GregTech Debate Thread

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Pinkishu

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and then upgrade it almost instantly to advanced solar... obsolete before you can even make it. Does that seem right?
Well advanced alloys are obsolete till you"upgrade" the to begin with

Diamond tools aren't a must-have? How are you gonna get to the nether?
By different power grids, s/he means the mixture of IC2 EU, BC2 MJ, RP2 Blutricity, and Factorization's whatever-that-is. Since TE does a lot of the same things as IC2's machines, you could easily just remove IC2 and use TE's machines for the same purpose, and have one less power grid to maintain. The only thing I'd miss is the electric tools, really.
I know what he/she means, I just don't get whats so horrible about different power Grids :p

It doesn't NEED to change IC2 recipes to be balanced. It adds huge amounts of really expensive energy storage. It basically could stand on its own as an extension to IC2 that does not much more than adding another tier to the end of the tree. With the AESU and such being expensive as they are, you would have a lot more use for that extra energy from the lightning rod, and the lightning rod doesn't even work all the time anyway. Only reliably when it's storming, and much less reliably when it's regular raining.
Well from what I've seen the actually expensive part in those recipes actually is the iridium. :3 atleast the recipes i've seen so far in the current GT version thats in FTB. And well GT nerfed iridium production


I haven't seen many complaints about the new matter fabricator, personally. It's just nearly every other recipe change. Changing the recipes isn't really rebalancing them. It's just making you have to play more "vanilla" MC before you can really get started with the mods, which for many of us isn't fun. We play mods because we're tired of vanilla. More vanilla before we can play with mod stuff isn't fun.
Well no, you don't you have plenty other mods to use :p If at all it makes you play other mods (e.g. railcraft/blast furnace) or so~


@Nether:
use Lava + Water cells to make obsidian
use Igneous Extruder to make obsidian
pour the gate instead of building it out of obsidian
use Survivalists Pickaxe to get Obsidian
and others mentioned some ways too
 
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Antice

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Very easily. I can start the game and doing nothing less than gathering wood and digging down to find 4 iron and 1 flint, I can come back from the nether with netherrack, netherbrick, blaze rods, glowstone, soulsand and magma creams without dying.
On hard mode even.
I once saw a challenge vid for vanilla minecraft where some dude went to the nether and killed a ghast in under 15 minutes. the only thing slowing him down was the lack of easy access to lava.

I tried it myself and went to the nether in less than 10 minutes tho. spawned near a surface lava pool and water. only had to chop a tree and get the 4 iron from a nearby cave. the flint was actually the slowest part to find. had to search a bit for gravel before i found it. otoh. the ghast did me in cuz i was starving and was unable to regen. I should maybe have spent a minute or 2 getting some food :oops:
 

Pinkishu

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Noting:

I don't think I've seen much exciting or new things in vanilla IC2 for about a year now, the updates seem slowish and mostly just bugfixes, suggestions are denied over and over again, new mods popup that have same-ish functionality to what most people use IC for (macerating and smelting)
It feels a little like IC merges into the mass, imo gregtech gives it a fresh wind, makes it more interesting and standing out agian (in a positive way)
 
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makeshiftwings

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I don't think it's a big deal that noob solars, windmills, and water mills give you "infinite" power, because the power output is small and you need to play for a while before you have the resources to make your first few solars and machines. That's pretty much the point of those generators. A normal generator is way cheaper, and chopping down some trees to make charcoal really isn't that difficult. The only time solars get overpowered is if you have tons of Advanced ones, so if that's really an issue and you feel like you need a mod to "force" you to use coal or lava instead, then it should nerf the advanced ones so you can be forced to use the one you don't like. I think the noob generators need to stay simple so new players have a starting point.

Personally I think it's stupid that so many "challenge" seekers think they need someone else to write a second mod to nerf a first mod so they are "forced" to not use the features of the first mod that they liked; it's like a weird minecrafty masochistic complex. The one thing I *don't* want in a modpack is a mod that forces me to not use one of the mods in the modpack... if I wanted to force myself to not use IC I would just not install IC.
 
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WTFFFS

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I don't think it's a big deal that noob solars, windmills, and water mills give you "infinite" power, because the power output is small and you need to play for a while before you have the resources to make your first few solars and machines. That's pretty much the point of those generators. A normal generator is way cheaper, and chopping down some trees to make charcoal really isn't that difficult. The only time solars get overpowered is if you have tons of Advanced ones, so if that's really an issue and you feel like you need a mod to "force" you to use coal or lava instead, then it should nerf the advanced ones so you can be forced to use the one you don't like. I think the noob generators need to stay simple so new players have a starting point.

Personally I think it's stupid that so many "challenge" seekers think they need someone else to write a second mod to nerf a first mod so they are "forced" to not use the features of the first mod that they liked; it's like a weird minecrafty masochistic complex. The one thing I *don't* want in a modpack is a mod that forces me to not use one of the mods in the modpack... if I wanted to force myself to not use IC I would just not install IC.
One of the things I like as a "challenge seeker" with Gregtech is that I can use these horribly cheap\overpowered, gens\machines without feeling forced to avoid their use due to their cheapness\overpoweredness since Gregtech balances around the fact you have them (also they are fun to play with and having to limit myself to not using them is annoying). The most overpowered gen is probably the Geothermal even filling cells manually you can easily run 7 or so (with a bit of RSI from clicking) and get steady MV from that few resources?
 

Zelfana

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I know what he/she means, I just don't get whats so horrible about different power Grids :p
Nothing is horrible about different power grids but you waste less time making different power grids. Never said I hate different powers but it's certainly simpler to only have one. It gives the feeling of actual synergy and not just forced synergy which is what GT does.

One of the things I like as a "challenge seeker" is with Gregtech is that I can use these horribly cheap\overpowered, gens\machines without feeling forced to avoid their use due to their cheapness\overpoweredness since Gregtech balances around the fact you have them (also they are fun to play with and having to limit myself to not using them is annoying). The most overpowered gen is probably the Geothermal even filling cells manually you can easily run 7 or so (with a bit of RSI from clicking) and get steady MV from that few resources?
Recycling cobblestone is still in, just saying. Actually, the Recycler itself is kind of OP and unnecessary imo.
 

Kimikaze

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I generally don't like mods that focuses on only being a big time sink. That might be a good way to add some sort of optional endgame on top of IC2, but I'm not a fan of the changes to the first tier of machines.
 
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Morvelaira

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Okay? So it's fine because they are different mods. It's not like this is supposed to be a modpack or anything...
I'd like to point out that it's not necesarily the responsibility of FTB to provide a fully balanced play through of modded Minecraft, especially when combining a large number of mods made by an equally large and disparate number of developers, each with their own vision. To have a purpose behind the mods we select? Yes. To ensure that they all function properly without technical issue? Yes. But to gauruntee that it will be a fully developed and linear (or multi-branched linear) play experience? Nope. Not our job.

FTB was originally created as a map, and a set of mods to go with that map in order to accomplish the goals that the map set out. When the FTB Map Pack is available, that particular pack will follow that same aim. The other packs are here to provide interesting play experiences with modded Minecraft. Note interesting is not the same thing as balanced. I cannot give you the reasoning why some configurations for GregTech were set the way they are in the FTB pack. For all I know, they could have been left at default except for what was needed to resolve any technical difficulties. While I, personally, don't believe the Mod Pack Team has any responsibility to edit the configs for the sake of game balance outside the Map Pack, I do hope they at least give it a cursory glance. :)
 

ShneekeyTheLost

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My two cents on the topic:

I've been playing around with IC2 since... oh, probably around the 1.0 official release. In all that time, I've never once made quantum armor. I've never build a massfab. I've never really felt the need. It really didn't fit in with my play style.

When I first saw GregTech on the IC2 forums, I was certain that it was a deliberate troll (after all, the IC2 boards have a self-titled 'certified a$$hole', and newbies are invariably ridiculed for asking questions...). It had things in there that the devs had repeatedly shot down (lightning rods). Its only existence, I felt, was to point and laugh at the 'newbs' who were dumb enough to install it.

Again, not saying that this is correct, merely stating my initial impressions.

It makes building and maintaining your infrastructure universally more difficult. It doesn't do it in an interesting fashion, it just uses 'artificial difficulty' means (i.e. requiring diamonds for macerator, requiring steel for drills). If it had pulled a Railcraft (making it require more infrastructure to get going, but actually ends up being a little bit cheaper in the long run), I wouldn't have had as big a problem with it. As it stands, however, it just feels punitive rather than progressive.

I have no interest in the 'uber tech' which GregTech offers. None. Zero. It is all on a level of 'why even bother to do this? By the time I get close, the next version will be out, and I'll just have to start over on a new map'. I am a casual player. I don't have that many hours to devote to minecraft.

FTB pack is great for people new to modded minecraft because it's just click and play. But GregTech just isn't. It changes up all the recipes and makes many of them harder. When I first saw it, I figured that this was deliberately and maliciously done to troll newbies , and that the creator was laughing up his sleeve over it.

Having said that, I know why GregTech was included. Look at Feed The Beast. It's designed to be a challenge. And that is precisely what GregTech brings. It makes things more challenging, and the UberTech stuff in GregTech make for excellent items to sacrifice to The Beast in order to complete the monument.

However, my honest suggestion to anyone new to using mods is to just remove this one entirely from the mod pack before playing and get the hang of things before going into the deep end with this mod.
 

Golrith

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I've disabled GregTech in FTB Beta purely for the following reasons:
None of the new techonology items in GregTech have any interest to me
Many recipes are quite complex (resource costs are not an issue)
The ratio of new ores vs the new tech seems unbalanced

But I like the following concepts:
Increasing the cost of the Macerator - using diamonds makes more sense. It's having to crush ores to dust, I always felt that Flint would be too weak to do this. This extra cost just slows down when you start doubling your ores. If anything, the IC2 macerator should have an item slot for a bore head, and the bore head controls your gain from ores (flint +25%, iron +50%, diamond +75%, iridium +100%) and also have a durability
Compressing Ingots to Blocks - again, makes sense, and "forces" the player to require EU. I've hardly ever needed to make metal blocks so can't comment on what issues this have against other mods. Again though, this is a mod conflict issue, as GregTech really is only designed to change IC2.
I'm kinda liking the idea of the matter fabricator changes. I did build a single mass fabricator in tekkit that was linked to a low power simple network. I got my quantum armour eventually, it was actually more of a pain to build a mfsu (my first) to charge the armour.

But, as mentioned earlier, GregTech in FTB is out of date, once an updated pack is available, I'll review all the mods again, especially the way they interact together.


As to the power discussion, my experience is just from Tekkit, but redpower power I didn't really need, never used frames, and only used a few sorting machines which I did power, but I believe I could have skipped all the power infrastructure by just having a transposer and tube before the sorting machine, making the power need obsolete.
BC power I avoided as much as possible. It just seemed clunky, especially with the unreliable engines. But now that we can store MJ and pipe it around differently, more reliable engines and alternate sources of power, I may use it more - who knows?
EU power was easy to setup, store and move around, and with the energy link and teleport pipes, easy enough to power quarries (once I had the resources). Only downside was the Glass Fibre Diamond cost.
 

Tylor

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My issue with GT is mostly with tools. IC was one of the very few mods that changed early game, giving early access to drill, laser and jetpack. GregTech breaks making game debute indistinguished from vanilla.
Sadly, Thaumcraft3 seem to follow the suite, moving wands and boots that were available off the bat to the middle of tech tree.
 

Bluehorazon

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My issue with GT is mostly with tools. IC was one of the very few mods that changed early game, giving early access to drill, laser and jetpack. GregTech breaks making game debute indistinguished from vanilla.
Sadly, Thaumcraft3 seem to follow the suite, moving wands and boots that were available off the bat to the middle of tech tree.
Well having a non-depletable Diamond-Pick right at the start screws the balance completly. Removing the Mining-Drill from early game was good thing and since it got replaced by the Jackhammer you can still remove Stone without the need for a pick. Removing the drill from early-game even makes the bronze-tools useful, which are normally all you need to mine the few ores.
 
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Tylor

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Well having a non-depletable Diamond-Pick right at the start screws the balance completly. Removing the Mining-Drill from early game was good thing and since it got replaced by the Jackhammer you can still remove Stone without the need for a pick. Removing the drill from early-game even makes the bronze-tools useful, which are normally all you need to mine the few ores.
Diamond drill is inferior to diamond pickaxe in many ways (but better in others). So, no, it is not unbalanced.
 

FMan_0000

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Diamond drill is inferior to diamond pickaxe in many ways (but better in others). So, no, it is not unbalanced.
Drill is both a shovel and a pickaxe. Also, It NEVER breacks. You just recharge it again. So getting it right on start it's unbalanced.
 

Tylor

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What is "unbalanced" and why it is bad? Is iron pickaxe unbalansed, because it lasts much longer than wooden one and digs faster? Iron and diamond drills fits nicely in tool progression, between iron/copper pickaxe and enchanted diamond pickaxe.
 

Morvelaira

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When people talk about imbalanced, they are usually talking about the ratio between effort given and benefit gained. To use the examples given, the pickaxe progression is generally considered balanced because of the progression of materials into upgraded units and the fact that their benefit is limited - all pickaxes will eventually break and need to spend more materials to replace.

The drill in IC2 takes away that replacement factor, and that is what many people feel make it imbalanced, as well as the relatively low enrty cost. By the very nature of the IC2 tools system, making the drill have limited use is not really a design option, so increasing the cost of entry is not unreasonable if you want to bring it into balance.

Did GregTech make it more expensive in a correct way? Ah, now that's a debate...
 
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ICountFrom0

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indeed it is Lira, though additional fuel to discuss is the entire question of, "Has it made energy costly enough to balance?" as well.
 

Meara

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I donno, im kinda actually going to ignore most of this thread (I'm sure a lot of it is whining any way) and just voice what i think as i have been playing around with GT a bit.

::tries to find something nice to say about it::
I like how it uses steel for the drill and chainsaw. I like mods that create bridges between major mods like that. More then just linking power, cause well that's Totally over done now.
However, I feel upping the recipe for solar panels was a bit too... time consuming. I dunno if it was just me but I found the industrial Centerfuge moved too slowly, to the point i found i wasn't getting ANY thing accomplished by even having it hooked up in the first place. Just to get the stupid silicon cell.. (Maybe i was using it wrong i donno). Also kinda doing the math, the work it would take to make a solar panel that way, it would take days for that solar panel to make it back. If it takes me that long to gain profit off of it's production there's no point in making it in the first place. When I would make a Geothremal set up from out of the nether. (Yea I did set one DW20s geo thermal set ups in the amount of time it took me to get the stuff needed to make the silicon cell.)

Personalty in that situation i find the mod... laking creativity. If it's going to make me take the long route home, it better make sure its the F*ing pretty route home. Sucking up currency, and time spent. Is a cheap way of getting something balanced.

Minecraft is about putting things together to make something awesome. not watching progress bars and numbers on an MFSU, at least not for me.
 

ICountFrom0

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No meara, you pretty much summed up the first few pages, though whining is something trying to be avoided.

It's been hovering on the questions, "How can the effects be reduced without making the mod too easy for what it rewards?" and "Is it actually harder or just less interesting so it seems harder?"

I think you may have edged onto a very important angle to think about, namely: "How can you interconnect other mods to your mod without changing the work of others?"

I've been grumbling about how the effects of gregtech ripple outward, not just through the collected IC2 mods but though the less strongly connected buildcraft mods. You, perhaps accidentally, have caused me to have to think about this.

It, might not be possible to produce interconnectedness without fundamental change to the systems of other mods or the underlying Vanilla structure.

I'm having trouble finding good examples, there's the slew and a half of engines, as examples of how the mods don't change each other, you pass from one to another and make the power network better and better over time, one obsoletes another as resources unlock progression, but they don't interlink. The same could be said of most machines, even if the connections between are a jury-rig of 5 mods, it's simply the best that could be made, rarely designed interconnectedness.

This is honestly a hard thing to sort out, and really hard to find an example of anywhere.

I, and I am only guessing, but it seems to me that you can make a change that links your mod to others, either by taking something that is otherwise unused and transforming it into something that other mods want or need, and perhaps making things easier, or set your mod on top of the others, delaying the time the content you have written until after others have shone, by requiring items from those mods (IF they are installed, else lesser crafting recipe kicks in here, like !factory mode in railcraft or uses of buildcraft assembly chipsets outside of buildcraft) in parts of yours.

With how hard this was as an excessive of logic, it seems I really have to lighten up on gt, hard to think about, how much harder to actually do?
 

Pinkishu

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As it stands, imo IC2 lost most of its unique usage territory to many other mods

Ore processing is better done in TE or Factorization.
Mining goes quite well with CC, BC or RP2
Mystcraft, Portalgun and to some point High-Speed Rails make Teleporters with their high energy costs somewhat bad
EE takes the cake vs UU (though i'm not a fan of EE2 and hope EE3 will be better)
Farming seems a nice gimmick but lacks much useful purpose and isn't automatable

Terraformers are still somewhat interesting, still barely see anyone using those though.
Trade-O-Mats are still somewhat unique, but you can build trade stations with CC, RP, BC~

The most unique point may still be the rechargable tools and armor.

Reactors, Solars etc does not count as it isn't a usable thingy, the only purpose of it is to produce the energy required for the useable machines and items


Newer versions of GT even hand you quantum suits easily by mining Sheldonite in the end :p


In terms of server balance, nowadays I find it hard to advertise IC2 without GT, as GT makes UU matter production harder. Iv vanilla IC2 literally 2-3 days people will be able to start pulling UU out of thin air, producing massive amount of much of anything needed.
If at all, I'd say IC2 lacks in depth. GT adds more progression layers and tiers to that (yeah, in return taking away some of your free toys and making you do something for it). You're bugged by complex recipes? Well go, make an autocrafting system. You have a problem and you can build a solution, that is what tech mods are about imo.


Sidenote: afaik Etho is quite new to modded MC and seems to do quite well; that is, with GT ~
 
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