fun for people who have memorized the old mods, and confusing for people who are new and can't figure out why every FTB server has different recipes for IC items and why they can't follow any youtube tutorials on how to use IC or anything like that.

I don't think anyone cares about making the Quantum suit harder to get. I know I don't. I'm more annoyed at making the intro tier machines and items require a bunch of hoops to jump through.

I absolutely agree.

Someone who isn't up to speed on IC2 and what GregTech does to it is going to be completely lost.

Imagine the confusion when a newb does a search for a machine on the IC2 wiki and is shown the default recipe ... only to find he/she can't make it that way.

What I think is most worrisome is that including GregTech into the default pack would split the server community into at least three groups ... those who disable GT altogether, those who enable GT but with the default IC2 recipes, and those who enable GT with the GT variant recipes, and it'll be hard to tell the difference. I've just looked at a random sample of the posts in SMP Server Promotion. Not one of them specifies the status of the GT recipes ... which tends to suggest that they are using the default setup of the modpack.

However we're still in the Beta phase and I'm hoping we'll see a modpack which excludes GT, one which includes it - then it'll be obvious what the recipes are gonna be.

 

[Shinrei186]

could have sworn there has been like 15 posts about disabling greg tech >.>. I like it, some obviously dont, its not that hard to disable so why is it an issue? also maybe you didnt feel forced to use other mods but IC2 was more or less a 1 in all for me with just some build craft pipes. Which yet again is user preference. However let me make this point, what makes your argument that makes it worse any more valid then mine that it makes it better? This entire thread has more or less been people ranting back and forth about its better or worse when its obviously neither. Some are going to like it some are going to hate it, however FTB chose to have it installed by default. Rather then complaining its there either disable it, change the default recipes you dont like back, or dont use FTB. Complaining in a forum that it makes things harder or even pointlessly hard isnt a fix to the issue and only opens up to people getting heated and causing a problem.

 

[FMan_0000]

I actually love every single mod on FTB, and I coulden't live without any of them. I was when they removed extrabees from the pack, but I really dont care too much if they re-add it later, when it's fixed.

I just learned to love every single mod. Every mod adds something new and amacing to game. Just learn to use them all, and it won't be that hard to craft a macerator.

 

[MrZwij]

I love GregTech now, for the same reason as others - it slows the pace of the game and gives me more to look forward to long-term. I see many, many benefits to it.

It's not perfect. I happen to agree that compressing blocks was probably a mistake. It makes the Factorization Packager nearly useless, for instance. But technically having a compressor doesn't require a power infrastructure. You can just throw a stack of redstone in the compressor and it will work.

 

[FMan_0000]

I love GregTech now, for the same reason as others - it slows the pace of the game and gives me more to look forward to long-term. I see many, many benefits to it.

It's not perfect. I happen to agree that compressing blocks was probably a mistake. It makes the Factorization Packager nearly useless, for instance. But technically having a compressor doesn't require a power infrastructure. You can just throw a stack of redstone in the compressor and it will work.

compressor it's just a wired iron block with some stone. You can get one in pretty low playtime.

 

[MrZwij]

compressor it's just a wired iron block with some stone. You can get one in pretty low playtime.

Yes, I know. My point was the compressor can be the ONLY piece of IC2 you use, if GregTech is set up to default settings and you refuse to use IC2 blocks. Because you can power the compressor with redstone.

My major reason for not liking the requirement to compress blocks is that it just seems fiddly and nit-picky. Like throwing up an obstacle just to have an obstacle (unlike the recipe changes, which I think are logically consistent.)

 

[SeniLiX]

It does seem pretty logic to me to use a compressor to compress items into blocks.

 

[LazDude2012]

SeniLiX, the only problem is that blocks are used in many other mods besides IC2, often by people who don't want to touch the IC2 tech tree. GregTech, in its almighty wisdom, forces people to use IC2 and GT whether they want to or not. People with no intention to ever use IC2 or GregTech are suddenly forced to use it so they can get what they need in the mods they want to use.

 

[ICountFrom0]

And in return, those who are most satisfied with GT all talk about using other mods until they where ready and able to move into using GT. I'm starting to wonder if they would feel the same if it was a vanilla install with just IC2 and GT.

 

[MrZwij]

And in return, those who are most satisfied with GT all talk about using other mods until they where ready and able to move into using GT. I'm starting to wonder if they would feel the same if it was a vanilla install with just IC2 and GT.

I would. I'm still on an IC2 track for my ore processing. IC2 machines are still awesome - they just require a little more work and patience with GregTech.

 

[LazDude2012]

I actually prefer Thermal Expansion, GT or no GT.

 

[MrZwij]

I actually prefer Thermal Expansion, GT or no GT.

It's disabled on the server I play on because the admins blame it for corrupting the original world. I need to try it out though.

 

[Bluehorazon]

SeniLiX, the only problem is that blocks are used in many other mods besides IC2, often by people who don't want to touch the IC2 tech tree. GregTech, in its almighty wisdom, forces people to use IC2 and GT whether they want to or not. People with no intention to ever use IC2 or GregTech are suddenly forced to use it so they can get what they need in the mods they want to use.

In this case I would suggest removing IC2 and Gregs. Since exspecially IC2 changes a lot of vanilla-mechanics (exspecially about explosions) which make no sense without IC2. If you don't use a mod it is always better to remove it instead of ignoring it. And if you are on a server than how about using someone else compressor? The reason to play on a server is to interact with other people and exspecially gregs adds to this by making some things a bit more difficult to add a community-effort. Like building a community-macerator or a blast-furnace and such. Ecu was speaking about this as he talked about his plans for Redux and his main problem, which he also explained based on forgecraft as an example, is that even on a server everyone plays on his own and just builds his little house without much interaction because it is so easy to do this.

 

[makeshiftwings]

could have sworn there has been like 15 posts about disabling greg tech >.>. I like it, some obviously dont, its not that hard to disable so why is it an issue? also maybe you didnt feel forced to use other mods but IC2 was more or less a 1 in all for me with just some build craft pipes. Which yet again is user preference. However let me make this point, what makes your argument that makes it worse any more valid then mine that it makes it better? This entire thread has more or less been people ranting back and forth about its better or worse when its obviously neither. Some are going to like it some are going to hate it, however FTB chose to have it installed by default. Rather then complaining its there either disable it, change the default recipes you dont like back, or dont use FTB. Complaining in a forum that it makes things harder or even pointlessly hard isnt a fix to the issue and only opens up to people getting heated and causing a problem.

Of course we all know you can disable it, as has been said a million times. We also know we could just make a custom server with whatever mods we want, or go play Tekkit instead. The reason we're discussing what mods we want to be in the FTB pack is because this is the forum for the FTB pack, and the thread about whether or not GT should be in the FTB pack. And again, it cuts both ways: people who want the annoying GT changes could just enable them. Both sides know that despite the ability to change configs or mods, that the default config is going to get used a lot and will be easier to support, so both sides want theirs to be the default while trying to get the other side to think that it's fine if theirs isn't the default.

 

[CrafterOfMines57]

I just wanted to say that the version of GregTech that FTB uses is extremely out of date, from what I can tell it is still on version 2.03b, the current version of GregTech is version 2.53e. An absolute ton of things have been added between the time that it got added to the mod and now, no more centrifuging things for 45 minutes straight, those recipes got moved to a new machine called an Industrial Electrolyzer that does that stuff in under a minute or two, 3 multiblock machines of Greg's, an Industrial Grinder (Allows you to get about 2.5x the product from ores), a Blast Furnace(required for melting GregTech metals for a legitimate tech tree progression for GregTech, also makes solars a lot harder to get, although that might not be a good point for the purpose of this thread), an Implosion Compressor(uses ITNT to do certain compressions like iridium plates, more planned uses to come), new Nether and End ores that make it much easier to get chrome and iridium, there are planned changes to the fusion coil recipe to make it easier to obtain one, jack hammers (acts as a replacement for a mining drill until you can obtain a mining drill working about the same speed, maybe even faster, on stone and dirt, but not on ores), and a lot more. Overall GregTech is, according to Greg, a prerelease and it is by no means finished or going to be completely finished anytime soon.

TL;DR Please wait for an FTB update before deciding whether or not you want this mod in the pack.