GregTech Debate Thread
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Yes, it can be! In fact, it may be impossible. The arguments that people are putting forward are their opinions on the mod, as well as their feelings about what it does to other mods. Opinions and feelings, by their nature, are inherently personal and therefore there will never be any universal application of them. They are the polar opposite of unarguable facts.
If you're looking for a solid fact, though, I will say that GregTech adds more challenge to the game. Some people will be of the opinion that this is worthwhile, exciting, and interesting. Others will be of the opinion that this makes it tedious, boring and annoying. But, this is why the Feed the Beat pack is as configurable as it is. We've give people the option of GregTech if they're inclined to the challenge, and they can turn it off if it's something that they enjoy. In FTB Beta A Pack, we deliberately defaulted GregTech to ON in order to encourage people to try it out and see if they liked it or not. THIS MAY NOT ALWAYS BE THE CASE IN FUTURE PACKS!!
So, there will not be any universal decision about what is best for the SSP or SMP community as a whole. That's the whole point of the launcher. It's not just an extra bit of software to get our version of modding out there. It's a platform to allow folks to easily play modded Minecraft, in many different ways - hopefully we or a third party pack can find a way you enjoy to play it.
Well, personally, when I played tekkit, back in the day, I use to think that IC2 was a really hard mod, simply because I was new or maybe because I didn't really knew how to use it, anyway, gregtech adds machines/stuff? Awesome, but leave our recipes alone. Don't want a mod unbalanced? Create one yourself, and don't interfere with other mods, if the mod creator thinks is balanced, and no one complains, then see ya!
And don't tell me is comfigurable, because if 50%+ of the people that use the mod change it... Then there is a problem with it.
And don't tell me is comfigurable, because if 50%+ of the people that use the mod change it... Then there is a problem with it.
Personally I like GregTech. While maybe changing the recipes of vanilla IC2 wasn't a good idea, it does certainly make it more challenging and in my view, fun. How long does it take to just craft a macerator, electric furnace and a generator before you double the ore output?
I must have done that so many times - I've always started with IC2 in a new world since I started playing with mods. Now that it's more difficult to make a macerator, solar panels and windmills, I can actually start with a mod I don't normally start with.
Also, I love some of the items that GregTech has such as the "4th tier" storage block (Is it the IDSU? I can't remember from the top of my head) and the fusion reactor is pretty cool.
I must have done that so many times - I've always started with IC2 in a new world since I started playing with mods. Now that it's more difficult to make a macerator, solar panels and windmills, I can actually start with a mod I don't normally start with.
Also, I love some of the items that GregTech has such as the "4th tier" storage block (Is it the IDSU? I can't remember from the top of my head) and the fusion reactor is pretty cool.
So people are just too lazy to try other mods and Gregtech making the IC2 stuff harder is the only way they get their asses to try other mods because they are better then. The problem here is the whole fact that there are multiple ways to achieve the same thing, ore doubling. If there was only one way to do this then this whole balancing mess wouldn't be necessary.
To me IC2 just changes the basic game so much that you end up doing IC2 stuff all the time. You want the electric tools and quantum armor because they're just too good. IC2 just doesn't really work with other mods for this reason, other mods do not add anything that would be better than IC2 tools and armor. Okay, you can make wood farm with Forestry but you won't need wood in the end. I guess you need rubber but you can get rubber from slimeballs and you can make an automated slime farm which doesn't require other mods.
So, I'm going to play Magic World pack because you can't end up invincible with quantum armor and can't troll Twilight Forest with mining lasers, jetpacks and portals. Many cross-mod exploits are also removed since most of them included IC2. It actually feels like a pack and not just IC2 with other stuff added to it.
To me IC2 just changes the basic game so much that you end up doing IC2 stuff all the time. You want the electric tools and quantum armor because they're just too good. IC2 just doesn't really work with other mods for this reason, other mods do not add anything that would be better than IC2 tools and armor. Okay, you can make wood farm with Forestry but you won't need wood in the end. I guess you need rubber but you can get rubber from slimeballs and you can make an automated slime farm which doesn't require other mods.
So, I'm going to play Magic World pack because you can't end up invincible with quantum armor and can't troll Twilight Forest with mining lasers, jetpacks and portals. Many cross-mod exploits are also removed since most of them included IC2. It actually feels like a pack and not just IC2 with other stuff added to it.
IC2 is in a lot of danger for me of being removed from my normal play pack, hell Gregtech is almost the only reason I keep IC2 around, everything IC2 does apart from jetpacks\tools\quantum armor(which includes the garavitation version) can be handled by something else and once TC3\EE3\Xycraft get up to speed even that should be negated. I'm not saying that IC2 is a bad mod, it's not, it's a very good mod but at this point I'm tempted to move IC2 and it's addons into their own little pack and play them standalone (well with maybe redpower once it's released, cause bugger carrying anything and the gregtech sorting method? as much as I like gregtech...... yeah no)
You have some very valid points, and on a server most of what you have just said is true. However I like to play SSP and when playing SSP I like to have all of the mods together. I can then decide if I want to "cheat" pr "troll" Twilight Forest with my magic tech armor, or if I want to go in there with only vanilla tools and iron armor and have a challenge. I can also decide this way if I want to exploit cross mod bugs to make things easier, or if I want to do things a bit harder but more fun and more interesting. This has always been my take on mods like EE2. I always liked to have EE2 installed on my SSP 1.2.5 worlds. Sometimes I would just run through and go all EE build a milker and then have infinite resources to build anything I wanted with all of the fancy rings and gem armors. And sometimes I would touch EE until I had enough diamonds from legit mining (hand mining, BC quarry, RP quarry, ect.) and then I would spend all those diamonds to make something like the swift wolfs.
You see minecraft is a game of many faces (well 6 in total I suppose.
). And because of this you can play however you want, you want a mod that adds armor made of dirt that gives you god mode? Go make it! No ones going to stop you, you want to add that mod to your SSP world? More power to you. You see we all have our personal differences and we all play differently, and just as we all play differently we all have different things we would like to add to a mod. And its the same for all the different mod devs, they have different ways of looking at things and so they all make drastically different mods. Which IMHO is what gives Minecraft and all the mods that go with it so much variety and makes it so much fun. So really what would happen if you (or "I" or anyone else) pushed there opinions on everyone who plays minecraft? Well we would have a very different and quite frankly boring game. If every person was forced to think the same way as you (Again or "I" or anyone else) do then all mods would be the same, they would all follow the same rules of how they should "play" out and they would be quite boring.Before the FTB pack came out I had no idea about gregs tech I had never heard of it before and frankly had no idea what it did. So I started researching it and at first to be quite honest I pretty much hated it. One thing I have always loved about IC2 is it has always been pretty much the same, no big changes, no massive overhauls, same recipes (More or less) and some items (again more or less). Then I add gregs tech into the game and everything was different. Super expensive recipes (To be argued, and mainly in comparison to the "vanilla" IC2 recipes), super slow machines (again mostly when compared to "vanilla" IC2), and completely different ways of getting things such as iridium. Finding all this made me go "Wow, why the heck would anyone want to mess around with a mod as perfect as IC2?". So what did I do? Well I took the mod out of my game and never looked back, (Joking). Well this was my first reaction, but then I stopped myself and starting thinking "well, you know obviously this is how someone else thinks that IC2 should be balanced which is cool I can understand that. I like how IC2 is but lets see what else this mod has to offer." You see I kept an open mind about the mod and then quickly found out that pretty much everything I didn't agree about the mod could be turned off via configs, and when I did this what was I left with? Well I was left with a mod that adds some really really amazing end game items that give me more to push for, more to go after even after I would have far by passed "vanilla" IC2.
So even though somethings may not work for some people (EE2, IC2, Gregtech, FTB mod pack, Technic mod pack). You have to let people make there own choices and be happy that they are not an exact clone of you (Good god would that be terrible). Choices are what make things like minecraft enjoyable, don't take that away from anyone else by forcing your opinion on anyone other then yourself.
Sure, Steve's carts gets nerfed, and damaged, by the changes to ic2.
It's changed from needing charcoal to power it's one crafting block, a few things smelted (hardener), and crafting steps, to a mod that is dependent on ic2, due to the block compression requirement.
If it was already balanced, then this adds additional costs and they are imbalanced additional costs, that defines nerf.
So, I'm willing to compromise my thoughts, I always am when evidence is brought, this should be true of anybody who wants to think themselves rational.
So, what can be done with gregtech to make it not harmful to other mods, and yet help it to keep ic2 balanced?
I think the block compression is going to have to go, I'd have a really hard time calling myself okay with the changes it makes, as long as you need to compress blocks. I'm even okay with having to smelt blocks down.
It's changed from needing charcoal to power it's one crafting block, a few things smelted (hardener), and crafting steps, to a mod that is dependent on ic2, due to the block compression requirement.
If it was already balanced, then this adds additional costs and they are imbalanced additional costs, that defines nerf.
So, I'm willing to compromise my thoughts, I always am when evidence is brought, this should be true of anybody who wants to think themselves rational.
So, what can be done with gregtech to make it not harmful to other mods, and yet help it to keep ic2 balanced?
I think the block compression is going to have to go, I'd have a really hard time calling myself okay with the changes it makes, as long as you need to compress blocks. I'm even okay with having to smelt blocks down.
You can use both Charcoal and Coal to power it, which is the same as it always was.
You can also use a powered furnace, plus, there is nothing in the Gregtech config about Steve's carts (which it most likely would be there considering everything else), so I doubt it is Greg Tech that changed it.
Oh no, you have to build a compressor, which is a machine block, an electronic circuit and 6 smoothstone. Not exactly hard to build and with some of the complexity of Steve Carts parts, you can work on another item you will need whilst it is compressing, or do you stand there and watch it? I should also mention the Singularity Compressor which is much faster if you just have to stand there and watch it.
So really, nothing much and nothing really that makes things more tedious. So really, that's just complaining because it's different.
You can also use a powered furnace, plus, there is nothing in the Gregtech config about Steve's carts (which it most likely would be there considering everything else), so I doubt it is Greg Tech that changed it.
Oh no, you have to build a compressor, which is a machine block, an electronic circuit and 6 smoothstone. Not exactly hard to build and with some of the complexity of Steve Carts parts, you can work on another item you will need whilst it is compressing, or do you stand there and watch it? I should also mention the Singularity Compressor which is much faster if you just have to stand there and watch it.
So really, nothing much and nothing really that makes things more tedious. So really, that's just complaining because it's different.
I didn't say it was a big nerf, I said it was a nerf.
I was asked to back up that it damages other mods, I did. Without gregtech installed steves carts requires no outside power system, with it installed, it does, simple and to the point.
I was asked to back up that it damages other mods, I did. Without gregtech installed steves carts requires no outside power system, with it installed, it does, simple and to the point.
No, Steve's carts has always needed a fuel source to make carts (at least for the most recent version), so nothing has changed.
But if you have Gregtech installed you are most likely going to go down the IC route at some point anyway, so setting up a quick compressor system isn't going to be that bad. You will need rails for Steve's carts, which, with Railcraft, needs creosote oil, which produces Coal Coke which happens to be very good in a generator for making EU. I haven't gone far out of my way and it's not like I am wasting resources as the Coal Coke is a by product of making the necessary Creosote oil.
You see, it isn't that bad and I don't find annoying or irritating at all, if it really bothers you (and yes, going back to this), then it's an easy change in the config.
You see, it isn't that bad and I don't find annoying or irritating at all, if it really bothers you (and yes, going back to this), then it's an easy change in the config.
While it's nice to hear you say it, what you are saying does not matter, I just illustrated a nerf to steves carts. This backs my statement that the compressed blocks should not be a default requirement in the cfg. I was asked to back up my statement, and I did. I'm not here to argue opinions.
Can you stop with the config arguments? We know configuring is possible. Getting kind of tired about that. We are talking about how the default configuration alters the pack, it is what people are going to use if they didn't read up on it beforehand.
and how we can keep as much of gregtech as possible, without causing trouble for new players.
I would also like to propose that we split the subject to discussing server vs single player packs.
I would also like to propose that we split the subject to discussing server vs single player packs.
This cuts both ways though. If you admit that his changes aren't actually making anything harder, then there's no point in including those changes, and especially no reason to praise them for "adding challenge".[DOUBLEPOST=1354672468][/DOUBLEPOST]
It's not extending the playability of IC; it's extending the time you have to play vanilla before you are allowed to use IC. I think everyone is fine with the new things he adds; the problem is switching all the useful IC recipes to be out of reach until you play vanilla for a long time.
I'd be fine with the Rotary Macerator and Overclockers being more expensive (which they are in GT, plus the Rotary is from an add-on mod anyway and not base IC), but that's not a reason to make the intro macerator unavailable until you use all the other mods. Currently you can't build a normal macerator until you have enough to build the Rotary so the normal one is pointless.
Again, then make the Advanced solars more expensive. Currently there's no point to the noob solar because by the time you can make it you've got enough resources to go right to advanced solar.
Yes, I know all these things. I was talking about new players, and how they find all of this stuff pretty confusing, and don't fit into the "bah all the non-GT mods are so easy because you get everything in five seconds" mold that people think GT fixes.
If the "fun" comes from just switching recipes around so the ones you memorized are now wrong and you have to go read a wiki or use NEI to figure out how to now do what you used to do, then again, that's only fun for people who have memorized the old mods, and confusing for people who are new and can't figure out why every FTB server has different recipes for IC items and why they can't follow any youtube tutorials on how to use IC or anything like that.
I don't think anyone cares about making the Quantum suit harder to get. I know I don't. I'm more annoyed at making the intro tier machines and items require a bunch of hoops to jump through.
Why is Gregtech configured to make quantum armor harder to get but not nerf the armor directly? That is possible, you can take out the fire protection, invincibility etc. but they are all still enabled in FTB. If the problem was getting quantum too fast and therefore basically ending the game because it's too good why not nerf the item directly? You don't want to lose your toy, is that it?
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